back to article You're indestructible, always believe in 'cause you are Go! Microsoft reinvents netbook with US$399 ‘Surface Go’

Microsoft has revealed its long-rumoured smaller Surface device – and to The Register’s mind it looks a lot like the re-invention of the netbook. The new US$399 “Surface Go” has a ten-inch screen and comes in a tablet form factor. A Surface Go Signature Type Cover will set you back another $99, but includes a touchpad so you …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

    Not buying the latest Surface, or an Xbox one, or a Win-10 laptop / desktop PC... I used to buy at least one device a year, and sometimes 5 or 10 or even 20 for other family members and colleagues too. But I haven't bought a single Microsoft infested device since 2012. Just nursing Win7 for now, and installing Mint when its the only other option.

    Dear Microsoft Chairman, the Slurpage has to stop. My family and friends closed Facebook / Gmail this year. Our Android phones are now decontaminated and just run Signal / Firefox Klar. You can thank the likes of Vizio-SmartTV & Facebook for this! If there's no other choice we simply won't buy anything. Why? We wholesale reject the Surveillance-economy!

    1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

      Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

      Better stop using computers completely then, or stay off the internet. Onwards! Onwards to the past!

    2. Michael Habel Silver badge

      Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

      Well aren't you sweet. I very much doubt you will even be missed.

      While I have my reservations about the "Surveillance-economy" as well, you just might as well support it since the Genie has poped out of the Phablet, and has henceforth since refuesd to return. This agurment should however never extend so far as to encapsulate Windows OS. There is a clear line here, and MicroSoft have clearly crossed it. But, for the sake of an argument in kind. Where was the outrage when Canonical thought it was such a great idea to bundle your File Searches with Amazon results?

      If you really genuinely feel this way, why are you even on the Intertubes? Do you not think that the reassuringly tasty cookies this very Website serves up, doesn't also invade your pivacy again when you leave it? And, where there such an aurgument that this Site would never pertake in something so loathsome, then what about the next Website your get off to?

      There is a fine line between being woke, and an outright Tinfoil Hat nutter. And, your Post cleary places you into the later.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

        Well aren't you sweet. I very much doubt you will even be missed.

        While I have my reservations about the "Surveillance-economy"...

        Hold it. Did you miss the memo? In the "Surveillance-economy", there is no reservation. That's because you're not the customer, you're the product.

        1. Teiwaz Silver badge

          Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

          Hold it. Did you miss the memo? In the "Surveillance-economy", there is no reservation. That's because you're not the customer, you're the product.

          You're right it's not a reservation. it's more a zoo or petri-dish, at best a river with fishing rights to any corp that can manage to cast a tracking line into the water or tempt the fishies with an IOT morsel.

          It's well passed time the fish bit back.

        2. Michael Habel Silver badge

          Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

          Nope I got the Memo, alright along with the T-Shirt to prove it. The fact of the matter is no matter how loathsome Facebook might be. It clearly has a small use factor when it directs me to like minded Politicians. With a mind of giving these No-Go-Zones a right swift kick up the backside. Then I start to question if Facebook just might be worthwhile after all.

          Alas the local Populace being as open boarderly minded as the are vehemently ended up voting for the SPD incumbent instead. As was sadly expected.

          So it's not all just Pepe the Cat memes over there.

      2. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

        Where was the outrage when Canonical thought it was such a great idea to bundle your File Searches with Amazon results?

        I seem to remember quite a bit of outrage. Too much, considering how easy it was to switch off (and stayed off once off, unlike Windows, which I hear tends to get reactivated on updates).

        I thought it was potentially an interest feature, but it never returned anything useful (probably because the results were not matched out against your shopping profile and hence totally anonymous result wise), and embedding it in file search was certainly the wrong place - you search for files, you want files, not lipstick offers and other bargain bucket tat from amazon.com.

