back to article Lauri Love's US extradition appeal judges reserve decision

London's High Court has reserved judgment on the extradition of accused hacker Lauri Love after hearing this morning that his appeal should be granted because conditions in the US prisons he may be sent to are "unconscionable". "For this particular appellant, going to MDC [the Metropolitan Detention Centre in Brooklyn, New …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Delays

    The delay in judgment is surely inflicting much pain and suffering on the defendant. It would be most humane to end the delays and extradite him immediately.

    1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Delays

      Reading inmate and other accounts of incarceration at MCC and America's fucked-up punishment regime; it would seem not knowing his fate is going to be walk in the park compared to what he will suffer if extradited.

      If we are going to extradite; the most humane thing might be to put a bullet in his head.

      1. Boo Radley

        Re: Delays

        How long a sentence would he be facing in each country? The US is horrible about handing down rediculously long sentences for relatively minor crimes. I could easily imagine the US giving him a life sentence and putting him in a maximum security prison.

        Although, if he is guilty, some prison time is warranted.

        1. Gotno iShit Wantno iShit

          Re: Delays

          Here; free to live his life until proven guilty and then something proportionate to the crimes, 6 years was mentioned in an article earlier this week.

          Trumpistan; Straight to prison until judged fit to stand trial. If unfit for the rest of his life due to the conditions - tough. If fit and found guilty, up to 99 years per hacking charge.

          1. Kristinajulia2

            Re: Delays

            I am a strong Trump supporter and I tweet him weekly for help in this case. This is political and ridiculous. He shouldn’t be tried here, he won’t have rights like a US Citizen... seriously not cool. I don’t usually defend anyone accused of hacking but in this case I will defend this guy til the end of time... or they come lock me up. Seems US is losing freedom of speech here..

        2. Kristinajulia2

          Re: Delays

          99 years...

        3. Kristinajulia2

          Re: Delays

          Well IF he is found guilty they should just allow him to work for the govt, that’s punishment enough !

      2. Kristinajulia2

        Re: Delays

        Please don’t say that, he is a good guy with so much to offer the world. I’m praying he gets off with communtiry service (ie assting catching actual bad boy hackers! Like identity theft!)

    2. Kristinajulia2

      Re: Delays

      Your comment is quite messed up, he should NOT be extradited to my country, he has ZERO rights as he’s not a US Citizen.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just send him over there and good riddance.

    So,let's recap here...

    He committed a crime (Let's be honest here and not use any 'allegedly'), and broke into a hornets nest in terms of targets, the US Government.

    The US did their work and identified Love as the perp, so not really a good hacker then, as he got found out, and asked for a word in his shell like......

    The US want to try him on their terms, well it was their computers, in the US, where the actual crime took place, that Love chose as his intended victim.

    Now faced with the consequences of his actions (he is an adult, he did know what he was doing), he is attempting (as anyone would) to prevent his extradition to the US to face the music.

    When faced with potential jail time, states he will commit suicide, therefore using emotional blackmail as a tactic.

    Boo hoo. He chose his target, he deliberately compromised a foreign countries Government computer, tough.

    Much like I would like to see Russian, Ukrainian, American, British and any other nationality hackers responsible for hacking another nation Government extradited to stand trial in their intended targets legal system, and that includes those who create ransomware.

    I would happily see him, and Gary Mckinnon on a plane heading over there, maybe we can get a group rate and send the sex offending trial avoider Julian Assange over at the same time.

    1. PrivateCitizen

      Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

      He committed a crime (Let's be honest here and not use any 'allegedly'), and broke into a hornet's nest in terms of targets, the US Government.

      Really? If that is the case then why are the US Government looking to try him? Surely he has already been found guilty and convicted?

      The US want to try him on their terms, well it was their computers, in the US, where the actual crime took place, that Love chose as his intended victim.

      Few things work this way. Love seems unlikely to face anything looking like a fair trial in the US (where lots of people share your opinion that he is guilty without going to the trouble of checking evidence) and the punishments he faces are significantly different from the ones he faces in the country which has a duty to protect him. This is not how most laws work.

      1. Joe Dietz

        Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

        "He committed a crime (Let's be honest here and not use any 'allegedly'), and broke into a hornet's nest in terms of targets, the US Government.

        Really? If that is the case then why are the US Government looking to try him? Surely he has already been found guilty and convicted?"

        The U.S. government is looking to try him because it is the right thing for them to do. If you place yourself outside of the reach of the justice system, that is where the predator drones come into play. If you mess with the U.S. government, you should expect a response and in fact you should be happy that they simply want to try you for a crime.

