back to article UK.gov expected to quit controversial harvesting of schoolchildren's nationality data

Campaigners have welcomed reports that the UK government is planning to cease monitoring pupils' nationality in its mass school data slurp. The school census, a statutory survey that takes place three times a year, collects a range of information about students, including country of origin and nationality. Civil rights and …

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  1. Zog_but_not_the_first
    Big Brother

    But....

    We were only thinking of the children.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But....

      Of course, if they know they are being monitored as kids, then they will have no issues with it as adults.

    2. Hollerithevo

      Re: But....

      But not in a good way.

    3. John Lilburne

      Re: But....

      And besides there is a Google app for that anyway.

    4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Gimp

      We were only thinking of the children.

      No.

      They are thinking about getting a clean load for the next time the data fetishists involved try to foist a national ID card on British subjects.

      This behaviour is creepy and smells.

      It's another case of the Home Office f**king up and getting someone else (in this case the schools) to do their job for them.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So are we saying that anyone from anywhere in the world can come to the UK and get free healthcare and education?

    I'm sure I'll get down votes but that is exactly what we are saying by not checking entitlement to services.

    Some people will be thinking that sure it's the right thing to do and whilst I agree it is, there is a point where you have to draw the line because the money to pay for it can only go so far. I would prefer a world where every country offered free healthcare and education but that's not going to happen.

    1. Teiwaz

      I'm sure I'll get down votes but that is exactly what we are saying by not checking entitlement to services.

      So are you actually afraid the entire planet is going to bus it's children in every morning just to take advantage of the increasingly barely funded English State Education system?

      I think that would be noticed, even without data fetishist levels of collection.

      Or are you suggesting the small numbers of questionable resident children be denied an education, given the fact that's it's the parents who chose to put them in a questionable situation.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Teiwaz, halving the number of pupils would give double the money per pupil with no increase in cost - double the number of pupils and you get half the money per pupil. It's not rocket science, it's basic maths and something everybody should be able to understand. So stop forcing everyone to go to school and only teach the kids who actually want to learn - the rest can go cause trouble elsewhere and stop turning our schools into danger zones of gang warfare.

        If you add people who produce nothing but are a continual drain on resources then you will end up with a lot less resources to spread over a much larger consumer base, and the situation will never get any better. Why should we waste time and money trying to teach children whose aim in life is to get on benefits and ride the gravy train for the rest of their lives? And why should someone who never does a damn thing to contribute have a better lifestyle than someone working for their living?

        1. Bronek Kozicki

          So stop forcing everyone to go to school and only teach the kids who actually want to learn - the rest can go cause trouble elsewhere and stop turning our schools into danger zones of gang warfare.

          and what will they do exactly, when they grow up? You cannot pretend "it does not bother me" because it definitely should. Even the most "optimistic" case that little harm is done, your taxes will be needed to maintanin rapidly growing prison population (rather than, say, health care for your older self). Unless by "elsewhere" you mean kick out of the country, in which case you do not seem to understand so many things that I have to give up.

          1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

            the rest can go cause trouble elsewhere and stop turning our schools into danger zones of gang warfare.

            That just makes the warfare worse. I suggest you do some reading on the dispossessed/orphans after WW1 and the steps which countries in Europe had to take to prevent them from being gang child soldiers. In fact, half of modern pedagogic has been developed in that environment. Well run state schools have proven to be the best instrument in taking these kids off the streets and making them normal members of society.

          2. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

            So stop forcing everyone to go to school and only teach the kids who actually want to learn - the rest can go cause trouble elsewhere

            I agree, my Gf's son is fucking useless at school and makes zero effort. You can measure his detentions on a "per week" scale. Neither of his parents seem to be able to do anything about this so im not gonna try.

            He's just about to do his mock GCSEs and nobody will be surprised when he scores absolutely fuck all.

            Then there will be year of futile attempts to goad him into getting his shit together , depending how that goes , maybe he'll score a couple of F's or E's .

            But then , get this , instead of being allowed to get a minimum wage job behind a shop counter , these days kids have to stay in school until they are 18!

            What will that achieve for him , or indeed for the non-academic but work ethic'ed kids who would have been straight onto fishing boats, bin wagons and building sites.

            who knew!

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              >What will that achieve for him , or indeed for the non-academic but work ethic'ed kids

              Apparently it keeps the ethnic kids from knifing and shooting the rest of us! For a while at least.

            3. hplasm
              Coat

              Some hope then...

              "...maybe he'll score a couple of F's or E's ."

