back to article Windows app makers told to think different – you're Microsoft 365 developers, now

During the second day of its Build developer conference in Seattle, Washington, on Tuesday, Microsoft shined the spotlight on Microsoft 365, its year-old swirl of software and services made by whipping Office 365, Windows 10, and Enterprise Mobility and Security (EMS) into a single confection – a suite. In vendor-speak, this …

All I want is an OS that I can control so stuff just works.

I do not want to ENGAGE with anyone.

The blue shirted acolytes say it all.

Spare me please!

45
1
Silver badge

Exactly. And my first reaction to that picture was "what an Earth is wrong with these people?!?"

9
1
Anonymous Coward

Look carefully on the backs of the t-shirts, they actually say

"I really wanted to work in an Apple store, but all I got was the crappy Microsoft store"

7
2
DJV
Silver badge

And there was the line "allow Cortana to make proactive suggestions"

ugh, sounds like Clippy sneaking back in through the rear entrance...

1
0
Silver badge
Coat

Yup, that sounds exactly like something Clippy would do . . .

0
0
Anonymous Coward

And it's obviously a contrived show of enthusiasm, for the photographer.

Still not sure why Microsoft wants retail stores... which is nothing more than imitating Apple. The only thing from Microsoft you might wish to pick up at a retail store are Surface tablets, but those could be sold at shops selling electronic devices.

Also, Microsoft is slowly but surely morphing into a Cloud and Data company, positioning itself as a rival of Google and Amazon. The traditional Microsoft vs Apple rivalry doesn't really exist anymore.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

"We want to do things because they're the right thing to do, not just because we can"

I'm sure that'll be really nice. Assuming you ever start

23
0
Anonymous Coward

"We want to do things because they're the right thing to do, not just because we can"

Oh, like those Metro tiles? Chummy, informal messages in Windows 10? Problematic Windows updates? Data slurping at the OS level? Pushing for Windows to have a walled garden of its own?

Were those the right things?

30
1
Bronze badge
Linux

"Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

So Microsoft turned Windows 10 into a Linux distribution .

19
4
Silver badge

Re: "We want to do things because they're the right thing to do, not just because we can"

I think someone kidnapped a Microsoft manager and sent along a look-alike.

5
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"So Microsoft turned Windows 10 into a Linux distribution ."

Quite the reverse. Windows 10 runs Linux apps without the Linux kernel. It's removed the need for lots of devs to dual boot.

3
3
Silver badge

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

They screwed that one up as well. When Microsoft released Linux for Windows they didn't bother sorting out the filesystem so you couldn't transfer files between the Linux filesystems and Windows proper without risking corruption. You also got the Linux directory tree mixed in with Windows directories (or should I call them 'folders'?). To cap it all, you couldn't use scripts to start Windows applications. (Not just Bash -- TCL is important in my world.)

All this stuff you can do with Cygwin, of course. But I daresay MSFT had never bothered looking at it, preferring to just flail away making rookie mistakes.

Linux on Windows is important, BTW, because outside the rah/rah of the applications 'experience' there's a whole slew of actual work related applications that are really Linux tools but have to run on Windows boxes because of corporate policies.

8
0

This post has been deleted by its author

Silver badge

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

The need to dual-boot? I don't even remember when I last did that. Virtual machines took care of that problem! Linux in Virtualbox is superior to Microsoft Linux hack anyway, because you get all Linux features without restrictions, but still have good data interchange with Windows (share any host directory as needed, clipboard transfers from Linux desktop and back work).

6
0
Silver badge

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"It's the same filesystem shared between Windows and Linux so its easy to share files. There are no filesystem corruption issues."

Not really. Windows applications can't access /home/ /etc/ /usr/ and so on.

Or rather, it is hidden in somewhere like

C:\Users\Katrina\AppData\Local\Packages\CanonicalGroupLimited.UbuntuonWindows_69fjdk2skdjru\LocalState\rootfs and accessing stuff there is not recommended.

I can do mount -t drvfs c: /mnt/c , then Linux applications can access the windows stuff with whatever permissions bash is running under, with no possibility to elevate those permissions.

If I want to access samba shares, I have to mount them in Windows and access them using -t drvfs, I can't mount as -t cifs.

5
0
Silver badge

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"It's removed the need for lots of devs to dual boot"

VMs removed that need years ago. Run Linux on the metal, Windows in a VM, and you're good.

7
1
Silver badge

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"Can you do that on any other type of Linux install? Didn't think so."

I do this (invoking Windows programs) all the time from msys2 bash. Virtualbox also has guest extensions to allow a guest to invoke pograms on the host. (Disabled by default, of course.)

2
1

Re: "We want to do things because they're the right thing to do, not just because we can"

Right. They must 'know' what's 'right' first don't they or do they just assume anything 'they' do is 'right'?

Right. Always right. It must be a comfort.......for as long as it lasts. I remember conversations with Cobol people so many years ago and how 'systems' could never be on anything other than a mainframe. They were 'right' right?

