back to article Windows Fall Creators Update is here: What do you want first – bad news or good news?

Just over two years after the introduction of both Windows 10 and the "Windows as a service" concept, Microsoft has released the Fall Creators Update aka version 1709, build 16299. We took it for a spin. Microsoft’s efforts in making in-place upgrade smooth have paid off. There will always be cases where things go wrong, but …

Page:

  1. Himalayaman

    Start menu

    Just install classic shell to have a real start menu again.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Start menu

      "Just install classic shell to have a real start menu again."

      unfortunately doesn't fix the 2D FLATSO FLUGLY, adware, spyware, "the Metro" settings vs control panel schizophrenia, forced updates, ...

      not saying that classic shell is NOT an improvement. it is. It's really just putting lipstick on the boar, and (as another El Reg commenter once wittily quipped, to the best of my remembrance) NOT EVEN on the end that goes "oink".

      related, I hear "all of that" is still in this alleged "creator's" update. And the article had a picture of what looked like a win-phone display. I dislike the vertical-oriented displays anyway, since I view the world in "widescreen" format, but you don't do much "creating" on a windows phone, now do ya?

      [well it's a phone interface on a desktop, this win-10-nic, so it's just as well]

      1. Anonymous IV
        Unhappy

        Re: Start menu

        I've had Classic Shell cause a desktop restart loop following the previous major Windows update (v1703) - almost impossible to recover from - but reinstalling Windows 10 again from the ISO made Classic Shell work perfectly.

        The opinion from the forum was that Microsoft probably screwed something up in the major or minor updates over the past year and more. Reinstalling from scratch was far more likely to allow Classic Shell to work.

        After that I realised that all I wanted from Classic Shell was the Control Panel menu entry/desktop icon, which can be acquired by other means.

        1. mhenriday
          Boffin

          Re: Start menu

          After «upgrading» till Windows 10 (Pro, in my case), version 1709 (the so-called «Creators Update» ; Microsoft is known for its low-keyed modesty), the following message is displayed on the desktop of users who have Classic Shell (version 4.3.1) installed translation from the Swedish, apologies for any discrepancies) :

          Classic Start Menu

          Classic Shell needs to configure itself for the new operating system.

          OK

          Pressing «OK» does the trick....

          Henri

        2. mhenriday
          Boffin

          Re: Start menu

          After «upgrading» to Windows 10 (Pro, in my case), version 1709 (which Microsoft, which is famed for its low-keyed modesty, calls «Fall Creators Update»), users with the latest version (4.3.1) of Classic Shell will see the following message displayed on their screen (translation from the Swedish, my apologies for any discrepancies) :

          Classic Start Menu

          Classic Shell need to configure itself for the new operating system.

          OK

          Clicking «OK» does the trick.....

          Henri

      2. Timmy B Silver badge

        Re: Start menu

        "And the article had a picture of what looked like a win-phone display. I dislike the vertical-oriented displays anyway"

        Bob, you maroon! That's just a clip of the Cortana window. You don't really think that's the whole desktop do you?? And please, please, please I beg of you - tell us what win-10-nic means.

        1. RyokuMas Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Start menu

          You can lead a zealot to a decision but you can't make him think...

        2. Zippy's Sausage Factory

          Re: Start menu

          "tell us what win-10-nic means."

          Pronounced "win-ten-nick", to rhyme with "Titanic".

          At least, that's the impression I got from it.

        3. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Start menu

          "tell us what win-10-nic means."

          Windows 10 + Titanic --> Win-10-nic. And Micro-shaft KNOWS about the icebergs, and yet they're going FULL SPEED AHEAD towards them. No course changes, just minor adjustments to the direction.

          And, it's kinda funny how a screen clip looked JUST like a phone display. Well, "Phone-ie" OS indeed.

