back to article Sniffing substations will solve 'leccy car charging woes, reckons upstart

A power consumption monitoring startup reckons its substation monitoring technology can be used to help the spread of electric car charging points. The OpenLV project aims to deploy a “low cost substation intelligence platform” that monitors local low voltage* substations and meshes them together to supply extra current as …

TRT
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Access to the Open LV dataset...

available for no charge?

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Potentially (at least that's the current situation)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

I see watt you did there

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Ohm my god, these puns are terrible.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

I don't know how you generate so many? They do have potential though.

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Armature I have seen worse

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Which bright spark started this? These puns are re volt ing, they are so bad it Hertz.

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Ohm my god, these puns are terrible

Punners gonna pun - resistance is futile

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This post has been deleted by its author

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

"... electrickery firm EA Technology ..."

Ah, Catweazle. Will they be using the telling-bone circuits for data communication? (Yes, I've just shown how old I am. At least some of my memories are still working, but not the important ones I fear.)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

I need to learn how to pun like this, maybe I could study a course?

I wonder if they'll have an induction.

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

"Shine, tiny Sun in a bottle, shine!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cgIHS7am9g

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

"I wonder if they'll have an induction."

If they don't you may find you progress in 'ampere-d

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

I need to learn how to pun like this, maybe I could study a course?

I wonder if they'll have an induction.

-------

Only if you have the capacity for it.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

The Mho the merrier

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TRT
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Re: The Mho the merrier

How could we re-fuse?

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Wire you even asking? The course will be run in three phases. It'll transform your life.

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Some of the foregoing puns are real gems Joules.

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Coat

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Just couldn't resist, could you?

(such a capacity for puns, and so little reluctance)...

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Pint

Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Re-volting, aren't they :)

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Re: Access to the Open LV dataset...

Nothing could induce me to lower myself to this level - Although I can Siemens will crumbling from here. Just glad I have the capacity to resist.

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Anonymous Coward

Brave New World

"say 11kW, this would require 48 amps....... Using an 11kW charger would take six hours to fully charge a Tesla Model S, which also has a 90kWh battery,"

And when you start drawing 48 amps continuous from a domestic supply for 6 hours at a time, expect to see a dramatic increase in the number of house fires.

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TRT
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Re: Brave New World

I expect the 18th edition wiring regulations will include modules about high capacity chargers in the domestic scenario as well as micro-generation systems. You have no sound reason to be fearful. They're pretty hot about this sort of thing.

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Re: Brave New World

@AC - "And when you start drawing 48 amps continuous from a domestic supply for 6 hours at a time, expect to see a dramatic increase in the number of house fires."

No reason why unless you try and draw from the standard ring main! These chargers would and should be wired directly to the incoming mains supply via a fused sub-board. Not cheap and an interesting earner for the local sparks :-)

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Re: Brave New World

Chances are that these charging circuits, if they ever get installed, will run on their own dedicated wires with their own fuse on the house side of the meter, or even possibly with their own meter.

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Re: Brave New World

Surely a long term installation would include its own meter. How else will HMG be able to charge the higher VAT rate and fuel duty? Because one thing you can be damn sure of: they're not going to give up the £28 billion a year they currently get from petrol and diesel sales (pushing 60p/litre, according to an article in the Guardian).

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Re: Brave New World

Excise duty is 57.95p per litre. VAT is 20% of the pump price excluding VAT, so 1/6 of the price you pay. I paid £1.139 per litre last weekend, so 18.98p per litre in VAT. That means the total tax is 76.93p per litre, or 67.6% of the pump price.

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Re: Brave New World

Exactly how current ones are done. We have a 32 amp EV charge point. Regulations require a separate spur and breaker with separate ground spike from the EV point. There a lots of these already installed, as you get a 500 quid grant to do them.

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Re: Brave New World

Current regs on domestic EV points require a separate sub-meter with a GSM connection to a central data collection service, so it would be easy to apply an EV energy tax.