              He couldn't give an 'F', but if he can score a couple of 'E's that will take the strain off...

            4. Andy The Hat Silver badge

              You miss the point - if they are in school until 18, they're not signing on and do not contribute to the woeful unemployment statistics!

            5. Jonathan Richards 1
              Big Brother

              Fact check for Vogons

              > instead of being allowed to get a minimum wage job behind a shop counter , these days kids have to stay in school until they are 18

              This is only true, and then only approximately, in England.

              You can leave school on the last Friday in June if you’ll be 16 by the end of the summer holidays.

              You must then do one of the following until you’re 18:

              - stay in full-time education, for example at a college

              - start an apprenticeship or traineeship

              - spend 20 hours or more a week working or volunteering, while in part-time education or training

              See the source [gov.uk] for information about Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

              And here I was, thinking that Vogons simply loved bureaucracy.

        2. John G Imrie

          people who produce nothing but are a continual drain on resources

          The old.

          Anyone with a chronic medical condition.

          The young.

          The unemployed.

          University students

          Doctors

          Nurses

          Police

          Teachers

          Tax collectors

          Bin men/women

          Ambience drivers

          Firemen/Firewomen

          Bus drivers

          Train drivers

          1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

            Re: people who produce nothing but are a continual drain on resources

            John,

            All the govt emplyees on your list dont "produce nothing"

            Binmen produce empty bins for example.

            1. Teiwaz

              Re: people who produce nothing but are a continual drain on resources

              John,

              All the govt emplyees on your list dont "produce nothing"

              Binmen produce empty bins for example.

              By that definition, no one in the country is unproductive, Every unemployed person in the country is productive, to quote Stan Smith of Roger the Alien (American Dad). 'inhaling groceries and farting out pudding'

          2. Vanir
            Trollface

            Re: people who produce nothing but are a continual drain on resources

            Don't forget IT departments.

            What about coders who do produce - produce crap code that over the medium to long term drain resources, financial, physical, and human.

            Now, let's start on managers!

            What do they produce?

            Come on, what do they produce? Eh?

        3. Stork Silver badge

          I think what you wrote below could with a bit of imagination be used to argue for forced sterilisation of certain groups of natives, e.g. 3rd generation unemployed. Think of de-industrialised UK

          My impression is that the vast majority of people who migrate for economic reasons do it to work, they may then ignore the paperwork. Oh, and I think it is quite feasible to be illegal in the UK.

          "If you add people who produce nothing but are a continual drain on resources then you will end up with a lot less resources to spread over a much larger consumer base, and the situation will never get any better. Why should we waste time and money trying to teach children whose aim in life is to get on benefits and ride the gravy train for the rest of their lives? And why should someone who never does a damn thing to contribute have a better lifestyle than someone working for their living?"

        4. Rob Daglish

          @AC - halving the number of pupils...

          ... would not give double the money per pupil, although it's tempting to think so, but schools aren't funded in that way. It's based on how many pupils there are in the school, the types of pupils, EAL, deprivation, all sorts. Have a look at https://consult.education.gov.uk/funding-policy-unit/schools-national-funding-formula/supporting_documents/Current_funding_system.pdf for more details. So fewer pupils = less cash in the budget. It makes it very difficult to turn around a failing school, as parents withdraw their child, and every time a child goes, so does a chunk of funding that could have paid for teachers or resources to turn the school around; it effectively becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

        5. GIRZiM

          Re: Why should we waste time and money?

          > Why should we waste time and money trying to teach children whose aim in life is to get on benefits and ride the gravy train for the rest of their lives?

          1. So that they might not but might, instead, find something useful to do with their lives.

          2. So that the State can turn to them later in life and say "You're qualified for XYZ so you have to take the job" rather than "We see you have no qualifications and no-one will employ you as a result - here, have some cash."

          It is, as you say, not rocket science, is it?

        6. JakeMS
          Stop

          Anonymous Coward wrote:

          the rest can go cause trouble elsewhere and stop turning our schools into danger zones of gang warfare.

          So your solution is to solve one problem by creating a whole new problem?

          That sounds genius!

          If you provide less education then those uneducated people will turn to crime to earn a living due to being unable to get a job. Crime levels will sharply increase and sure, our schools may no longer be "danger zones of gang warfare" as you put it, but instead your local street will be a war zone, your local shopping centre will be a criminal haven of theft and you would be robbed every time you walk out of a shop.

          Is that really what you want?

