back to article Drunk canoeing no longer driving offence in Canada

Canada is preparing to remove drunk canoeing as an impaired driving offence, ahead of its plans to legalize marijuana. Currently the country's Criminal Code means that police hand out drunk driving charges to tipsy canoeists, according to The National Post. At the moment offenders can continue to canoe, as that does not …

sounds like a joke but...

I actually got a ticket for operating a vehicle on a federal waterway ( the Trent-Severn waterway) while drinking an alcoholic beverage.

2pm and 10ft from the dock, I was in the stern with beer in hand, hence the operating part, when a police boat showed up. The best part was that the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) officer asked for a piece of id; I was in a bathing suit.

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Re: sounds like a joke but...

Should have been dead easy then to slip your id out of your bathing suit for them to look at.

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Unhappy

Re: sounds like a joke but...

There is a justification for discouraging drinking and canoeing, although not necessarily through fines. About a quarter of all adult corpses pulled out of the water have alcohol in their bloodstream. http://www.rlss.org.uk/about-us/campaigns/dont-drink-drown/

There is much scientific evidence that alcohol consumption is a major risk factor for drowning, e.g. http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/2/107.short

The problem explained to me when I was learning scuba diving it is that even quite moderate amounts of alcohol attenuates the gag reflex and so taking water into the lungs becomes much more likely.

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mtp

Re: sounds like a joke but...

Darwin?

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Re: sounds like a joke but...

About a quarter of all adult corpses pulled out of the water have alcohol in their bloodstream. ...

There is much scientific evidence that alcohol consumption is a major risk factor for drowning,

Sounds back to front. If 75% of people drowning are sober, and only 25% have alcohol in their systems, sounds like sobriety's to blame! ☺

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Re: sounds like a joke but...

The logic is that if you only stand to injure yourself, it should be legal. It's also not illegal to ride a bicycle drunk, although that's also a really bad idea.

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Re: sounds like a joke but...

Riding a bicycle drunk could endanger other people, if he was on the roadway and caused cars to have to swerve to miss him. A drunk boater (with a power boat) could collide with another boat and cause injury. But a drunk canoeist can only hurt himself and anyone else in the canoe with him.

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FAIL

Re: sounds like a joke but...

Actually in California it is in fact illegal to ride your bicycle on public streets while intoxicated. Friend of mine got charged with this in Laguna Beach.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: sounds like a joke but...

As a post grad student I quite frequenlty got stuck in the pub after heading out for lunch.. I'd always have to head back to the lab to switch off my lab appuratus... I was studying the Andrussow process so that was the 1st bad move. The second bad move was to cycle home via the curry house or chippy. It's surprising I survived.

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Canoeing test

I'm wondering if there's an on the spot test for a suspect canoeist such as paddle in a straight line for 20 yards without rolling over, get in and out without it going all wobbly and carrying it along the bank without hitting anything.

80% fail rate.

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Coat

Re: Canoeing test

Having seen many a canoeist, I'd have said that tipsy is always the appropriate adjective to describe them

Coat needs to dry out ------------>

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How Legal?

Apologies, and am aware that search engines are available. But they are making it proper legal? Nip into the newsagent legal?

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Re: How Legal?

That's the plan -- by July 1 2018. "I'll take a two-four of Canadian and two hundred grams of BC Bud, please."

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Re: How Legal?

As legal as alcohol. Which where I live means you have to nip in to the government-run store that sells it.

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Re: How Legal?

'As legal as alcohol'

Wow. For me, perfect sense, I've genuinely never seen the difference in the way the 2 are treated, save that there would be a revolution if booze was banned. Hopefully the world will watch and learn.

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Re: How Legal?

Legal to the point where you would be able to grow plants (up to 3?) for personal consumption.

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Re: How Legal?

<quote>Hopefully the world will watch and learn.</quote>

WRT alcohol, most likely the rest of the world learned a valuable lesson from the years of stupidity that resulted from the 18th Amendment (aka Prohibition) [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution ].

It (Prohibition) is a testament to the folly of a small minority of religious zealots who try to impose their morals on the greater society. Some may put the contemporary "Right to Life" anti-abortion sympathizers into this category.

The "War on Drugs" has been often considered a failed strategy, with sentencing disparities, depending on jurisdiction and offender, offering a glimpse into the mindset of legislators. (White offender/powdered cocaine vs Black offender/crack for example.)

Fortunately, public attitudes WRT marijuana are slowly changing.