        By the logic of 'genie already out, give it up' - we might as well not try to fix any of societies woes and just retreat to our castles if we have them and let civilisation burn - people have looted raped and pillaged for centuries, why fight it? People have pick-pocketed and corps have ripped off consumers and abused their positions of power - we just let them continue?

        1. VinceH Silver badge

          Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

          "By the logic of 'genie already out, give it up' - we might as well not try to fix any of societies woes and just retreat to our castles if we have them and let civilisation burn - people have looted raped and pillaged for centuries, why fight it? People have pick-pocketed and corps have ripped off consumers and abused their positions of power - we just let them continue?"

          Very much this^ - have an upvote.

          But also, going back to the post that mentions the genie being already out:

          "Do you not think that the reassuringly tasty cookies this very Website serves up, doesn't also invade your pivacy again when you leave it? And, where there such an aurgument that this Site would never pertake in something so loathsome, then what about the next Website your get off to?"

          Your browser, perhaps with the help of third party applications, almost certainly offers you controls that can curtail this - mine does. Learn to use those controls, and limit the potential invasion of privacy. The more people who do this, the less data those cookies provide, and the more worthless they become.

          But if you take the "the genie is already out" attitude, you may as well drop your trousers and adopt the position ready for the next round.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Your browser perhaps with the help of third party applications, almost certainly offers you controls

            "Your browser, perhaps with the help of third party applications, almost certainly offers you controls that can curtail this - mine does. Learn to use those controls, and limit the potential invasion of privacy. The more people who do this, the less data those cookies provide, and the more worthless they become."

            The tricky part is, Web-Tracking always just morphs... Browser Cookies are only a small symptom of the larger problem. Read up on how Travel-Companies share valuable 'passenger booking data' Server-Side for example. Fixation on local cookie blocking or adblockers is just not enough to counter this sadly.

      3. Flywheel Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

        Oooh, the shill-ing is intense today!

        Some of us stopped being The Product some time ago, and personally I'm happy with that. Did you know that Ubuntu is not only flavour of (GNU) Linux? You might want to check out Ublock Origin, and if you run any sort of techie setup at home, pi-hole. That really helps. Why not try stepping over the line just once in a while and see what it's like out of the herd?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          'Some of us stopped being The Product some time ago'

          Self-Delusion is wonderful. Firms upload their accurate CRM databases as part of advertising on Facebook / Google. Data Brokers trade financial datasets with Facebook / Google (Experian). Hospitals share health info now with Facebook / Google. Shadow Profiles get created from Email / Phonebooks of anyone you've ever crossed paths with. Your home setup can never cut it. Mobile and on the move? The Reg recently reported how Google keeps tracking you even with Location-Services off. Face it, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT - NO ESCAPE!

          1. Flywheel Silver badge

            Re: 'Some of us stopped being The Product some time ago'

            No self-delusion here: I'm well aware of what the "free" service providers are up to and although as you imply it's not totally possible to escape, I go the extra mile to mitigate the effects. I no longer do Faecebook, Twitter, and there's minimal use of Google. VPN and Tor all the time I'm mobile. Again, its mitigation - if they want my data/metadata they're going to have work for it.

            What I find sad is the number of people that just roll over and accept what is offered demanded, all in the name of "free".

          2. nematoad Silver badge

            Re: 'Some of us stopped being The Product some time ago'

            We're doomed I tell you, aye doomed.

            Alternatively switch away from Google, Facebook, Microsoft et al. You might like it.

        2. soulrideruk Bronze badge

          Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

          I hereby propose the 'Shill Law'.

          On any given tech site with an online discussion forum frequented by technical people, in an article about a major tech company, the probability of someone ranting about paid shills approaches 1 as the discussion grows.

    3. DougS Silver badge

      Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

      Your friends have all done this too? How did you manage that, did you just stop being friends with anyone who didn't follow your edicts?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        'Your friends have all done this too? How did you manage that'

        @DougS

        Lots of tech heads on here have been the 'go to tech guys' for family / friends / colleagues for years. From fixing botched updates to cleaning viruses or recovering files. Many of us, like it or not have basically been Microsoft outsourced support. But we're heroes for helping. So when those you help ask 'what should I do about privacy'? How hard is switching from WhatsApp to Signal, or from Google to Startpage? Its nothing!