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Re: Brave New World

@ TRT: I expect the 18th edition wiring regulations will include modules about high capacity chargers in the domestic scenario as well as micro-generation systems. You have no sound reason to be fearful. They're pretty hot about this sort of thing.

Doesn't that rather overlook the fact that an 18th Edition will only really address installations carried out after its adoption? Think of all the premises that will be pre 18th Edition that would have to be reworked to make them compliant, at potentially huge cost.

Furthermore even if an 18th Edition addresses the "user" installation it will do nothing to uprate the supply side; think of all the roads and pavements that would have to be dug up to install cables adequate for the increased load.

Commonplace enough scenario; politicians get involved with technology with an outcome best described as delusional.

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DJO

Re: Brave New World

Surely a long term installation would include its own meter. How else will HMG be able to charge the higher VAT rate and fuel duty?

Too easy to circumvent either by charging slowly over the normal mains supply or by charging at work or a street charger or for the agricultural types, a generator running on red diesel.

My bet is the introduction of a mileage tax once electric cars are firmly ensconced. Much easier to collect as electric cars are all full of electronics and keep a records of pretty much everything and are all connected to the Internet (passengers will insist on WiFi) so like it or not the car will rat on you reporting your daily mileage to the nice man at the tax office.

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TRT
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Re: Brave New World

@commswonk.

First off, it was in reply to a concern about fire risk resulting from overloading, rather than a lack of supply. The draft 18th regulations do focus on improving resilience to fire by including arcing detection, a fault mode which isn't detected by RCCD.

Secondly, there is a specific section to do with installation of vehicle charging points, which is a formalisation of current industry best practice as alluded to in the replies of others.

Thirdly, the 18th edn is due to be adopted in July 2018, which isn't very far away.

Fourth, the installation of high capacity vehicle chargers will be done or tested by certified competent electricians as it will involve works covered under an Act of parliament.

So there will be an increased load on the supply infrastructure, and supply and distribution companies will have to pull their finger out. That's not what my reply was about - my reply was on the domestic wiring and fire risk in houses. The streets exploding under your feet is a completely different kettle of fish (don't plug it in!)

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Re: Brave New World

"The streets exploding under your feet is a completely different kettle of fish (don't plug it in!)"

And happens very frequently in London.

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TRT
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Re: And happens very frequently in London.

It's not that new of a phenomenon either. My friend was traumatised when the pavement blew up, but then, she was working in a basement room where the section of the room with the lowered ceiling actually protruded out under the pavement. The cable blew the ceiling in that area down, as well as sending the pavement above it up. That was about 22 years ago. She still jumps at loud noises.

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Re: EV GSM and metering?

The PodPoint Type 2 CP that I had installed a couple of months ago has none of that gubbins.

Perhaps this is only for the higher charge rates.

Anyway, if HMG start charging me an extra energy tax to charge my EV at home, it will only spur me on to install 20-30KWh of battery which will get charged by my 2.8KW Solar array. Then I'll go off grid and the Chancellor can go sing somewhere else for the money.

As for the costs of PV and batteries... These increase the value of your home more than the cost.

The problem of reducing income from flogging Petrol/Diesel will need to be solved how but I'm not a politician so... you fill in the blanks.

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Trollface

Re: Brave New World

Some more realistic charging times for city commuting without rewiring or damaging your leccy bill:

Standard charger (included) 2A charger (80% charge in 3-3.5 hours, 100% in 4-5 hours)

Fast charger (optional accessory) 4A charger (80% charge in 1.5-2 hours, 100% in 2.5-3 hours) - additional £115

Reservable now for delivery in 2018 (which is faster than a Tesla Model 3):

https://www.brompton.com/brompton-gbr/uk-store/bikes/Brompton-Electric-Reservation-Deposit/c-24/c-77/p-2897

50 mile range and you can still get you home even if the battery goes flat :-)

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Re: EV GSM and metering?

"

Anyway, if HMG start charging me an extra energy tax to charge my EV at home, it will only spur me on to install 20-30KWh of battery which will get charged by my 2.8KW Solar array. Then I'll go off grid and the Chancellor can go sing somewhere else for the money.

