back to article Does my boom look big in this? New universe measurements bewilder boffins

Astronomers at the Space Telescope Institute and John Hopkins University have used NASA’s Hubble Telescope to show that the universe is expanding a little bit faster than expected. The Hubble Constant (how fast the universe expands with time) was predicted by the European Space Agency’s Planck observatory to be 67km per second …

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  1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

    Some little galaxy ...

    ... broke wind.

  2. Aladdin Sane
    Trollface

    not a bug, but a feature

    The universe worked fine in dev, ops problem now.

  3. Martin 47

    Just a thought, but.......

    What’s it expanding into?

    1. Spoonsinger

      Re:- What’s it expanding into?

      elasticated old man trousers

    2. Craigie

      It doesn't really work that way. It's weird, I know.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Itself.

      http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

    4. Mage Silver badge
      Alien

      What’s it expanding into?

      It's very hard to grasp. It's just expanding. But not expanding INTO anything. Not even vacuum.

    5. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      "What’s it expanding into?"

      It's not that the universe is expanding. No, it occupies the same space it has always occupied. The problem is we're shrinking.

    6. beep54

      Oblivion.

    7. Faux Science Slayer

      "Mysterious Dr X says, Universe is NOT Expanding"

      In Time magazine interview, Dec 1936, the father of big bang said it was a hoax....

      posted at CanadaFreePress website....

      1. Sir Runcible Spoon

        Re: "Mysterious Dr X says, Universe is NOT Expanding"

        You might as well ask what your mind expands into when you relax and meditate.

        It's just a view from a different window. Really liked the story in the link, never seen that written out before (but have oddly always known it to be true).

        This is why we think there are old souls. However, having thought about it a bit, how come so many of my 'younger-me' lifetimes are 'later' in the time-span of things, everywhere I look there are babies, babies, babies.

        Perhaps they need to be loved and taught by those of me who have been around the block a bit? Still, not sure why I would have done some of the things I'm obviously up to when I get into power, I'll have to give myself a stern talking to about that when I see me.

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Boffin

      Nothing: there is no notion of their being anything 'outside' the universe (in standard cosmology: there are theories in whch our universe is not everything, but you don't need such theories to explain expansion). The geometrical properties of the universe, including expansion, are what's called 'intrinsic' properties: they don't depend on the universe being somehow embedded into a larger structure.

      To make things even worse, it seems very likely that the universe is in fact flat, and therefore infinite (or topologically very odd which I don't think is likely), and has therefore always been so. The sense in which such a thing is expanding is that points on it move further apart over time, and in fact the distance between any pair of points goes to zero as you run the thing backwards.

      (Before saying that this idea is silly and obviously wrong, read a book on modern cosmology.)

  4. RachelG

    It's getting faster quicker. Big Rip is on its way.

    I'm sure this is Brexit's fault.

    1. Aladdin Sane

      That'll be the inflation.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Dark matter/energy.

      The big rip will happen if the dark matter/energy is not replacing the "space" in-between. I'd say currently observations are that energy/matter to fill in that empty space cannot come into spontaneous existence... BUT...

      As we don;t know what the dark energy is, the force driving the expansion etc, I say there is still time to find out if the big rip is a certainty, or something else is possible.

      Theoretically, there does not seem to be anything preventing matter from appearing in the comic quantum foam in the big empty space left by a "big rip", so why would reality wait until then, and not be doing it small scale now?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Dark matter/energy.

        I don't think a "big rip" is even possible. As for the rest, you're hitting up a modified version of Fred Hoyle's "continuous creation" there.

        1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

          Re: Dark matter/energy.

          "As for the rest, you're hitting up a modified version of Fred Hoyle's "continuous creation" there."

          If the eternal inflation guys are right, then Hoyle has the last laugh on that.

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Dark matter/energy.