        @Michael Habel - @Geoffrey W

        Sure, be smug or over-confident if you like. But it feels like parents are condemning their kids to some god awful future Stasi-like state-surveillance / interference... For what? Some convenience / cheap tech today. Its a pretty dangerous tradeoff. But if this is utopia to you, be happy, you're winning!

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: 'Your friends have all done this too? How did you manage that'

          I'm not so bothered about the surveillance of such thing as much as the proprietary lock-in of things like faecebook as opposed to web standards like www and smtp.

          If faecebook had apis that allowed it to share across social media platforms instead of trying to become the dominant defacto web then I wouldn't feel it was so evil.

          Not that anyone cares when they are busy attention seeking and showing off their breakfast while reading the latest piece of long since debunked fake news which they will add "OMG" to and share it on for more thickos to repeat.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 'Your friends have all done this too? How did you manage that'

            In my circle it wasn't easy, just 'easier' after users read this:

            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44702483

            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44642569

            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44466213

    4. IsJustabloke Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: The Microsoft Slurpage has to STOP!

      Lovely shiny hat you've got there....

  2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Bargain ?

    The same price as my Yoga Miix 700 with 8Gb / 256 Gb. a higher res screen, faster processor and Windows10 pro

    1. Malcolm Weir Silver badge

      Re: Bargain ?

      @YACC... Lenovo doesn't seem to think so. The Miix 700 starts at $850, apparently (MSRP, of course). And thats with 4GB and 128GB, not 8 & 256, and Win10 Home, not Pro.

      Now, the Miix 320 is cheaper (at $349), but there's a reason for that (64GB eMMC, etc).

    2. joed Silver badge

      Re: Bargain ?

      I bet that for 400$ one can get something with proper keyboard that can stand on its own, better screen, CPU, user replaceable system drive and maybe even expandable RAM. Really no reason to suffer (not even a fruit logo to cater to true believers;).

      1. Joe Werner

        Re: Bargain ?

        Well... where do I start?

        The screen resolution is aready high. No need to go higher, not on a 10" device. I would say this is already higher than one would really need.

        And about the CPU: if you want to do stuff like vidoe editing get something else. I guess (I know from experience) that for most of the daily needs[1] this is good enough. Faster CPUs are also almost alway more power hungry, and for a device that has been designed to be portable this is a no-no.

        But yes, it is interesting that they are now bringing back the netbook - when my old one broke (after almost five years of daily use on the commute to wok) I could not get something with: decent battery life (8 hours), decent storage (500 GB), and 10" screen - which was by then even more important to me than before: ever tried working on a plane with a laptop? Ever seen those people trying to open a 17" monster in Economy class (even on the European regular carriers = not Ryanair, Norwegian,...)? And then after an hour or so they run out of battery. With the old Samsung netbook I had about 8 hours of battery life: enough for airport + flight or a full day at a conference. And a real (but smallish) keyboard.

        [1] heck, I was developing statistical methods on a two core AMD-underpowered Lenovo - during the weekend commute and in the evenings when playing around with new ideas. That was... a bit demanding, but the heavy lifting (=the evaluation with real data) was done on a cluster anyway. The only thing that really sucked was using Inkscape, for this I would have liked another 8GB of RAM and a faster CPU. I mostly managed to do that stuff in the office, so no problem there.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Bargain ?

          Joe Werner talks sense.

          I can do 90% of what I need on a 3 year old £150 HD screen chromebook that lasts 10 hours on a charge, wieighs next to nothing and runs ubuntu.

          1. Orv Silver badge

            Re: Bargain ?

            Same here.

            The main thing that would keep me from getting this device is the kickstand + detachable keyboard form factor. I often stretch out on the couch with my netbook in my lap, and I don't think a setup like this would be stable in that situation.