        Love isn't a minority and he isn't anybody important enough to have political enemies in the U.S. so the usual reasons that you might distrust a prosecutor just don't apply here. As such it would seem fairly arbitrary and in fact unlikely if the U.S. investigation singled him out of all of the people in the world to pin this particular crime on without a fairly good idea that he in fact did it. But that is for the government to yet prove, but its not unreasonable to give them the chance.

        1. Truckle The Uncivil

          Re: Just send him over there and good riddance

          @Joe Dietz

          Your mention and apparent approval of predator drones reveals you. No, US law is not the default law of the entire planet. Nor should it be. Murder remains illegal in most jurisdictions.

          Love committed a trivial offense that the ‘victims’ should have thanked him for. Instead they got offended because their utter incompetence was demstrated. The ‘cost of damage’ is not caused by Lauri but by the long term incompetance of the administrators who were not doing their job. (Fraud anyone?). That will not be taken into account in the US.

          The problem is not Lauri Love but their shit security. That is where the serious misdeeds were done. They need to annihalate Lauri to cover their own asses. That is all this is about.

          1. Kristinajulia2

            Re: Just send him over there and good riddance

            It would be nice if they didn’t let it get this far and just hired the damn guy.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

          The U.S. government is looking to try him because it is the right thing for them to do.

          Yes, that is significantly different from saying he has been found guilty by no longer using terms like "allegedly" though.

          If you place yourself outside of the reach of the justice system,

          Whose justice system?

          that is where the predator drones come into play.

          Oh dear. Here we go. You might want to look into the possible legal ramifications here. If the Drone operator kills someone in the UK, that is a fairly clear cut case of murder and based on what you've put, the assumption is the operator should be immediately extradited, sent to trial and if found guilty put in prison.

          Do you agree? Or do you have some idea of law and justice which predates the Anglo Saxons?

          If you mess with the U.S. government, you should expect a response and in fact you should be happy that they simply want to try you for a crime.

          Bullies will always be bullies.

      2. DougS Silver badge

        Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

        So what's the alternative, that the UK never extradite anyone to the US because our prisons are worse than UK prisons? Or just people who claim various ailments that would mean "hard time" is harder on them than other people - which would essentially amount to reverse discrimination that anyone who is psychologically "normal" would be at risk of extradition, while the rest can avoid it.

        1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

          Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

          "So what's the alternative, that the UK never extradite anyone to the US because our prisons are worse than UK prisons?"

          Yes - that should be the default position, especially for crimes that were not committed by a person on US soil. The US "justice" system is irretrievably broken, the penal system even worse. The UK should withdraw from the disgustingly one-sided extradition treaty immediately so that this situation does not arise again, and think very hard about renegotiation.

        2. hplasm Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

          "So what's the alternative, that the UK never extradite anyone to the US because our prisons are worse than UK prisons?"

          Yep.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

          So what's the alternative, that the UK never extradite anyone to the US because our prisons are worse than UK prisons?

          Shockingly there is more than one alternative. It may amaze you that life has nuance, but it really, really does.

          There are plenty of alternatives which allow some people to be extradited without others going. The US relies on this quite heavily in relation to international law, so it seems fair that other countries should avail themselves.

          Or just people who claim various ailments that would mean "hard time" is harder on them than other people - which would essentially amount to reverse discrimination that anyone who is psychologically "normal" would be at risk of extradition, while the rest can avoid it.

          Screed masking the fact you believe Love is lying about any condition he has. It might be worth working out what the goal of "punishment" is in a justice system. It isn't about revenge or showing what a internet tough guy you are.

        4. Kristinajulia2

          Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

          He’s not some guy killing people or getting people killed, much diff scenario.

      3. Kristinajulia2

        Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

        Thanks for posting that, praying this young man gets a fair trial, in UK

    2. grizewald

      Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

      Surprise, surprise! An AC judge, jury and executioner.

      You also seem to claim the gift of prescience as demonstrated in your absolute knowledge of his guilt.

      Your spiteful little rant disgusts me.

      I'm sure of one thing. It is that you will never rise to the position of a judge. Your reasoning is flawed, your knowledge of the law is incorrect and the only motive for your post appears to be that you have a vindictive way of thinking. The fact that you also know so much about what happened with Assange in Sweden also confirms your delusional superpowers

      Lauri should be tried in the UK. He broke UK law when he hacked the US computers.

      1. Kristinajulia2

        Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

        Much love to you, I’m from the US and don’t want him extradited. Hell I don’t think he deserves jail. They should hire him if he was able to break in and show how to avoid it!

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Just send him over there and good riddance.

      "He committed a crime (Let's be honest here and not use any 'allegedly'), and broke into a hornets nest in terms of targets, the US Government."