        'dark energy' may simply be trying to explain something that's a bit more elegant, sort of like the way geocentrists tried to explain planetary motion. In their model, each planet revolved on an invisible disk around a center point, and the center point revolved about the earth. it worked in mechanical representations, since each of the 'disks' was basically earth's orbit. And it "explained" motion by predicting planetary positions mechanically. but it was WAY wrong.

        One model I've seen may coincide with the observations a bit better. it would mean the universe is a bit smaller, though [or maybe way bigger?]. it's a non-linear way of looking at light propogation. The thought is that light travels "faster" over a distance. In under a few light years, the actual time it takes for light to travel from star to observer is roughly the same as the distance in, well, light years. But according to THIS model, vast distances travel FASTER because light is traveling in curved space. So in that model, the light seems to 'accelerate'. It explains a lot of the red shifting [not all of it] and the apparent acceleration of the expansion of the universe. It's also 'cool' in that something nonlinear is happening.

        Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. I forget where I read about this, I just remember reading it back in the 80's or 90's. Is it true? Idunno. Is it a rectally extrapolated attempt to prove the universe isn't created by the big bang? That's a distinct possibility [it seems to have been a somewhat liked idea amongst the creationists to counter 'big bang', though I doubt it proves a 6,000 year old earth]. But the idea that light does not travel "linearly" through space has other implications that might revolutionize physics, if it's actually true...

        (and we COULD be staring at the proof, right now!)

  5. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
    Alien

    Breath in, breath out

    Maybe the problem isn't so much with the maths, calculations or determination, but with calling it a "constant".

    Perhaps it's as simple as the bigger it gets the less there's holding it back.

    There; I said it. You know where to send the Nobel Prize to.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Breath in, breath out

      and we also assume that TIME is constant and/or follows our current predictions of relativity, and that light isn't somehow "lensing" due to the combined gravity of everything in the universe. If light traveled kind of "curvish" towards us (due to combined gravitational effects, let's say), we'd see distances as being farther than they actually are, through parallax and other means. And the farther away, the more curving you'd get, and really distant objects are hard enough to measure correctly, so is a 9% error THAT unexpected?

      Need a better ruler, that's all.

      /me imagines the sky through a sort of fish-eye lense, where the position of really distant luminous objects is slightly distorted from gravitational effects. that might do it, yeah. In that case, radio telescopes with finely tuned measurements _might_ be able to detect this.

      1. freecode99

        Re: Breath in, breath out

        Time is only an illusion that keeps everything from happening all at once.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Breath in, breath out

      Aaaannnnndd...your wrong.

      The edge of the universe is NOT rapidly expanding. I really wish people would stop pushing this fake science non-sense; but hay, what ever keeps the grant money rolling in right. But, But...We can see it. Why yes we can. However, just because you can observe something happening, that does not necessarily mean that your interpretation of said observation is correct. What we have here, is the failure to comprehend the concept of TIME and more importantly...RELATIVITY.

      TLDR; The edge of the universe is not rapidly expanding, we're just moving slower through time than it is.

      So, there was this really smart guy once, I think his name was Einstein. He came up with this really cool theory called Relativity, both normal and special. He posited that space and time are interwoven like a fabric; and when an object of mass is placed on it, that fabric becomes warped around it. The more massive the object the greater the warping. Now keep in mind this is not just space but also time. Time is not Newtonian it's relative, although for simplicity we can think of local time in Newtonian terms.

      There is another really smart guy named Hawking. He used this theory of Einstein's to posit a means of time travel (Into the Universe with Steven Hawking, ep.2). Dalorian not included, although with some modifications I guess you could if you really wanted. As we all should already know, the closer you get to a black hole the more time slows down (that's not entirely correct, but that's what most people think and it's good enough for now). If you were create a space ship and send it to Sag. A (our galaxy's super massive black hole), calculate an orbital trajectory that would place your orbit at a distance close enough to create a 2:1 temporal ratio (because time is slowing down - sort of); you could orbit Sag. A for five years to travel an extra 5 years into the future relative to Earth. In other words, If you were to clock that orbit at 30 seconds an Earth based ground observer would clock your same orbit at 60 seconds. If those ground based observers could observe you actions on the ship, you would appear to be moving in slow motion; However, to you, time is moving at a normal pace. But lets expand on this example of Hawking's a bit shall we.