"

So with that 2.8kW solar array you could charge your car once every 4 days - provided it's sunny and you don't use electricity for anything else.

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

Re: Brave New World

"That's for a pansy e-bicycle ... not for a car that ... goes a lot faster, so at least an order of magnitude more propulsion power required, moron!"

Not faster in most cities my friend. Oh and the pansy non-electric version is good for touring Europe. Yep, Mt Ventoux would have been a little challenging but now with a little assistance?

Hope you keep your day job Rex ;-)

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Re: EV GSM and metering?

Anyway, if HMG start charging me an extra energy tax to charge my EV at home,

Not the preferred model. Government have already looked at and (in effect) chosen road pricing as their future model, although they're not sure how they will actually do it. I expect it'll be GPS real time tracking, possibly using the e-call capability (you remember they said there wouldn't be any scope creep? Not that anybody believed them). Because GPS isn't always that accurate they might struggle with road specific charges, though time of use would be easy. Busy or trunk roads might see higher pricing by using ANPR in parallel with the GPS tracking. Additional great benefits for government include charging you more when it suits them, a vast database of everybody's movements, the ability to issue speeding and parking tickets automatically.

But regardless of that, your EV charging costs will at least double anyway, for two reasons - first the continuing "climate change panic" changes to the energy systems, and all the subsidy fuelled PV, wind, and network changes, that's putting up your charges every year for the next decade as a minimium, and second because with the emergence of EV charging demand and static battery storage for peak loads, the idea of really cheap off peak electricity is doomed, because as off peak demand rises significantly, so will overnight power prices.

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Re: Brave New World

"My bet is the introduction of a mileage tax once electric cars are firmly ensconced."

And that will probably be in addition to duty and VAT on electricity and VED (once called the Road Fund but damn-all of that gets spent on roads these days). Don't expect the Treasury to just take once.

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Re: EV GSM and metering?

"The problem of reducing income from flogging Petrol/Diesel will need to be solved how but I'm not a politician"

But don't expect those who are to wring it out of you one way or another.

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Re: Brave New World

"Some more realistic charging times for city commuting without rewiring or damaging your leccy bill:...https://www.brompton.com/brompton-gbr/uk-store/bikes/Brompton-Electric-Reservation-Deposit/c-24/c-77/p-2897

Which city? Some of them have more hills than others.

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Re: EV GSM and metering?

"Government have already looked at and (in effect) chosen road pricing as their future model"

That'll be an additional charge. Remember that temporary provision of income tax is still with us.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Green remembered Hills

"Some [cities] have more hills than others."

True, but in most cities where there are hills to climb, there are equivalent hills to descend too, where the regenerative braking concept (kinetic energy recovery system, whatever) might be of benefit.

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Using an 11kW charger would take six hours to fully charge a Tesla Model S, ... from the 25 per cent full state.

So a 3.5kW charger is likely to take between 18 and 20 hours to charge an equivalent vehicle, therefore people will be much more likely to use a higher wattage device.

This means that the following:

The project concluded that across Britain 32 per cent of low voltage circuits (312,000) will require reinforcing when 40 per cent –70 per cent of customers have EVs based on 3.5kW chargers.”

...is a load of rubbish, and that actually the current electrical infrastructure is unlikely to support any serious uptake of electrical vehicles.

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Back of the envelope calculation suggests that the amount of energy used in fuel by domestic vehicles alone is approximately the same as the National Grid currently generates.

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Are you taking relative efficiencies into account?

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Even the most simple back of the envelope calculation will immediately show that large scale uptake of electric cars is going to lead to exceeding the amount of spare capacity that the grid can generate at the moment.

This is a bit of a problem, since the closure of our coal and most of our old nuclear plants by 2025 is going to leave us with much less capacity than we have now. Yet we are expected to have more capacity available for electric cars despite not building it, and people actively objecting to building any practical scale power generation.

I spy a design flaw, and power cuts waiting to happen.

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