  3. Boohoo4u

    I’m curious about the Qualcomm offering. But an underpowered Intel? No thanks!

    LTE should be standard on every laptop or tablet...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I agree, with the codicil that there is a physical switch that stops all internet connectivity and cannot be circumvented. Barring the old standard RJ45 which can be unplugged, but that too should have a physical switch. Many of us may not want the connection woke via LAN.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They're clearly copying Apple.

    It must be be about crystal to everyone by now they're trying out Apple's business model marketing 'premium' devices with healthy margins.

    They're tyring to associate MS with high-end hardware, and assiciated prices. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a magnesium Win10S Phone surfaces in the near future.

    That said, that 15" Surface Book 2 is a cracker, slurpage or not;

    1. Michael Habel Silver badge

      Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

      I wouldn't be at all surprised if a magnesium Win10S Phone surfaces in the near future.

      Remind me what the definition of insanity was again? They even have gone as far as to distrory the only single western manufacture of Mobes while attempting to flog this crap that apperently nobody in their right skulls would ever want.

      So yes your right the Win10s Phone should land any day now. I look forward to the trusted review of it to appear in this rag when it does.

    2. DougS Silver badge

      Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

      They're not only copying Apple's business strategy as you say they're also copying Google's by adding data collection "features" into Windows 10 to try to monetize user information.

      I think they don't understand that you can't do both. One of Apple's main value propositions to help justify their pricing is that they make money off the hardware so they don't need to sell you to the highest bidder like Google. One of Google's main value propositions is that they make money off your personal information so they provide their services to you for free unlike Apple. Microsoft wants to charge premium prices for hardware, then collect and sell your personal info!

      They've already tried and failed to copy Apple before (Zune, Windows Phone) and Google before (Bing and buying Acquantive) but I guess they think taking two incompatible strategies and combining them will succeed where they have failed before...

      1. Danny 5

        Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

        Just because Apple doesn't sell your data (yet) doesn't mean they aren't harvesting your info just as much as everyone else.

        1. DougS Silver badge

          @Danny 5

          I don't suppose you have proof of your claim? Thought not.

      2. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

        One of Google's main value propositions

        Do Google even have a value proposition (on the hardware front, to a consumer) anymore, now that the pixel line is at 'VIP luxury ringtone' prices?

        Not to mention dropping services quicker than party election promises?

      3. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

        This Surface "Go" isn't an iPad copy - it's a continuation of a form-factor that Microsoft themselves invented. Against the iPad, it wins on connectivity (there's an LTE model in the Surface Go range too), storage, and the ability to run an enormous catalogue of existing Win32 line-of-business applications; it loses by not having a large catalogue of touch-enabled software, and not being "instant-on".

        I'd contend that Apple's days of being product inspiration are more behind it than ahead of it. What is the iPad Pro with its clip-on keyboard and pen(cil) if not a response to market acceptance of the 2-in-1 concept that Microsoft launched with Surface? And what about me-too efforts like Apple Music (Spotify), Watch (Fitbit, Android Wear), HomeKit (Nest) or Home Pods (Echo)? Actually, when was the last Apple product that couldn't be described as "a concept you can already get elsewhere, but with an Apple logo on it"? I think the answer to that question is "iPad", but that's nearly a decade ago now.

        And despite what's commonly claimed, Microsoft is not copying Google's data collection strategy. It has basically the same user data-collection model as Apple, albeit the scale of Apple's data gathering from iOS dwarfs anything that Microsoft does.

        And unlike iOS, Windows 10 also lets you see exactly what telemetry is being sent, and remove things you're unhappy with ("Settings > Privacy > Diagnostics and Feedback") - they were too late in introducing this, true, but it is there now. I've looked through what my Win10 system sends, and I'm happy that it's what it says it is: performance, load and fault data from drivers and applications.

        Basically - If you tell Windows 10 to not share information about your activity, then it does not share information about your activity. It's that simple. I'd like the other major OSes and application vendors to follow suit: let users choose, and If they choose not to share, respect that choice.