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WTF?

Really?

"At the moment offenders can continue to canoe, as that does not require a licence, but may face automatic driver's licence suspensions, steep fines, demerit points, ignition unlocking devices and vehicle impoundment."

This is a joke isn' it???

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Re: Really?

That's how the law works in the UK. Get caught riding a pushiron whilst inebriated and you can get your driving license taken away as though you were driving a car.

I'm not sure what the punishment is if you don't own a driving license.

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Re: Really?

In the UK you can be licensed to drive, but there's no such thing as a 'driving license'.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Really?

Are you sure?

It clearly says Driving Licence on the bit of plastic the DVLA sent me.

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DJO

Re: Really?

In the UK you can be licensed to drive, but there's no such thing as a 'driving license'.

Then what is the piece of pink plastic in my wallet with "UK Driving Licence" in capital letters across the top?

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Re: Really?

You just answered your own question - it's a Driving Licence.

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Headmaster

Re: Really?

Arty; You dropped this ---->

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Happy

Re: Really?

This is a joke isn' it???

A very Canadian one.

They like their humor dry, apparently.

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

In Canada the police can make laws and they do make laws, some times with zero public consultation and little to no advertising of the changes.

Some of these police created laws carry a minimum jail time of 3yrs to a max of 10yrs. People who get charged are always represented in the media as criminals who get what they deserve so is is very rare that any charges result in the public learning about any uncomfortable details. If the discussion happens to occur the media will question why anyone wouldn't agree, they never question the method of law creation.

Never is the nature of how laws are created in Canada seriously questioned or made into the ongoing discussion it should be. Even when it is the police or enforcement that creates the law, by writ or enforcement and/or the crown attorney, Canadian media remains quiet, claiming that their only role is to sell clicks and papers, and meet the requirements of the CRTC that rules them.

That Canada, a sovereign nation with no Royal Family or legal colonial connection to any Nation ruled by Royality, still has "Crown Attorneys" should have at least Canadians asking questions about their political and legal systems.

If they did they would notice that most important positions in their systems are appointed. Of the 3 main political branches in Canada 2 are filled by Royal Appointment. The only branch that has elected members is the House which is subject to party rule which prevents those elected from representing the concerns of their constituents, at least if they want to remain. No laws can be passed without approval of those Royally Appointed. Most top positions in government are filled by Royal Appointment, including the CRTC that rules Canadian media.

And the police can make laws, something those ruling via Royal Privilege, have found to be very convenient, which is why Canada's police agency reports to the PMO with no interference from citizens or their representatives, or accountability.

Britain pulled out of Canadian politics and law making in the 1920's but Canada continues to be ruled by a Royal Elite, that has no claim to Royalty other than that granted by power and position. Canadians should notice this when they lose their driving license for non-driving reasons, or for activities that do not require a driving license. A political system in which the citizens decided which laws they lived under would at least allow such questions and have many open discussions.

But that isn't Canada. In Canada citizens can, and people have, lost their drivers license and ability to function in a car based society, including losing jobs, due to police created laws and enforcement.

Something those ruling Canada would rather we not talk about.

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Drink cycling in UK

Section 30 of the RTA 1988 states:

A person who, when riding a cycle on a road or other public place, is unfit to ride through drink or drugs (that is to say, is under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the cycle) is guilty of an offence.

However the maximum penalty is a £1000 fine, and there is no legal right for the police to request a breathalyser or blood test to "prove".

The only way to lose your driving license from drink cycling is if you are disqualified from driving under the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 which applies to *ANY* offence. AFAIK this is rarely used, and courts have never imposed this for cycling offences!

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Re: Really?

I assume he's one of those cyclists who claim there's no such thing as road tax.

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

" Canada, a sovereign nation with no Royal Family or legal colonial connection to any Nation ruled by Royality" except for Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, you mean ? Yeah, appart from her, no connection to a monarch whatsoever.

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Re: Drink cycling in UK

A friend at uni got done for drink cycling, He would have got away with it but he was on the back seat of a tandem,

And the only one on the tandem.

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

Suggesting Elizabeth II, is "Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand," shows a typical and complete ignorance of Canada, how it is ruled and governed.

That level of ignorance was causing enough trouble and expense that Britain made it as clear as was possible almost 100yrs ago that their King, or any future King or Queen, had no official role in the governance of Canada.

It could not have been said any clearer, yet people remain ignorant, willfully ignorant, as willfully ignorant as those that believe Santa Claus actually brings them presents and as a result there are no costs to those presents.