      So, your on a space ship zipping around a black hole. Instead of Earth observing you as in the above example, lets check things out from your perspective. What do you see when you look back at Earth? Everything is moving in fast forward. Where above 30 seconds to you is 60 seconds to Earth, 30 seconds on Earth is 15 seconds to you. But, to each of you, 30 seconds is 30 seconds. The difference in time is relative in your location to the other. So lets expand this further. Instead of a space ship orbiting Sag. A, you have Earth, in the Sol system, orbiting a ~100 to ~140 thousand light year wide MASSIVE spiral galaxy known as the Milky Way. Instead of looking back at Earth, we're now looking out at the edge of the Universe. Given the example above, what do you think we should see? Ding...Ding...Ding...The edge of the universe moving in fast forward.

      Therefor, it's not rapidly expanding. Time is just moving at a faster pace out there relative to use, due to mass of our galaxy slowing it down for us. If you could take that same space ship of Hawking's and place out in the void of space, outside the gravitational influence of galaxy's, and observe the edge of the universe; you would find that the universe is actually expanding at a relatively constant rate fairly close to what we currently predict it should be. I guess I now know how Galileo felt trying to explain real science to the supposed intellectual elite. I await my Nobel Prize, but somehow i get the feeling i'll get the same treatment as Galileo...Oh, Well.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Aaaannnnndd...your wrong.

        Nobody likes a smartass, but...

        - the correct terminology for the supermassive at the Milky Way's center is correctly referred to as 'Sag. A*'. Note the asterisk.

        - "Dalorian". A what? I think you'll find you meant to write 'DeLorean'.

        1. Sir Runcible Spoon
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Aaaannnnndd...your wrong.

          Did that explanation take into account the acceleration that's being observed*

          *For various values of observed, obviously. YLYMV.

  6. Chris G
    Pint

    Dark beer

    Is a likely cause, it always creates a lot of gaseous expansion.

    Need a Guinness icon.

  7. far2much4me

    Dark Matter

    Yes, yes. By all means, blame dark matter. Again.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dark Matter

      So, are saying that Brexit is dark matter's fault?

  8. Stuart Halliday

    "It's not a Bug, it's the Universe."

    That's my new phrase...

  9. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    You will never know the horrible truth about dark oil, err... dark matter!

    The Hubble Constant (how fast the universe expands with time) was predicted by the European Space Agency’s Planck observatory to be 67km per second per megaparsec (3.3 million light-years), shortly before the spacecraft was deactivated after a successful four-year mission.

    As Fox Mulder would say: "A very convenient coincidence".

    1. Tom 7

      Re: You will never know the horrible truth about dark oil, err... dark matter!

      I was trying to 'explain' parsecs and megaparsecs to my 12 year old and in the end just said astronomers like numbers with lots of numbers.

      Beautiful night out tonite - already well below 270K so need to get the car battery out to the Dobsonian so it can cool the mirror in time for the rugby.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Tom 7

        Get "Space Engine" a *to scale model of the universe.

        *Scale is 1:1, adjusting for size of monitor of cause... yes, that's not a joke. You can go anywhere in the universe, and zoom in/out as per accurate as we can get with current data and maths on a home PC. Is an amazing bit of software.

        1. Blofeld's Cat
          Alien

          Re: Tom 7

          Get "Space Engine" a *to scale model of the universe.

          Sounds like the "Total Perspective Vortex":

          "... every piece of matter in the Universe is in some way affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation - every Galaxy, every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition, and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake."

          Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

          1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
            Alien

            Re: Tom 7

            Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.