          Education helps lower crime by ensuring students are able to find jobs when they get out of school, you take that option away from them and they will turn to crime.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        >>So are you actually afraid the entire planet is going to bus it's children in every morning just to take advantage of the increasingly barely funded English State Education system?

        The entire third world planet, yes. It's been happening for years.

        1. Jemma

          Good on them...

          Because if you knew your history you would know that most of the third world is the third world because of the British Empire (the German empire at the time consisting of a small sausage factory in Tanganyiki) and western interference ever since that's royally fubared the environment in those areas and even if it hadn't all the knowledge has been lost because of all those British troops accidentally massacring or infecting or bombing or taxing the locals to beyond a subsistence level.

          Add to that supporting every sociopathic dictator that hit Asia and Africa and deliberately causing tribal wars for 200+ years and our record is starting to look a little suspect.. As the minister knows, of course, the reason behind the Rwanda massacres tracks right back to British empire interference designed to wind up the locals against each other instead of us. It worked brilliantly - unfortunately no one gave the Tutsis and the rest the memo to stop when they got independence (for a given value of the term) and they still hate each other with a vengeance (and possibly a clapped out Lee Enfield or Marconi Henry).

          And if I were you I'd stop whining about fuzzies and the yellow peril in the NHS because if it wasn't for them, there wouldn't ever have BEEN an NHS.

          We have, whether we like it or not, a responsibility to these people because we're most likely the ones that put them in the poverty stricken shitholes they're trying to escape and if we didn't - our government most likely supported the dictatorship that did.

          Children should not have data (bar minimum necessary medical data) stored about them full stop, be they black, white or sky blue pink. Data should be collected only over age 18 and ONLY with the explicit consent of the person concerned couched in a simple one line question.

          Do you consent to xxxxx storing information about you and/or sharing it.

          Yes/No.

          And use of a "service" like Facebook, the NHS, education or anything else SHOULD NOT be predicated on you giving up your data in order to do so.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "And if I were you I'd stop whining about fuzzies and the yellow peril in the NHS because if it wasn't for them, there wouldn't ever have BEEN an NHS."

            They could always pay market rates and get British staff.

            1. Stork Silver badge

              No they can't. NHS has always relied on imported skills, UK has never trained enough.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                >>UK has never trained enough.

                Because they don't pay enough to get enough students. Easily fixed...

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              "They could always pay market rates and get British staff."

              That would require a level of productivity sufficient to generate the money to pay them.

              The impression I have is that British unions have been a major impediment to that.

            3. LadyK

              It's not the pay, it's the fact that it costs far more for a person in this country to become qualified than most other places. Even nurses aren't simply trained up for the job but have to do a 3 year degree putting themselves into a minimum of at least £27,000.

              Plus, I know a lot of native people who simply don't have the work ethic.

              "work a 72 hour week so that I can come out with less than the checkout operator at Aldi doing a 40 hour week? Screw that" as I heard one young person contemplating studyng for a career as a junior doctor exclaim.

              I for one couldn't give a rat's arse where someone comes from as long they work hard, pay their way and have a useful contribution to society. I'll happily send my native "no intention of working, state owes me a living" neighbours back the opposite way.

          2. Teiwaz

            the German empire at the time consisting of a small sausage factory in Tanganyiki

            Ah, straight from Blackadder Goes Forth, lovely...

            On the Dictators and African 'troubles', well, not all the fault of English there though, although they did end up with most of Africa, it was the European statesmen and businessmen who had a meeting and drew up the borders of the African 'countries' that often cut across tribes and merged often historically warring tribes under the same 'flags' - inevitable that once the honeymoon of autonomy had been granted the whole nest would get unsettled at some point and old grudges resurface.

          3. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

            Ahh,,,

            ...most of the third world is the third world because of the British Empire...

            So... before the British turned up these countries had first-world social, technical and administrative systems then, did they?

          4. Commswonk
            Facepalm

            @ Jemma: ...possibly a clapped out Lee Enfield or Marconi Henry

            I think you meant Martini Henry. (It's difficult to think what else you could mean.)

            1. Daniel 18

              "@ Jemma: ...possibly a clapped out Lee Enfield or Marconi Henry

              I think you meant Martini Henry. (It's difficult to think what else you could mean.)"

              And then there's the delightful Martini Enfield...

            2. Jemma

              Yeah, welcome to autocorrect..

          5. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Because if you knew your history you would know that most of the third world is the third world because of the British Empire "

            Yes, if it wasn't for us it would still be the fourth world. We got resources, they got (slightly more) civilised.