        In general, I really struggle to see a business need for a corporation to hold records of where I've been every day for the last two years (Tesla knows where all of its customers have driven to - am I the only person who finds this to be creepy?). Data mining is data mining - leaving it in a vault doesn't remove the temptation to sell it later. I used to work for Apple; after that, I used to develop software for Apple platforms; I have learned from both experiences that what Apple promises today can be gone on a whim.

        And it's not like Apple has made a noble stand, here: remember when the company tried to get into online advertising with its iAds platform? Yes, they would rather you had forgotten about it, but that venture was impossible to realise without using the user data gathered from iOS users to build advertising profiles, which were used to sell advertising. iAds was finally shut down in December 2016, so up to that point, Apple was monetizing user data with third parties. Exactly what Google does, in other words.

        1. IHateWearingATie

          Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

          "actually, when was the last Apple product that couldn't be described as a concept you can already get elsewhere, but with an Apple logo on it?"

          I thought that's Apple's explicit product development approach? See a segment, wait for others to make mistakes, pick so good ideas and make them work better, develop a better product, charge *a lot* more for it.

        2. Orv Silver badge

          Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

          And unlike iOS, Windows 10 also lets you see exactly what telemetry is being sent, and remove things you're unhappy with...

          Although, unless you have the Enterprise edition, they still won't let you turn it off completely.

        3. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          Re: They're clearly copying Apple.

          > the ability to run an enormous catalogue of existing Win32 line-of-business applications;

          Not when it comes with Win10S. 'Upgrade' to Win10Pro or so may be available but may cost more.

          > What is the iPad Pro with its clip-on keyboard and pen(cil) if not a response to market acceptance of the 2-in-1 concept that Microsoft launched with Surface?

          Clip-on keyboard/covers were available for iPad for years before Surface 'invented' them. It just happens that they weren't Apple branded but were Logitech or others. Apple seemed happy to let other companies have some revenue too.

  5. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    Obvious questions that will be asked

    Apart from the usual

    "But does it run Crysis?"

    there is the

    "Is the bootloader locked so I can't install Ubuntu on it?"

    The answer to the first is 'who cares' but the second is good to know.

    Provided MS has learned from the H/W issues that have afflicted several (or even all) other Surface models and made sure that this device does not suffer from then, it might be a good Linux platform.

    No slurpage or forced updates so what is not to like...? {don't answer that, we know the answer}

    See Icon as there were several choppers buzzing around yesterday as the Farnborough Air Show got underway. I can see the displays from my office window.

    1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

      Re: Obvious questions that will be asked

      Provided MS has learned from the H/W issues that have afflicted several (or even all) other Surface models and made sure that this device does not suffer from then, it might be a good Linux platform.

      This device's predecessor, Surface 3 (Atom), was a stable hardware platform. The higher-end models fell down by using cutting-edge components, which generally need brand-new drivers, which inevitably have bugs in them. This one, on the other hand, should be using lots of parts that are functionally identical to older components.

      Like all previous Intel Surface models, I fully expect it will be unlocked: UEFI, yes, but UEFI is not a boot-locker (it's sad that this even needs saying...). Microsoft really doesn't care if you buy one and put Linux on it; you still gave them money in the process. But it's worth remembering that Microsoft also doesn't care if there are no Linux drivers for some of the hardware (webcam, touch-screen, Wifi, BluetoothLE, modem...)

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: Obvious questions that will be asked

        " Microsoft really doesn't care if you buy one and put Linux on it; you still gave them money in the process"

        And I don't mind paying a hardware manufacturer for their hardware.

        The drivers are likely to be generated in fairly short order if the hardware is any good.

