back to article Apple: Er, yes. Your iCloud stuff is now on Google's servers, too

If you chose the Apple ecosystem because you don't, for whatever reason, trust Google – bad news. Apple has confirmed for the first time that it now uses Google servers to store chunks of people's iCloud data. Apple has used Amazon Web Services and Microsoft's Azure to host iCloud documents since 2011. Spreading chunks of …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That kinda surprises me. I would have thought a company the size of Apple and being cash rich they would have built their own cloud and sold it to others themselves, knowing apple they would then have forced any apps to use their iCloud. I also doubt Apple wouldn't use their own encryption on data stored on other peoples clouds, it's common sense to ensure your data is secure.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      But Apple would have to run the cloud on their own machines - since they don't sell real computers anymore that would be one hell of a lot of Macbooks!

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Plus all their old Mac Servers would be increasingly creaky by now, wouldn't they?

        1. ratfox Silver badge

          I'm not really buying that Google would spy on the data, but in any case I'm pretty sure that Apple is indeed encrypting the data...

          Of course, you never know who has the key, and accidents/bug happen. But then again if you worry a lot about your data, you don't use any cloud.

      2. Tim99 Silver badge
        Gimp

        @Yet Another Anonymous coward

        If they wanted the hassle, I'm pretty sure that Intel would sell them a lot of bare-bones rack servers without the pretty panels etc., and then they could run some Darwin/BSD hybrid using some of their own code base. Might it be something to do with the large chunk of "cash" that Google pay Apple to have Google search etc., on the Mac/Pad/iPhone?

    2. Lee D Silver badge

      Things like data protection laws always make it tricky.

      They would have to have a substantial presence in all the major jurisdictions and make sure the data doesn't cross international boundaries (except as required by users).

      Apple were never able to give me a data protection guarantee on where their data is stored... guess I know why now. Google, Microsoft and Amazon have always been able to do that, but if you use all three, who knows where things might be?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      They used to be a big (but discrete) EMC customer. IIRC the music/video was partly run on a series of EMC VMAX installations at very large scale. ~2012

      1. Korev Silver badge

        At a similar time I was told that they were big Isilon customers. I guess a company that size could use both though.

    4. DougS Silver badge

      Apple DOES use their own encryption

      As usual when it comes to Apple, El Reg is at best misleading when it comes to their headlines. You can peruse the iOS security guide PDF Apple helpfully makes available if you want proof.

      I agree it is odd they are using anyone's cloud at this point. What the heck are they using that billion dollar datacenter in North Carolina for, and the several other giant datacenters they have? Those are all for iMessage, app store, Apple Music etc.?

      The only thing I can think of is that Google has a lot more datacenters all over the world, so it is better connectivity (i.e. lower latency) access than Apple could provide from their limited set of datacenters that are mostly in the US.

      1. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: As usual when it comes to Apple

        As opposed to who exactly? Who is it that you think El Reg is favourable to? They always seem balanced in their disdain for all of the big players.

        Which to my mind makes you, DougS, a bit of an Apple fanboy.....

        1. DougS Silver badge

          @sabroni

          I never said they don't do the same to many companies, but claiming they do it ALL is a bit of a reach. They have their favored ones that get a bit of a kid glove treatment. Look at how they fawn over SpaceX, for instance.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Apple DOES use their own encryption

        Business continuity planning...or group think...we're too big to fail and so are Google...the banking crisis was supposed to have taught business something useful.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    PMSL

    Sorry, but I've never really bought the whole "I don't use <x> because of, <y> are better " as a reason for eschewing <x> in favour of <y>.

    As far as I am concerned they are *all* the same. If you don't like that, you either drop out of modern life. Make yourself a dinner-party pest, or (most obviously) mitigate it as you would any other irritation. Because it's not going away.

    1. m0rt Silver badge

      Re: PMSL

      "Make yourself a dinner-party pest"

      I am probably that person.... :(

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: PMSL

      Agreed, it's why I don't use the internet these days.

    3. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: PMSL

      Yep. Either tell me WHAT to use and WHY or don't bring it up.

      The answer is always Owncloud/Nextcloud, which is fine but hardly a replacement for a globally available network.

      1. psychonaut

        Re: PMSL

        how is owncloud? i was looking at that a while ago but got sidetracked. any good?

        1. TonyJ Silver badge

          Re: PMSL

          @psychonaut - well not sure why you got the downvote for asking a question, but hey ho.

          I ran owncloud for a while but switched to seafile. For some reason, at random I'd get data corruption on owncloud and could never track down why.

          But also seafile can do delta based synch whereas owncloud was always a full file copy if part of it changed - that may have changed since I last used it but it was on their support site back then as being something they had no plans to integrate.

