Crowdfunding small print binned as Retro Computers Ltd loses court refund action

Re: Honestly....

> They're gonna have to call me "bipod" after that one.

At least it would stop me from tripping over it every time.

> As I understand it videogames have recently bombed on Kickstarter, because so few ever got produced, after taking the money. Oddly the boardgame industry have become their biggest growth area,

Board games tend to cost a lot less for RnD, artwork, and so on than a videogame.

Production cost might be more (mass producing the pieces, the board, etc) , but the time and cost to get to that point are typically considerably less. And you only enter that phase once you have a finished product.

For videogames it's the reverse, all the costs go into the RnD/programming, with production and distribution costs being trivial (because people can just download the finished game).

Re: "Remains trading"?

@Credas: The broad strokes of your post are correct, although you've missed some important details:

Between the original court order (i.e. the one that's just been made against RCL) and applying for a winding-up order, you have to give them a chance to pay, then you can make "stronger" attempts to collect(1) such as sending bailiffs(2), THEN you make what's called a "statutory demand", and if this isn't paid in three weeks, THEN AND ONLY THEN should you consider submitting a "Creditor's Petition" for, in the case of a limited company, "compulsory liquidation".

Second key point: the Creditor's Petition may be submitted by any of the creditors. It does not have to be agreed by *all* the creditors.

Third key point: the debt must exceed, the last time I looked, £750, regardless of the size of the company.(3)

Fourth key point: even if the defendant is an individual, preparing the Statutory Demand is best (by far) left to a solicitor. Do NOT attempt to prepare it yourself.

Fifth key point: the Statutory Demand must be served *in person*, although you can appoint a representative to do it if the defendant is far away from you. Private detective agencies do a roaring trade in this.(3)

Sixth, and probably the mostest keyest, point: It's *expensive* to do this.

(1) Against private individuals, the "collecting it" part is probably the hardest.

(2) If you've had to call in the bailiffs, the chances of them collecting anything useful from a private individual are basically zero. Against companies, however, they are quite effective. They have rights of entry to company premises that they don't have against individuals, and having bailiffs turn up and start removing the furniture will generally get a company to cooperate.

(3) In my case (I was the creditor), the defendant didn't want to be found, and I had the distinct impression that the situation had offended the detective's professional pride. He eventually sent a female operative who was successful in serving the papers. This was after a council representative had told me that although he wasn't allowed to tell me even just a plain "yes" or "no" answer to "is this person still at this address?", he was prepared to advise me to serve the papers at the address in question.

Re: On the other hand

"It's venture funding, not retail."

So why did they use the word "order" then. If it's venture funding then the word would be would be "investment". The word "order" does not merely imply this is retail, it states it as clearly is possible without using the word "retail" itself.

The reason Levy is terrified had nothing to do with his cock and everything to do with the fact that this sets a precedent for everybody who placed and order to sue. And of course this precedent having been set it will be so much easier for every subsequent action. They should subbing fly through the small claims court.

Expect the next story to be that the company has filed for voluntary liquidation. As such if you are one of the poor said who placed an order with these cowboys you'd better get your claim in quickly.

Re: On the other hand

"The problem is the crowdfunders' false expectations, compounded by unclear terms and legalese, and the typical crowdfunder's lack of experience with the process."

As the judgement makes clear, the crowdfunders were made promises. There were no caveats.

Oh, and I think in light of the judgement, your last point ought to read "...the typical crowdfundees's lack of experience with the process.", ie it was up to RCL to make clear when forming the contract that there may be no product at the end of the process or that delays may be years in extent.

Re: On the other hand

No, I don't think that is what the judge said.

Morton was protected because " the campaign owners have to perform any promise to contributors. "

In this case " it says 'this order'. Not 'this pledge' but 'this order' has been successfully added to your campaign, said the judge "

I'm very dubious about crowd funding.

A developer should have a prototype product to show that they are fair dinkum. Fine tuning plastic mouldings, etc and doing a production run are worth funding and you might reasonably expect something back for your money. And it will help the fledgling company get up and running.

"That's a BIG, IMPORTANT judgement."

Absolutely correct. It sends out a huge warning to future crowdfunders to make sure they include all the relevant caveats that you are making a donation and *may* get a reward if the product makes it market. Of course, this will make it harder for crowdfunders to raise the capital if the donaters don't get any sort of guarantee but should cut down on some of the more esoteric and wacky ones that anyone with a bit of common sense would realise is a pile of monkey cack. If the risk to the donator is higher, they are less likely to donate.

It's an interesting judgment, but it doesn't set a precedent. No other court is bound to follow this decision until or unless it's upheld by a higher court (if there was an appeal).

I'll really, really, I absolutely promise myself, use it as a practical FPGA board in order to learn an extra skill. Honest. It's not just for games.

I think I said something similar to my parents when I was about 10.

Re: My next prediction - that Psion-revamp thing will similarly tank.

Don't forget, RCL also put out photos of Vega+'s being assembled.

They turned out to be a batch of prototypes which didn't work particularly well, but were paraded around for a year by people like World of Spectrum "owner" Lee Fogarty and self-proclaimed "most prolific ZX Spectrum developer" Jonathan Cauldwell as "proof" this wasn't a scam.

Re: As it should be

Wasn't the C5 the one product he was able to make enough of - and that wasn't delayed. Admittedly that was because nobody wanted them...

I drove one a few years ago, and it was amazing how unstable they felt, for something so low to the ground. The thought of taking one on actual roads is terrifying.