          Micro-shaft: re-inventing the look/feel of 1985, by moving the decimal point from "Windows 1.0" to "Windows 10". (And then adding the spyware, adware, etc.)

          http://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win101

          yeah, 1985 called, they want their FLATSO interface back. At least Windows 1.0 had MORE COLOR...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Start menu

            "yeah, 1985 called, they want their FLATSO interface back. At least Windows 1.0 had MORE COLOR..."

            Yeah speaking of which, who else noticed during the rebranding exercise how they also sucked all the colors out of the MSN logo pretty butterfly leaving only the deathly dark blackness of oblivion? I seriously have to wonder whether someone in that company involved in that design did it in full awareness of the irony as a sort of comment on the change in direction.

            I think it's part of the decline of western civilization. Lots of big companies seem to be coming out with batshit insane designs and slogans which make me think that just maybe the people being told to come up with the designs are much smarter than the people demanding the changes and that maybe, just maybe they are so pissed off with the state of affairs that they decide to just troll the company with a satirical design or slogan.

            1. Wayland Bronze badge

              Re: Start menu

              Cultural change. Darkness is upon us. A few years ago I noticed Robocop was a dark metal rather than the silver of the first movie. You have bright colours for a birthday party, white for a wedding and black for death.

              Are Microsoft moving with the times or shaping the times?

              1. Kiwi Silver badge
                Coat

                Re: Start menu

                white for a wedding and black for death.

                So..Explain the groom's normal clothing colour then?

            2. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Timmy B Silver badge

            Re: Start menu

            "Windows 10 + Titanic --> Win-10-nic. "

            At last. But it's terrible. Ti Tan Nic =/= Win Ten Nic. Unless you think the boat is pronounced Titennic. And the flat is a design choice that's becoming standard across all UI design. From iPads to the Reg everything is losing the faux 3d look.

            1. Updraft102 Silver badge

              Re: Start menu

              "And the flat is a design choice that's becoming standard across all UI design. From iPads to the Reg everything is losing the faux 3d look."

              Well, they can just go and be stupid without me. The Reg is just a web site, so their decision to be trendy rather than sensible can be tolerated, and if I really wanted to, I could use Stylish to restyle it to my liking. I spend a lot more time in my browser than I do at The Reg (since I use my browser all the time I am here as well as at many other sites), and a lot more time in turn in my OS than in my browser, and for those, I am not going to tolerate stupidity because some dingbat declared flat design to be the fashion trend of the moment.

              The Reg reported a few months ago (or so) that users are 20-something percent slower using flat interfaces than skeuomorphic ones, according to one study. It makes perfect sense-- we're creatures that have, as a species, been dealing with 3d objects since the beginning of the species. Fashion changes, but the way our minds work does not... we are what we are, and that's beings with binocular vision who have evolved to perceive things visually in three dimensions. Fashion can go take a hike!

            2. jelabarre59 Silver badge

              Re: Start menu

              And the flat is a design choice that's becoming standard across all UI design. From iPads to the Reg everything is losing the faux 3d look.

              Yeah, and everything consequently looks like shit. So what was your point?

      3. iron Silver badge

        Re: Start menu

        The article does not have a picture of a WinPhone display. I think you're confused by the picture of Cortana on a desktop/laptop that has been cropped so it only shows the relevant part and not the rest of the screen.

      4. 1Rafayal

        Re: Start menu

        Bob, what is it with you and 2D UI's?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Start menu

          "what is it with you and 2D UI's?"

          They don't work so well if you rely on Braille....

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: Start menu

          "Bob, what is it with you and 2D UI's?"

          They *SUCK*. It's like being in a room with ugly wallpaper, or a ridiculous color scheme. It's "bad Feng Shui". It's disturbing, distracting, and NOT what I want. When I see it, it PISSES ME OFF, just by BEING there. [I actually tried to work with Windows 8 ("Ape"), once I put classic shell on it, but couldn't stomach it, nor the 2D FLATSO DevStudio that went with it. YUCHHHKKKK!]