        1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

          Re: Obvious questions that will be asked

          Exactly. Although it's not a matter of the hardware being "good" or "bad", but rather it using known components for which there's already a compatible, or nearly-compatible, Linux driver. The cheaper a PC is, the more likely it is to use tried-and-true parts, and so the more likely it is to have Linux support (this is why Chromebooks make such easy Linux conversions)

          The only problem with running Linux on previous Surface (Intel) devices was that there wasn't Linux support for some of the hardware. Booting and installing Linux on every previous Intel-based Surface was the same as on any other PC: make the USB image, plug it in, reboot the system, let it boot off the stick.

          Where the "dream" fell down was that the system would boot, but not all the features worked. Same as installing Linux on a Mac, really...

          Personally, I don't see the point in paying Surface prices and then replacing the OS with one that can't use the all of the hardware's features. And as this is the PC market, there are many other makers who offer similar specced hardware, and some (like Dell) contribute to Linux driver support for that hardware too.

      2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: Obvious questions that will be asked

        > Microsoft really doesn't care if you buy one and put Linux on it; you still gave them money in the process.

        The whole point of Win10S (which this device has) it that _all_ software purchases will be through the MS store. MS want to make 30% (or so) of all software revenue. They will not get this if Linux is installed. They also won't get the slurp which they want to monetize.

  6. Jason Hindle

    So it's just the (none pro) Surface 3 with slightly better processor?

    Paint me unimpressed. Also.... This obsession with the Surface form factor... It's crap for using on public transport (unless you're in love with the on screen keyboard). Then there's the app store. I think Windows 10S is a fine idea in principle, but what percentage of buyers can survive entirely on the contents of Microsoft's app store?

    Edit: Oh, and the usual promise of an LTE version, for later, that will doubtless be as rare as rocking horse shit.

    1. AMBxx Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: So it's just the (none pro) Surface 3 with slightly better processor?

      Depends upon your use case. My wife uses a Surface 3 (old, not pro) as she needs a smallish device that can print and fit in her instrument case (optician stuff). Mostly used as a tablet to read text books, but also needs to type to send emails.

      This looks ideal if her Surface 3 dies.

      On the other hand, it's no good to me at all. I work at a desk with 3 monitors and a proper keyboard. Just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean there's no use for anyone else.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: So it's just the (none pro) Surface 3 with slightly better processor?

        Depends upon your use case. My wife uses a Surface 3 (old, not pro) as she needs a smallish device that can print and fit in her instrument case (optician stuff). Mostly used as a tablet to read text books, but also needs to type to send emails.

        Not judging the surface use case or your wife, but if your wife has a smartphone/ tablet, she 'could' use it to read text books, print, type email with a Bluetooth keyboard, while the device will likely fit in her "instrument case".

        I'm just saying because her use case seems to be very limited where mobile device could meet all of her requirements.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Abandoned in

    5.4.3.2.1

    New product released to replace that last failed experiment we no longer talk about...

    Who even buys these things????

    1. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: Abandoned in

      "Who even buys these things????"

      Well most execs / senior managers get Surface Pros instead of ipads these days so I expect this will find market space somewhere above Chrome based crapbooks.

  8. Bavaria Blu

    Chromebooks for schools and light home users

    I have a Lenovo Yoga andI never use the touch screen, and it is too heavy to be used as a tablet. These form factors and computing power are different.

    Also $400 is not exactly cheap, so this is going to be competing with lots of laptops already available.

    For me - either a powerful laptop, or a light tablet or a chromebook where the processing power is in the cloud.

    1. gfx

      Re: Chromebooks for schools and light home users

      $400 is a bit in the iPad range. I have a surface pro 4 but $99 for the pen is ridicules. It needs a AAAA battery every year which won't come out easy. Wacom pens have a coil for the power.

  9. Fat_Tony

    to The Register’s mind it looks a lot like the re-invention of the netbook.

    Not sure it's a reinvention, and doubt the name is an accident either - one of the first attempts at something like a tablet in the 80s was called Go. Think MS skewered the company that made it (there's a decent book by Jerry Kaplan called Startup: A Silicon Valley Adventure, read it ages ago but forget the specifics)

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