          1. psychonaut

            Re: PMSL

            thanks tonyj, much appreciated.

            and yes, a downvote for asking for advice. could have been dr syntax as i cant be arsed to capitalise or use ' for forums...and as we all know, this is akin to being a nazi! i mean really....anyways....and dont mention downvotes! you will get downvoted! like this post will be. and then your life will END man, it will fucking END! a downvote! oh ! no! aaarghjhhh! the world is full of fucking narcissists... when you've got 2 kids and a mortgage, and another mortgage, and a roofer that you are sueing, a business to run.and learnign German. i mean, its not as bad as a post you put on facebook that doesnt get any likes. thats real death of the soul there. proper tears. jesus. ffs. oooh.

            unless its the russians. russian trolls, right here! on the reg! bastards!

            ahem. anyway.

            i think i will steer clear of own cloud then! thanks for the heads up.

            not even heard of sea file. will google....

            Muchly appreciated Sir.

    4. Jack of Shadows Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: PMSL

      Drop out of modern life and mitigate as I would with any other irritant. Only thing connected to the internet anymore (thanks Meltdown & Spectre) are the tablets. Both immune to both vulnerabilities although a Neon-lit target for any other Android vulnerabilities so it's a wash. Already heading that way when this shit hit the fan. And, removed everything from "the Cloud" as who knows when it might be safe to poke my head above the parapet. Probably never.

      Now that new/old Nokia looks interesting enough, and stupid enough, that I might actually use it. Guess we have now hit the second cyclic trend in American life. Buying things for what they don't have.

  3. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    iCloud to China as well

    Apple also said it is moving all it's Chinese customers iCloud data & encryption keys to severs in China so the Chinese government can snoop on it all.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-to-start-putting-sensitive-encryption-keys-in-china-1519497574

    1. DougS Silver badge

      Re: iCloud to China as well

      Not much choice - either do that or pull out of China.

  4. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    Redundancy

    "The encrypted chunks of the file are stored, without any user-identifying information, using third-party storage services, such as S3 and Google Cloud Platform."

    The question is whether those chunks are dependent on each other, and what error recovery schemes are applicable. If one chunk held on an S3 server, say, is lost or corrupted, what parts of your iCloud backup are now unsalvageable?

    1. DougS Silver badge

      Re: Redundancy

      Clouds like S3 and Google's have their own redundancy, so Apple doesn't need to add more on top of it. That would be like saying "what if your EMC array fails, do you have another EMC array to mirror to?"

      1. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

        Re: Redundancy

        A company's QA philosphy will be an important factor in deciding "who to trust" with chunks of your data. One of the beauties of QA is (in this case) the ability to trust data stored elsewhere. Does that "elsewhere" subscribe to the same QA philosophy that you do? Yes: that's fine, I trust you. But if not then you are advised to overlap your chunking with other hosts - hosts that you know are unconnected with the host that is untrusted. And so it goes. These QA policies need to give some specifics about where data is stored - not unreasonable given data protection laws.

      2. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: Redundancy

        @DougS

        "That would be like saying "what if your EMC array fails, do you have another EMC array to mirror to?""

        Yes, actually. Controller failure is something that I factor in. I've had cause to implement the recovery plan in the past too.

        1. DougS Silver badge

          Re: Redundancy

          Please tell me how you convinced your boss that you needed a second identical vMax to mirror the first? EMC arrays are resilient to controller failure, a typical SAN has dual paths so it is resilient to HBA failure on the host. What you're talking about isn't what I said at all.

          1. Mark 65 Silver badge

            Re: Redundancy

            Please tell me how you convinced your boss that you needed a second identical vMax to mirror the first?

            At a rough guess I'd say "if DC1 gets hit by a natural disaster we'd need one in DC2 so we can operate a full failover".

            Your question seems a little like asking "why do we have two data centres, one of which spends quite a bit of time doing relatively little? Surely one is enough?"

      3. vistisen

        Re: Redundancy

        Actually yes, its called a two site solution.

  5. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    Apple used Azure to power iCloud?

    Oh dear.

    Call Alanis Morissette.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Bah!

      Alanis Morissette? I don't get it...

      (then again I don't like her "music", nor 'that whiny style' from the 90's in particular, so maybe that's why I don't get it)

      But since Apple (apparently) isn't a cloud provider, they gotta use SOMEBODY's cloud server...

      /me thinks that if you store your data [strongly] encrypted, such that ONLY YOU have the decrypt key, then it could be stored in a publically viewable place and STILL be secure.

      [then it wouldn't matter who snoops or subpoena's your data, it will be worthless to them]

      Or, just don't 'iCloud' anything. There's an invention called an SD card. you could store things on THAT, instead.

      1. 2Nick3 Bronze badge
        Coat

        Re: Bah!

        Isn't it IRONIC he didn't get the Alanis Morissette reference?

        (Mine is the faded old Army jacket with a CD-Walkman in the pocket...)

      2. Korev Silver badge
        Angel

        Re: Bah!

        Alanis Morissette? I don't get it...