          I'll make the assumption that a large number of people reading El Reg weren't computer gurus back in the early 90's when Windows 3.0 first hit the shelves. So here's some history...

          Back then, most computers were running MS-DOS with DOS applications that had text-based interfaces with menus, all flat-looking because you can't really do 3D effect without a GUI. Windows 286 and Windows 386 (both 2.x versions) were kinda sucky and looked a lot like THIS [but only slightly better]

          http://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win101

          Microsoft had been developing OS/2 presentation manager for IBM, but it ONLY ran on PS/2 machines, and a very select handful of clones, because IBM and the way they did things back then. I had taken a class in OS/2 Presentation Manager programming [I actually like the OS/2 API naming convention better than windows, because it's "object verb" not "verb object" and therefore easier to find similar things in the docs]. But when I tried to BUY OS/2, I couldn't. And I didn't have $$$$ to spend on a PS/2 machine with OS/2 on it.

          OS/2 1.2 looked BETTER in so many ways than its predecessor, because the various elements were "3D Skeuomorphic", such that knobs on scrollbars looked like actual knobs, buttons looked like buttons [not just colored squares with text in them], and so on. It was just enough eye candy to make things PLEASANT and almost made you WANT to use the computer more. Well, I thought so.

          THEN, Windows 3.0 released. It had the SAME KIND of nice 3D looking interface [like OS/2 PM 1.2], a 386 "enhanced mode" built in (so you could run your DOS applications in a window on the same desktop), and a Solitaire application that looked good and probably sold MORE copies of Windows 3.0 than anything else. Its appearance was pleasant, easy to understand, and relatively easy to work with (and you could customize it, to some extent).

          Windows 3.0 _IS_ _WHAT_ _MADE_ _MICROSOFT_ . MS-DOS would've lost to OS/2 had IBM marketed their product for ALL computers. Instead, Bill Gates did that, and guess who won?

          Not only that, but EVERY STUDY I have ever heard of, or even read about on El Reg, says that a 3D skeuomorphic interface is EASIER to work with, that people RECOGNIZE the UI components FASTER, and that it's PREFERRED over "Flatso" by a (conservative) margin of 2 to 1.

          2D FLATSO on a _PHONE_ is even *UGLY*. And on WEB PAGES it's even *UGLIER*. I **HATE** the 'Australis' crap in Firefox. NOT being able to use a "UI Restorer" plugin is motivation to FORK FIREFOX so that I can CONTINUE to use one. Or, if I get motivated enough, maybe I can write my own webkit-based browser that FORCES a classic 3D look with menus and reasonable-looking toolbar buttons.

          It's also POSSIBLE to *REBEL* against the 2D FLATSO. All you need to do is draw some bitmaps for the buttons in your applications, and use THOSE instead of system defaults. I "fixed" the icon of an application I've been working on (droid) so that it has 3D borders. MOST of the icons in the application list on 'droid (that version anyway) have shadows, which give them a 3D look. Everyone I know prefers a 3D look. Only a handful of FASCISTS that insist the REST of us have 2D FLATSO _EVAR_ insist that "we must stop being dinosaurs" and "get with the *MODERN* interface". They should just GET OFF MY LAWN. I want my 3D SKEUOMORPHIC INTERFACE, DAMMIT! Even if _I_ must WRITE IT MYSELF.

          1. Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
            Holmes

            Re: Start menu

            You are StarGateSG7, AICMFP.

          2. Updraft102 Silver badge

            Re: Start menu

            Bombastic Bob:

            Most of the flat Windows 8 appearance is just a theme. When I moved from XP to 7, I didn't like the themes available in 7 as supplied... the Aero glass default theme (even with the transparency turned off) was not what I was looking for, not to mention the retina-searingly white backgrounds that were everywhere. The Classic theme _was_ what I was looking for, but the GDI performance seemed to have taken a big hit since the XP days... the onscreen tearing was horrendous, and there seems to be no fix for it other than to use a DWM theme, which Classic is not.