            1. Jemma

              Actually no, they'd probably be in a better position since they wouldn't have been forced into using European farming methods - and royally cocking up their relationship with their environment.

          6. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Because if you knew your history you would know that most of the third world is the third world because of the British Empire (the German empire at the time consisting of a small sausage factory in Tanganyiki) and western interference ever since that's royally fubared the environment in those areas"

            Actually, the roots of the problem are the export to 'colonial' areas of sanitation and medicine.

            The sudden decrease in mortality, without improving the economy, infrastructure, and education doomed many countries to a slow motion disaster as population growth exceeded economic growth. The resulting ever increasing poverty and dilution of resources precluded investment in wealth producing economic activity - so creating a paralyzing spiral into economic and social disaster.

            If reduction in mortality had been left until the economic structure could support a lowered birth rate and general increases in well-being, many of the chronic problems could have been avoided.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Teiwaz

        Where do you draw the line? You say a small number but how do you know without finding out? Illegal immigrants are not documented so are you saying we don't even try and allow access to services regardless? They will not be paying tax as they don't have a tax code.

        You have a choice, allow anyone to access services or restrict them to those that are entitled to them. There is no middle ground, there is no "it's only a small number of people", there is no "it's the right thing to do". I didn't make it like this I'm just saying it like it is.

        1. Bronek Kozicki

          @AC for the last time. Do you know how the school admission system works in the UK? The parents have to provide proof of address, and for many schools, the obligatory part of it is a copy of council tax demand. There is no way to provide that unless you are actually paying the tax. Yes, there are illegal immigrants (far fewer than you seem to think there are), but I very much doubt that they are "usually" sending their children to public schools.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @Bronek Kozicki

            Ok then if that's the case why do the immigration service want the information? What about people that overstay visas? When you think of illegal immigration most people think of the camps at Calais however I'm willing to bet the majority of illegal immigration is people that overstay, so yes, their children would be in schools already. Do we give them an education for free? Where do you draw the line?

            I would like to point out that at not one point have I said they shouldn't get healthcare or education yet clearly people have made assumptions based on asking questions of opinion.

          2. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

            A British education...

            ...Yes, there are illegal immigrants (far fewer than you seem to think there are), but I very much doubt that they are "usually" sending their children to public schools....

            There seem to be a lot of Russian oligarch's sons at the top British Public Schools....

          3. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

            ...The parents have to provide proof of address, and for many schools, the obligatory part of it is a copy of council tax demand....

            So? They live in a house, and the house inhabitants pay council tax. That's no proof of whether they are here legally or not....

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          You know, this is why we got Brexit, you can't have a normal discussion about immigration and anytime anyone suggests we have any problems they get berated, however there are many areas over the last 10 years that have become mostly immigrants. I'll get down voted for this but know this, you are the reason we are leaving the EU nothing to do with old, unemployed or stupid people.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "you are the reason we are leaving the EU nothing to do with old, unemployed or stupid people."

            Yep I voted to leave purely on immigration. Jut wait until a few more years of global warming and the exodus we will get when third world countries such as Bangladesh and Norfolk start sinking beneath the waves!

          2. DrD'eath

            1 out of 4 ain't bad

            One of your statements was correct, have a down vote.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @ "You know, this is why we got Brexit" AC

            The immigration being talked about is Muslims (and presumably Hindus, Sikhs, etc).

            This will increase after Brexit because we'll still have the same number of jobs to do, but the immigration rules will make it as easy for an Indian to come across as a Frenchman. And as Indians will (according to stereotype) work for less than the French and be less prone to going on strike, they'll be employed preferentially. Similarly Pakistanis, Bengalis, Iraqis, Iranians, Chinese, most of Africa... all places with a generally lower pay expectation which will push down wages for Brits, especially less-skilled ones, as they can be replaced cheaply.

            So lessened immigration from similar, broadly-identical cultures and more from less similar, harder-to-integrate backgrounds. You can't even racist properly.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @ "You know, this is why we got Brexit" AC

              >>This will increase after Brexit because

              That will be our choice if it happens. I doubt it. We could make it like the Saudis and working here never gives citizenship though if we had to.

              What we WILL avoid is that when tens of millions migrate to the EU due to climate change and they hand out EU passports like confetti, they don't get a free pass to the UK like now.

      4. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

        ...I think that would be noticed, even without data fetishist levels of collection....

        Er... it IS happening. Stopping gathering the data through a census is an attempt to HIDE the fact....

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