      Where? Did he ever visit the US? If the actions he took were taken on UK soil irrespective of where their effects took place then surely the obvious thing would be to charge him under the UK legislation. If the US authorities find it too embarrassing hard to provide evidence to a UK court then he'll be found not guilty and can claim double jeopardy against any subsequent attempts at extradition.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where is the historical evidence of Asperger's syndrome? School reports etc...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I see some disagree with my simple question, that's certainly your right, it's also your right to question why in his original press photo he looks very normal however in his court photo's he's doing the classic Hollywood beanie hat special pose used in countless films over the years.

      I'm not saying he does or does not have Asperger I am asking why within the court no evidence has been presented that I am aware of proving he has had this condition all his life.

      I am also not saying he should be extradited or taking any side.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Seeing as though I'm going for down votes today let me ask another question.

        If this wasn't the US government that he hacked and it was an American university computer system causing the same amount of damage/problems would people still be against his extradition?

        1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

          I'll answer both your questions -

          I'm not saying he does or does not have Asperger I am asking why within the court no evidence has been presented that I am aware of proving he has had this condition all his life.

          The only thing which matters is whether his current condition creates an obstacle to extradition. There is no absolute need to prove he had any condition all his life to prove he suffers from it now.

          People slide around the spectrum all the time. I imagine he had far fewer issues when he wasn't facing extradition than he is now. Perhaps that's his fault, maybe not, but that doesn't matter. The question is whether it is an obstacle to extradition.

          If this wasn't the US government that he hacked and it was an American university computer system causing the same amount of damage/problems would people still be against his extradition?

          Yes. It is not the issue of the crime or victim, it is an issue of the American justice and detention system. He would face the same risk from those in both cases.

          I personally oppose all extraditions to America on the grounds that detention, justice, punishment and incarceration do not meet acceptable civilised standards.

      2. Jason 24

        "why within the court no evidence has been presented..."

        Isn't one of the USAs arguments that they can't provide the necessary evidence to the UK courts to prosecute here?

        I'm aware this isn't really a valid argument, just interesting to note. Swings and roundabouts!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Where is the historical evidence of Asperger's syndrome? School reports etc..."

      A statement clearly written by someone who doesn't have a kid with Autism.

      It took us 5 years, several thousand Pounds and hundreds of meetings to "prove" she did.

      And if another so called expect recommends a star chart, I swear I'll beat them senseless!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Fair points, thanks. I actually have a nephew who could be on the spectrum (the way he holds himself mainly his hands and some behaviours he displays) but he seems fine for now.

        Ok to put another it another way did his diagnosis come about before or after he was arrested?

    3. Truckle The Uncivil

      Asperger’s diagnosis

      Entered into court records, troll.

  4. MJI Silver badge

    When are we going to extradite their hatemonger in chief?

    Orange fuckwit is breaking UK laws so lets arrest him.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Definition of Extradition

    My reading of the definition of extradition is that it applies to cases where a crime is committed in country A and the perpetrator has fled to country B. In this case the legal bodies of country A can apply to have the perpetrator made available of trial in their jurisdiction.

    In this case, by definition, the offence was committed in country B (the UK) so by that definition, extradition to country A (the US) isn't appropriate. But then I'm sure there is a treaty that has words that somewhat muddy that definition.

    Hmm, too many definitions,

  6. Richard Parkin

    Shooting from an embassy

    If someone inside the US embassy fires a pistol* and kills a London policeman he cannot be extradited to U.K. but he could be prosecuted under US law. it seems to me no different if someone in the U.K. extracts electrons (or whatever would be the correct description) from the US and transports them back to the U.K. he should be prosecuted under U.K. law.

    * I’m sure everyone knows about this case!

  7. PapaD

    US has form

    To be honest, the US has lots of prior experience of claiming jurisdiction over things that haven't had anything to do with them.

    Examples:

    NatWest Three – extradited to Texas on fraud charges against a UK bank while they were living in the UK and working for the UK bank.

    Ian Norris of Morgan Crucible – alleged price fixing (while in the UK and price fixing was not a crime in the UK at the time).

    Chances are, they will get there way in this case as well, though tbh, Lauri broke UK law, whilst in the UK, and has never visited the USA. He should be tried in the UK.

    The fact that in the UK he will be assured of a viable defence team is one thing that should be considered - there is no legal aid in the USA, and as many have pointed out, the US justice system is a profit-mongering abuse of power and has a very low rehabilitation rate.

    Alex Stone – alleged child abuse, charges subsequently dropped after 6 months in US jail. According to Mr. Stone "there appeared to be no defence to extradition and no evidence at all was presented in this case"

  8. A Nonny Moose

    United States of Cardassia

    In cases like this, the US "Justice" System reminds me a lot of the Cardassian system.

    "DUKAT: How barbaric. On Cardassia, the verdict is always known before the trial begins. And it's always the same.

    SISKO: In that case, why bother with a trial at all?

    DUKAT: Because the people demand it. They enjoy watching justice triumph over evil every time. They find it comforting."

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