            I searched for and found a theme that offered some of what I wanted, but the white background was there too, so I learned to edit/create Windows themes and made one that gave me all of what I wanted. Most people don't demand a #E1E1E1 background as I do; for them, the field is wide open, with tons of downloadable themes on DeviantArt and elsewhere for free.

            When I decided to try 8.1 (this was less than a year ago as I write this; well into the Windows 10 era), I used the .MSSTYLES editor I'd bought to port the theme to 8.1, and after some minor tweaking to get the ported theme adjusted, it's a dead ringer for how it looked in 7. It should be-- it's the same theme.

            Once the theme is done, the Win32 half of 8.x is taken care of. The Metro bits (which do not respond to the .MSSTYLES theme) can be nearly eradicated, so you can live in the Win32 and not worry about that phone app nonsense. Classic Shell, Old New Explorer, and Metro Killer (and a bunch of registry edits) take care of most of the rest, and if you want to go scorched earth, use the tiny but effective command line tool install_wim_tweak to eradicate all of the apps (which I did). Windows Store and all the others are gone, and they've never come back as they do every 6 months with 10.

            So, Metro's pretty much gone. It's the only reason I found 8.1 good enough to make the jump from 7 around the start of 2017. I hate the flat crap too, and just seeing that phone garbage on a PC makes me angry. I won't tolerate it on my PC. Apps are for phones, and flat UIs are for birds... or should I say for "the" birds. I'm as adamant on the point as you are, though perhaps not as bombastic. I have very specific expectations of a given UI, whether it be the UI or the browser (I too hate Australis; I cursed at the screen when I allowed FF to update back then and I saw what they had done with the UI. Classic Theme Restorer is imperative; without it, FF is garbage, like every other browser out there except Pale Moon).

            BTW, The fork of FF you ask for already exists... it is called Waterfox and has been around for five years already, though back then its goal in life was to provide 64-bit binaries for Windows, which Mozilla had for some reason decided not to provide until recently. Now it's the Firefox derivative that will still use the "legacy" addons after FF57, that still allows NPAPI plugins, that has no telemetry, and otherwise is about serving the user rather than Mozilla's agenda of turning FF into Chrome.

            Anyway, I was writing of Metro before that tangent. There are hints of it here and there in my modified 8.1 that appear infrequently, but for the most part, Metro is gone. You can very easily live in the Win32 neighborhood of Win 8.1 without even knowing that other half is/was there.

            Windows 10 is another animal. When they released 8, I guess MS had not yet had the time to embed the app crapp into the OS; it was kind of tacked on around the edges of a traditional Windows UI, which made it relatively easy to bypass. Windows 10's app garbage isn't avoidable the way it is with 8.x... too much of the system dialog stuff has been moved over to UWP. Of course, 10 is so bad that even if they fixed the UI, it would still be crap...

            1. VBF

              Re: Start menu

              I''m still using the XP Theme files on W10 original Creators Update. I used them on W7 and apart from minor tweaking, they are very satisfactory...IMO!

          3. Splork
            Flame

            Re: Start menu

            You forgot to mention that IBM paid MS to develop parts of OS/2 until MS walked off the job. Then a shout time later Windows 3 came out. Coincidence? I doubt it...

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: South Korean 'K Edition' lives up to its name; Windows 10 FCU K'EDition. Avoid for now.

        > They desperately need to start using the Red Hat / Fedora model, so they stop trashing their 'crown jewels' with beta code.

        Fedora: six-monthly releases with 12 month support and forced upgrades? That's exactly what Windows 10 has adopted.

        RHEL: stable release once every 3-4 years, with many-year support? I suppose that's Windows 7.

        1. Loud Speaker

          Re: South Korean 'K Edition' lives up to its name; Windows 10 FCU K'EDition. Avoid for now.

          I though we were talking about the"Fail" edition - although to be fair, most Windows releases appear to be that.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Update: Maybe this 1709 update is better than my first attempt made out.