IBM does a better job of claiming to be always 'right' than Microsoft. They've indoctrinated their people better.

2
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"they didn't bother sorting out the filesystem so you couldn't transfer files between the Linux filesystems and Windows proper without risking corruption."

It's the same filesystem shared between Windows and Linux so its easy to share files if you RTFM. There are no filesystem corruption issues, but using Windows tool on Linux files is not recommended.

"You also got the Linux directory tree mixed in with Windows directories (or should I call them 'folders'?)."

Which is a major advantage versus a VM or dual boot due to the above.

"To cap it all, you couldn't use scripts to start Windows applications."

Yes you can:

"Thanks to this environment, it’s actually possible to write a Bash shell script on Windows and run it. Your Bash script can access your Windows files stored under the /mnt folder, so you can use Linux commands and scripts to work on your normal Windows files. You can also run Windows commands from within the Bash script. You can incorporate Bash commands into a Batch script or PowerShell script, which is pretty handy. Also you can run Windows programs from within the Linux environment. This means you can integrate Windows commands alongside Linux commands in a Bash script, or just run Windows commands from the standard Bash or Zsh shell you may already be using."

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"VMs removed that need years ago. Run Linux on the metal, Windows in a VM, and you're good."

But then you run two separate OSs with no integration. The Windows 10 Linux emulation solution is far neater. And in an enterprise environment, running Linux on bare metal is not often an option for managed desktops.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"I do this (invoking Windows programs) all the time from msys2 bash. "

Yes but that's a Windows based shell environment like Cygwin, not a Linux install. And anyway actually it is possible on Windows 10 on checking. Updated above.

0
0
Silver badge

Re: "Our mission is to make Windows the best dev box for you"

"But then you run two separate OSs with no integration"

That's not really true. What is true is that the integration isn't automatic -- which is a good thing, not a bad thing.

"The Windows 10 Linux emulation solution is far neater."

I suppose this is a point on which reasonable people can disagree. I don't find the Linux emulation neater at all.

"And in an enterprise environment, running Linux on bare metal is not often an option for managed desktops."

This is true, and is the only use case for this that makes any kind of sense to me. However, I'm not sure how it matters much. If you're developing for Linux, then at some point you'll need to test your stuff on a real Linux box anyway. If you're not developing for Linux, then why do you need Linux integration with Windows in the enterprise?

1
0

Blue one or the Red one.

Rabbit hole here we come!

10
0
Silver badge

Bah!

Upon being told "You're Microsoft 365 developers, now" the crowd went a very pale shade of grey and became unresponsive.

27
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Bah!

Probably because there were more than 365 developers at the event and they thought excess developers would be let go.

19
0
Anonymous Coward

Apple iPhone users, please talk to me.

Any of you really downloaded and installed the Edge browser?

Rephrase: were any of you so displeased with Safari that you downloaded an alternative browser on the App Store?

---

"Microsoft Edge browsing sessions on iPhone or iPad, visible via the Timeline in Windows 10, will soon show up in iPhones through Edge. "

"Bringing Timeline to iPhone, and soon Android, fits into Microsoft's goal of making phones a part of the Windows experience. "We're really focused on making your phone a great second screen for your PC," said Shilpa Ranganathan, general manager of Windows Mobility Solutions."

6
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple iPhone users, please talk to me.

"A great second screen for your PC". What a tit, no one will ever use their phone as a second screen.

She needs a punch in the face for that hipster statement.

"You shouldn't hit women", it's just a figure of speech ffs, I'd say the same if it was a man, it's equality innit.

10
1
Silver badge
Facepalm

JavaScript + AI + Excel = ...

I mentioned on another thread that AI (by definition) does not necessarily mean that you get the best deal. On average (whatever your definition of that term is), things may go well, but there's going to be cases where a Sum Range misses an important cell, someone presses Reply To All (if Outlook were included in this scheme) or JavaScript has some unintended consequence. Mistakes are a part of the pathway to intelligence, that process called learning. Whereas in the past you could blame the Key Caresser, but now the scapegoat is right there in front of you. All very well for it to show a sad face with a "Whoops" caption, but your only redress is to kick the 'puter out the door and get one that is better trained.

9
0

Re: JavaScript + AI + Excel = ...

Very good, you truly understand how AI works. Thanks, now I am not alone!

7
0
Silver badge
Mushroom

Re: JavaScript + AI + Excel = ...

My thoughts were just a little more basic and maybe a bit more pure

A perfect shitstorm to cause even bigger fuck ups in the company, which will take I.T even longer to debug. After which some pimply faced beancounter with an active browser session to "How to write javascript in just 10 hours..." Simply says "whoops"

Seriously Nuke this crap from orbit

13
0
Silver badge

Re: JavaScript + AI + Excel = ...