    2. PNGuinn

      Re: You will never know the horrible truth about dark oil, err... dark matter!

      Hubble constant?

      That's so last bang.

      Post Brexit they need a new variable yurrupean one.

      How about the Bartysilli?

      I think I'll patent that ...

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: You will never know the horrible truth about dark oil, err... dark matter!

        "Post Brexit they need a new variable yurrupean one."

        yeah what WAS it with all the science-re-namey things. The first time I heard 'Sieverts' I was all "what the hell?" and then I googled and found out that someone changed the name AND 1 Sv became 100 REM which is like "thanks a LOT for making me do more math in my head".

        New 'SI' units meant "we were not very busy at that moment, so we did some make-work and appeared like we were doing something important for a while".

        So why NOT come up with something more 'European' than 'Hubble Constant'? You can't have British or American scientist names in things any more, after all...

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble

        Let's call it "Lemaître's constant" from now on, then. He's a Belgian [that's EU enough, right?]

  10. The Light

    Light

    Excess light and the weakening strength of sun's causing expansion

    1. Mage Silver badge

      Re: Light

      No, not excess of light. Lack of dark. The sun is a dark sucker.

      1. The Light

        Re: Light

        I bet your a dark sucker!

        1. Michael Thibault

          Re: Light

          "I bet yore a dark sucker!"

          FTFY

          1. Scroticus Canis
            Headmaster

            Re: Light - your, yore - or even you're?

            Meep!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      Re: Technically.

      I would say light is technically part of the equation. Problem is, which part. ;)

  11. TrumpSlurp the Troll
    Alien

    Hubble constant is apparently not a constant

    I presume they will keep on measuring until they either get the same results over a significant period of time or/and they end up with a set of results which don't need additional dark matter/beer/chocolate to make them acceptable.

    1. Tom 7

      Re: Hubble constant is apparently not a constant

      It is if you put it into Einstein's equations, well the ones he didnt publish or something, Everything else he played with is accurate to many many decimal points but this one doesnt get to decimals...

    2. Mark 85

      Re: Hubble constant is apparently not a constant

      At one point, "constant" worked, but apparently something (maybe the observations?) has changed. It might even be some "Doppler" effect or maybe the rate of expansion has changed?

      1. DJV Silver badge

        @Mark85

        "but apparently something (maybe the observations?) has changed"

        Yeah, the rest of the universe has woken up to Trump being President - now it can't get away fast enough!

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Hubble constant is apparently not a constant

      "I presume they will keep on measuring until they either get the same results over a significant period of time or/and they end up with a set of results which don't need additional dark matter/beer/chocolate to make them acceptable."

      Or it only seems like a constant because we've not been measuring for long enough to see the change.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The edge is nothing more than a ripple in the pond

    The edge of the universe is nothing more than the ripple you'd see if you threw a stone into a pond. What is outside the universe is the same as whats inside. We had a big bang and our universe is inside the center of that ripple. There are others, well outside what we can see beyond the ripple. It's just so mind-bogglingly far that it's hard to grasp. Think trillions or more of light years away. Much of our galaxy/universe would be forever changed before we'd see light from outside our universe.

    1. Shades

      Re: The edge is nothing more than a ripple in the pond

      "It's just so mind-bogglingly far that it's hard to grasp. Think trillions or more of light years away."

      As a Brit I couldn't grasp it taking two days to travel from Los Angeles, CA to San Antonio, TX by road. Still, some spectacular views along the way and I saw the Milky Way with my own eyes for the first time.

      1. revdjenk

        Re: The edge is nothing more than a ripple in the pond

        Traveled western US with some friends, one a guy from Sweden. He made us stop every 15-20 minutes driving across Kansas. He would take a picture. We kept asking, "Why are you taking a picture of 'nothing?'" (To us, the expanse of cornfields going off to infinity was nothing.) He just kept mumbling, "They won't believe how huge it is!"

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