        Update:

        Genuinely what happened first time round, I had a stuck start menu and wasn't able to fix it. I scrapped that first attempt.

        I've restored the previous Windows 10 1703 image and re-attempted the update using just the 1709 ISO, without selecting the option of downloading updates during the install, instead applying the 16299.19 Cumulative update+driver updates, post install.

        This time I was careful to allow the sound drivers and the Nvidia graphics drivers (2 of them, Windows 10 has always done this) to fully install before using the system/attempting any reboots. Note this takes a good 20 minutes even with a SSD.

        Windows Update did state at one point that the Cumulative Update 16299.19 couldn't be installed because other updates (drivers) were currently being installed. Once the drivers had finished I clicked "retry", and the 16299.19 Cumulative update then installed.

        I now don't have the same stickying Start Menu in Windows 10 1709.

        Take it steady, let it do its thing, don't rush the update, i.e. don't use the system until it completes.

        While it's easy to trash Microsoft/Windows with their stupid naming conventions, we do need to come clean if we're able to resolve an issue, with a different update method.

        Updating with just the ISO+no updates during install, worked for me, second attempt.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Update2: The Sticky/Gitchy Start menu is back again in 1709.

          Update 2: The Sticky/Gitchy Start menu is back again in Windows 10 1709. It's a Nvidia Driver issue (a glitchy driver automatically re-installing itself possibily, forced via Windows Update, after a manual update).

          I might revert to switching off the option to automatically download manufacturers' apps and custom icons that are available for your devices. (Old Control Panel->System and Security->System->Hardware Tab->Device Installation Settings)

          This option used to include the word 'Driver', but now seems to suggest that minimal drivers from manufacturers will still be automatically installed even when you don't want them (i.e. the system is working).

          I've resorted to the Nvidia Installer directly and that has fixed the issue as of now. And hasn't come back after several reboots. It looks like the Nvidia Driver is being held in place by the "Microsoft sticking plaster code" that prevent 2 or more re-attempts to installl a driver, via forced Windows Updates - after failing.

          Doesn't inspire much confidence, but this test build is working now, and no other show stopper issues.

          (While it's easy to blame Nvidia failing/overheating hardware for these type of issues, this isn't).

    3. BillG Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Start menu

      Who runs your Windows 10 installation, you the user, or Microsoft?

      Windows XP is an Operating System. The user commands, the OS obeys. This behavior is exactly what we all want from an OS.

      But since then, with each new version of Windows, Microsoft has seized more and more control away from us users. "Windows 10 as a service" is a scary phrase used to explain the involuntary lack of control Microsoft has gleefully taken away from us. If you have Windows 10, unfortunately your computer does not belong to you anymore.

      Microsoft's cold new corporate motto should be "Resistance is Futile".

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Do it out way

        Microsoft's cold new corporate motto should be "Resistance is Futile".

        OR,

        Mummy SatNad knows best so be a good boy/girl/other and get in line. You will obey or

        Where's the Dalek Icon when you need one

        Exterminate!

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Start menu

        Microsoft's cold new corporate motto should be "Resistance is Futile".

        A comparison to The Borg has been made... and falls short of reality.

        /me looks for that pic of Bill Gates as Locutus.

      3. Jim Birch

        Re: Start menu

        The average user is more-or-less totally clueless about security (and system configuration.)

        They are infinitely better off having the system managed by Microsoft. The rest of us are also much better off when the vast majority of connected computers are properly managed because it means the overall health of the Internet is improved.

        If you're smart enough to do do your own thing securely that's great! But be clear that you're in a minority. (You may also be delusional.) I work in IT and think about security issues every day for my job I'm clear that I want my family's systems managed by Google, Microsoft and Apple EVEN IF I lose a bit of control. I know vastly more about system security than the average user, and that might be why I want teams of people and lots of resources looking after me.