"All very well for it to show a sad face with a "Whoops" caption,"

That might work for home users, but our users really, really hate that. At least with a proper BSOD there were technobabble numbers and things which could be passed to tech support so at least the user felt they were helping to sort the problem and had at least a tiny bit of control. Now they ring up and say "My computer says Whoops. What do I do now?"

0
0
Silver badge

That video...

The first line of dialog from the video: "Have you ever had the experience of digging through your email or file folders for the document you know you wrote but just can't find?"

Not quite, but I have frequently failed to find an email that I know was sent to me. And it's because using Outlook on the desktop searching O365 Exchange back-end simply does not work reliably. I've lost track of the number of times I've searched for an email I know I've received; not found it; then used the list all mail filter ordered by date; scrolled down and found it. Only to then find that it now, miraculously, appears in the search results using the same terms as before.

17
1
Silver badge

Re: That video...

Actually, I have never had that experience . . because I fucking manage my email.

I have, unfortunately, been confronted God knows how many times to morons who leave everything in the Inbox, don't know what they delete, then come screaming for a restore at quarter to noon because something very important disappeared this very morning and they absolutely need it before noon.

So it all becomes my fault.

If only I had a gun . . .

0
0
Silver badge

Re: That video...

using Outlook on the desktop searching O365 Exchange back-end simply does not work reliably

Outlook search has never worked reliably - not when searching the server, not when searching offline folders, not when searching personal folders. I run "advanced" Outlook search frequently, and it often comes up with matches outside the search scope, while missing matches in it. On the other hand, it's also mind-bogglingly slow.

If Outlook saved messages in mbox format (dumb as mbox is1), or any other sensible format readable by text-processing utilities, I could find-xargs-grep2 a hell of a lot faster and more accurately than using the god-awful Outlook search mechanism.

1I know, I know. The mbox format dates back to BSD Mail and was used because prior to the frag filesystem, BSD wasted a lot of then-precious disk space if you had a lot of small files. It also didn't deal particularly well with directories that contained a lot of links. Thus mbox and its concatenation of lots of messages into a single flat file. Why MUAs like Thunderbird continue to use it, rather than putting messages in separate files, is a mystery, though.

2Cygwin, if you're wondering. I now have a Win10 machine (alas), but it's easier to keep running Cygwin than mess about with Microsoft's Linux integration. Back in the days before Cygwin, I used Windows Services for Unix (with a brief flirtation with AT&T's U/WIN), and Cygwin was an improvement. Maybe Microsoft have gotten better at this, but they'd need to be a lot better before I'm willing to incur the opportunity costs of switching from Cygwin.

0
0
Silver badge

Re: That video...

> Actually, I have never had that experience . . because I fucking manage my email.

@Pascal

I manage my email into subfolders (previously in local files, now in O365 after the mandatory move) and I have nothing in the Inbox except emails received today and not yet dealt with. Despite, or may be because of this, I still find that emails go awol when searched for.

0
0
Bronze badge

LOL... Java script in Excel.. as if there have not been enough exploits with visual basic.

13
1
Silver badge

As soon as I saw Javascript in that context, Meltdown/Specter fiasco came to mind. Could be useful here, so long as I use my network of machines that don't know the Internet is out there, tying into "machine learning" (really just predictive analytics, sigh). I've done it in Excel 97 before. God was that slow!

2
0
Anonymous Coward

>>as if there have not been enough exploits with visual basic.

Exploits in VBA itself have been relatively rare. That it can be used to do nasty things if you choose to run untrusted code is another issue.

1
0

"We want to do things because they're the right thing to do, not just because we can," the veep said.

Oh goody, so you are going to shut down the whole 365 cloud debacle and go back to developing software we control resident on our PCs then? You're Not? You're going to go on pushing a method of software distribution that has advantages for the developer, serious disadvantages in usability, availability and security for the user instead? I don't quite understand your statement then.

10
1

Why oh why...

this is called a solution, or for a more social framing, an experience

...does everything have to be a solution or an experience?

I suppose it could be due to marketing types not being able to define the problem and therefore come up with a solution to have a good (or bad) experience.

In the old days I can remember a thing called usability but now it seems to be UX (User Experience).

4
0
Silver badge

Re: Why oh why...

This is just marketing in action. In marketing, if you take an old, established idea and give it a new name, then you have new sales sexiness.

0
0
Silver badge

As JavaScript is popped into Excel spreadsheets

What could possibly go wrong?

4
1
Silver badge

Contradictions

This: ""We want to do things because they're the right thing to do, not just because we can," the veep said."

and this:

"Belfiore urged developers to have their apps connect to Timeline, to make the service more useful."

Are opposite stances.

2
0
Linux

Microsoft Developers

Microsoft's business management in general reminds me of the game Chutes and Ladders we all played as young children.

Developers? I see more Chutes than Ladders. More than the average for Microsoft's Chute heavy organization.

0
0
Silver badge

Shibboleth o' the day

Microsoft shined the spotlight

Ugh. Can we have our dominant irregular form back, please?

0
0

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Forums

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2018