        Mr Byrne’s take on it

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Roopee
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Mr Byrne’s take on it

          Many thanks for that - now I know who both Ed Byrnes AND Alannis Morrisette are! Ed is much the funnier! Incidentally when I clicked the link I thought it was probably a reference to 'Stop Making Sense' (Talking Heads) but it was even better.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        don't 'iCloud' anything

        "Or, just don't 'iCloud' anything. There's an invention called an SD card. you could store things on THAT, instead."

        LOL, how are you getting on inserting THAT SD card into your iPhone? No, that's the SIM tray dear.

        1. David Nash Silver badge

          Re: don't 'iCloud' anything

          SD Card in iPhone?

          I think that was one of the points. Use a different phone, store stuff locally.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple privacy policy

    Clearly says they may share data, if you compare apple and Google privacy policies, its impossible to spot much in the way of any difference. If anything, apples is harder to read which gives them an edge in user perception of privacy, but its not real privacy.

  7. Thomas Wolf

    "If you chose the Apple ecosystem because you don't trust Google – bad news." Some/many choose Apple not because they don't trust Google's infrastructure, but because of what they do with the data. Just because AAPL uses Google (or Azure or AWS) as a big honking, distributed disk doesn't mean Google gets its hands on decrypted data.

    Apple's just being smart: as with their hardware suppliers, they're letting cloud providers compete against each other to get Apple the best price for what is essentially a commodity by now.

    As an aside, I thought I read a year or so ago that this is all temporary as Apple is building out its own server farms. Aren't some of their services already on Apple servers (e.g. the App Store, videos, music, etc.?)

    1. Dr Mantis Toboggan
      FAIL

      https://www.apple.com/uk/legal/privacy/en-ww/

      "You may be asked to provide your personal information anytime you are in contact with Apple or an Apple affiliated company. Apple and its affiliates may share this personal information with each other and use it consistent with this Privacy Policy. They may also combine it with other information to provide and improve our products, services, content, and ADVERTISING. "

      I changed only the case of that last word. If you think apple aren't harvesting and selling your anonymous data, the same as Google do, you are a fool and Apple truly deserves you.

      1. DenTheMan

        Don't worry

        .. you pretty little heads about it.

        Or should that be 'very little'?

    2. DougS Silver badge

      I wondered why Apple doesn't have their own cloud yet either, but I wonder if it has to do with connectivity for low latency access. Google has a lot more datacenters in a lot more locations, while Apple's are mostly in the US. Even in the US the large majority of people are probably closer in ping latency to a Google datacenter than one of Apple's.

    3. rh587

      As an aside, I thought I read a year or so ago that this is all temporary as Apple is building out its own server farms. Aren't some of their services already on Apple servers (e.g. the App Store, videos, music, etc.?)

      Apple run their own substantial CDN for servicing things like Apple Music, software updates and App Store downloads. A redditor who claimed to be a Google Engineer (yes yes, make of that what you will) reckoned they're more or less just using S3 and Google Cloud as dumb storage for encrypted blobs. This gives them a modicum of diversity/redundancy and allows them to play off suppliers for $/TB whilst also offering superior performance in regions where AWS/Google have Data Centres but Apple don't (yet).

      Unless anyone has cracked AES256 (or Apple foul up spectacularly and lose everyone's private keys), it's not something we should be terribly concerned about.

  8. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    But...

    What are all those Apple Solar/Renewable powered DC's doing then?

    I think El Reg should ask Apple....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But...

      Beard trimmers and latte makers, they sure do use a lot of power.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: But...

        "Beard trimmers and latte makers"

        you don't need a beard trimmer THAT often - just when you need to make a public appearance. Like "when do you need to shower" or "when do you need to change clothes". [my underwear is itchy, time to change it - ha ha ha ha ha]

        /me wonders if it's actually 'that way' inside the cubes at Apple. Heh.

        Oh, and latte is too weak. Cappuccino or Espresso [or Jolt] and don't forget powering the mini-fridges.

        1. onefang Silver badge

          Re: But...

          "[my underwear is itchy, time to change it - ha ha ha ha ha]"

          Underwear, I've heard of it. Isn't it that fancy lace stuff they wear in that Victoria's Secret magazine? Oh, that's a catalogue, you are supposed to buy underwear? None of it will ever fit me.

          "when do you need to shower"

          I have a shower once a year, whether I need it or not.

          Jolt FTW.

  9. Nexus1974

    Strange, whats their huge data centers for then

    That North Carolina data center is massive.

    Is that not for iCloud and iTunes etc. Possible their slowly migrating off of AWS/Google onto their own platforms, they do have a lot of users mind.

    Article does mention that all the data is encrypted by Apple so doubt Google/Amazon would be able to gain anything from the data anyway.

    1. Nate Amsden Silver badge

      Re: Strange, whats their huge data centers for then

      Was going to say the same thing, can only guess that they haven't been willing to devote resources to make the storage stuff yet.

      https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/08/apples-next-us-data-center-will-be-built-in-iowa/

      https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/17/apple-to-boost-data-center-capex-by-10-billion.html

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Strange, whats their huge data centers for then

        And the provisional one in West Ireland... What are these all for, anyone know???

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