        1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

          Re: Start menu

          Hang on!

          What does having a secure system have to do with accepting MS spying on you and treating YOUR machine as if it was theirs?

          BTW. MS virus scanner has never ever found anything here. Regardless of my system update frequency.

        2. Kiwi Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Start menu

          They are infinitely better off having the system managed by Microsoft.

          A few posts below yours, AC explained why this is such a bad idea:

          Update 2: The Sticky/Gitchy Start menu is back again in Windows 10 1709. It's a Nvidia Driver issue (a glitchy driver automatically re-installing itself possibily, forced via Windows Update, after a manual update).

          We routinely hear of machines being knocked offline, becoming unbootable or various other significant MS failures with their updates. The whole update system has been badly messed up for a very long time (eg 7's 48hrs+ to check for updates unless you know what you're doing, the whole GWX thing, the current very minimal information on updates and it no longer being safe to update 7 automatically, sneaking slurp into 7 and 8x.......)

          Perhaps another managing the system is fine. I know a few people who certainly think they know what they're doing when they don't, and it's scary to see the level of pissing around they do on their systems and how often it becomes so broken they have to rebuild from scratch - but giving them a normal user account on a Linux and periodontally running updates for them would solve those issues if they'd let you.

          I have family and friends who had constant headaches, from normal email+facebook+some light office work to bring-your-own-disposable-mouse-coz-you-never-wanna-touch-his-or-yours-again hardcore porn users (thankfully only one of the latter!), who had regular problems. Switch them to Linux and they're away. One of these was on win-10-nic (stolen, thanks Bob for explaining :) ) and asked for a Linux trial on a spare laptop. Took him less than a week to say "I want Windows OFF my system" - that was after a 10 botched update broke his system (again), and as he lives a couple of hundred K from me it wasn't exactly easy to get together to fix.

          Yes, I agree some people need less control over their systems to some extent - but most simply want the machine to work, to work securely, and to work reliably. 10 doesn't provide that, as the numerous articles about severe breakages show.

          1. Updraft102 Silver badge

            Re: Start menu

            "but giving them a normal user account on a Linux and periodontally running updates for them would solve those issues if they'd let you."

            You don't want to let them gum up the system by doing it periodontally themselves!

            "Yes, I agree some people need less control over their systems to some extent - but most simply want the machine to work, to work securely, and to work reliably. 10 doesn't provide that, as the numerous articles about severe breakages show."

            Well put. As I see it, if MS aims to take the ability of the user to control updates and to assume that responsibility themselves, they're doing exactly that-- assuming responsibility. They had better be sure that the patches they force on me are up to my standards before installing them, since they no longer allow me to judge for myself whether the patches meet my standards.

            The absolute bare minimum standard for me is that the patched system works at least as well as it did before the patch in every conceivable way (and presumably better in at least one way, or else why are we patching at all?). If the original code is capable of being as good as itself (and it is, since it is itself itself), then so should the replacement code. No ifs, ands, or buts-- if the new code is not at that level, go work on it some more and get back to me when it is.

            MS. of course, has hit the trifecta of poor patch quality with 10. They've gone to a rapid release schedule, throwing in tons of code-churning features whose only purpose seems to be generating bullet points on patch notes so that people feel like they're getting something to go with all of these headaches.

            Then they eliminated the QA testers. Right when they've gone to a release schedule that demands more testing, they got rid of their testers. Just... brilliant. But wait, there's more!

            Next, they went to a system where they take unprecedented control over patching, removing the ability for ordinary users to have control over their own updates, which imposes an additional amount of responsibility on Microsoft to get the patches right before sending them out into the wild. Microsoft even said that they "feel" (I love that... what emotion exactly are they relying upon for this?) that their updates have evolved to a high enough quality to where people don't need the ability to control updates themselves anymore; they should just trust MS to do their job and not worry about it.

            They did all three of these changes at the same time. If Nadella was a plant from Google or some other competitor, and he wanted to reduce Windows 10 patch quality to the lowest possible level, this would have been the perfect recipe. I don't know what else he he could do that wouldn't make it so obvious that he was sabotaging the process that he would reveal himself as a saboteur. It boggles my mind even now, and the only conclusion I have been able to reach is that Windows is in the process of being scuttled.

      4. CFtheNonPartisan

        Re: Start menu

        Control AND annual subscription fees!

    4. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: Start menu

      "Just install classic shell to have a real start menu again."

      I had classic shell. Anniversary Update removed it as incompatible.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Start menu

        Haven't read any comments and stopped reading the article at "...install your preferred distro from the Store" (you're insane to put that in the article).

    5. Captain DaFt

      Re: Start menu

      Just install classic shell to have a real start menu again.

      <TIC>Didn't you notice? Windows now offers the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL).

      Run a real OS any way you want it, Microsoft doesn't care.

      As long as theirs is running quietly in the background, sending everything you do on the computer to Redmond to 'Enhance your user experience'.</TIC>

      (El Reg does support the Tongue In Cheek protocol? Right?)☺

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

    Have they fixed the decades-old bug in File Explorer that means it cannot handle NTFS long file paths, THAT IT ITSELF CREATES ?

    NO.

    They throw more random shit in, and leave in all the old shit.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

      "leave in all the old shit."

      'shit' is Micro-shaft-ese for "feature"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

        Win 10 has had long file path support for more than a year

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

          "Win 10 has had long file path support for more than a year"

          Yes, and File Explorer does not use it.

          Thanks for making my point, I assume that was your intention.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

            Shouldn't you be using that search thing rather than going looking for files yourself?

            Just another reason why I'll be retiring my last Win 7 box at the end of the year.

        2. kain preacher Silver badge

          Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

          What he is talking about is some programs will auto generate an super long file name for a folder. NTFS parser can not handle it. The only thing you can do is delete it or rename it.. If try to do some thing like move it it throws up an error and says file name is a to long please rename it.

          1. Lysenko

            Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

            What he is talking about is some programs will auto generate an super long file name for a folder

            The most obvious example being old versions of npm creating undeletable node_modules directories.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

            "What he is talking about is some programs will auto generate an super long file name for a folder. "

            Or, as I stated, File Explorer can make a long path for a folder ITSELF ( nothing super about it, incidentally ) and then File Explorer itself cannot handle that folder.

          3. Steve the Cynic Silver badge

            Re: Have they fixed the decades old bug in File Explorer ?

            "NTFS parser can not handle it"

            NTFS itself handles it just fine. The system path parser that understands how to resolve ".", ".." and other oddities, as well as transforming forward slashes into backslashes, and also converting relative paths into absolute ones? No, it can't handle it on ANY file system.

            Using the APIs correctly allows your program to handle it just fine.

            Specifically, taking *just* the example of CreateFile (which *also* opens existing files, but ...):

            * CreateFileA (MBCS version that works with "narrow" characters) cannot do it.

            * CreateFileW ("Unicode" or "Wide character" version) *can* do it.

            * Specifically, your filename must be fully parsed (so the *system* parser - it has nothing to do with NTFS as such - cannot handle it, you are right), with no elements being "." or "..", and all separators being backslashes and no stars or question marks, AND it must be an absolute path.

            * Then you must prefix the fully-parsed absolute path as described above with backslash backslash dot backslash. And yes, that means that if the absolute path is a UNC path, you end up with three backslashes in a row.

            If you do all that, you can access paths up to 32K-1 wide characters long. It's annoying, but overall the main annoyance, from the programming point of view, is having to work in wide characters.

            That Explorer doesn't use these APIs like this *could* be regarded as lazy programming, or it could be regarded as a deliberate decision to protect the user from feebleminded software that doesn't know how to handle super-long paths. (Notably, I'm not sure how CreateProcess and ShellExecute handle these paths.)

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019