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Have an up vote!

(@Arty Effem)

Too subtle by 'arf!

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

Checking just to be certain:

Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Baroness Greenwich, Duke of Lancaster, Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy, Sovereign of the Most Honourable Order of the Garter, Sovereign of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Sovereign of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Sovereign of the Most Illustrious Order of Saint Patrick, Sovereign of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Sovereign of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Sovereign of the Distinguished Service Order, Sovereign of the Imperial Service Order, Sovereign of the Most Exalted Order of the Star of India, Sovereign of the Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire, Sovereign of the Order of British India, Sovereign of the Indian Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Burma, Sovereign of the Royal Order of Victoria and Albert, Sovereign of the Royal Family Order of King Edward VII, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of the Companions of Honour, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem, Sovereign of the Order of Canada, Sovereign of the Order of Australia, Sovereign of the Order of New Zealand, Sovereign of the Order of Barbados, Sovereign of the Order of Valour, Sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Sovereign of the Queen’s Service Order, Sovereign of the New Zealand Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of St. Andrew, Sovereign of the Order of Logohu, Sovereign of the Order of the Star of Melanesia

Yes, that's the one. ☺

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

Sorry, you're not correct. The Queen of England can even declare Canada at war with another country and the statutory head of the Canadian government (Governor General) reports directly to her. While she doesn't actually exert her authority, it's there on the books. Canada didn't even become a fully separate country until the Constitution Act was signed in 1982. I feel like you might have slept through the mandatory Canadian history class in high school.

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Coat

@Haefen -- Re: Really? It's not a joke.

Wait a minute.. back up here... Santa doesn't bring us presents? Really? But then, I'm not Canadian...

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

Anyone concerned can search for the Balfour Declaration of 1926 but then it is likely they would already know the GG is appointed by and answers to the Prime Minister, the PMO which happens to control the House as I mentioned. There is no mechanism for the Queen to act, the GG does not report to her, even you seem aware of that when you refer to the patriation of the Constitution. Canada is a fully separate country, no Monarch, no Royalty, no asking Britain for permission to change our own laws.

Which is an example of the lack of discussion. Point out facts in Canada and people like Jon jump up and down, dance and lights, anything to avoid Canadians talking about the facts of Canada and how it could be better. Distraction is more important than a discussion on citizens having an ability to have a say in, or even decide, the laws under which they live.

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Re: @Haefen -- Really? It's not a joke.

In Canada people, like Jon, believe Santa brings presents because NORAD tracked his sleigh and it was shown on the CBC. Which is fine, except they also vote, as told to by the CBC.

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@Haefen

Speaking as a Canadian - and one who apparently has quite a bit more knowledge of what you're babbling about than you do - I would like to, in the kindest, politest possible way convey my feelings about your inane babble:

ODFO

Cheers.

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Windows

Re: Really? It's not a joke.

@Haefen:

You are an american of the tea party type. Please go home. And please leave the fertilizer in the farm yard.

I claim my Laurier/Spock

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

You're wrong, both about your claim that "police make the laws" in Canada, and the Queen. Legally, the Queen of Canada is a separate entity from the Queen of England - they just both happen to be embodied in Elizabeth II.

Next time you pull out a $20 bill, that's the Queen of Canada on it. Or just look at the Wikipedia entry for "Monarchy of Canada": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada

"Although the person of the sovereign is equally shared with 15 other independent countries within the Commonwealth of Nations, each country's monarchy is separate and legally distinct.[23] As a result, the current monarch is officially titled Queen of Canada and, in this capacity, she, her consort, and other members of the Canadian Royal Family undertake public and private functions domestically and abroad as representatives of Canada. However, the Queen is the only member of the Royal Family with any constitutional role."

Only the federal government has jurisdiction over criminal law, which is why Canada, unlike the US, has one criminal code for the whole country. Provinces are in charge of civil laws, which is why civil laws can vary from province to province or territory. Provinces cannot make any activity a criminal offense.

Canada is not a republic, and judging from the insanity south of the border, that's a good thing. Then again, there's also the crazies knee-capping the UK by pushing for Brexit.

Maybe Canada can take your place in the EU. It would certainly give more leverage when dealing with Trump's trade protectionism.

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Re: Really? It's not a joke.

<quote>Distraction is more important than a discussion on citizens having an ability to have a say in, or even decide, the laws under which they live.</quote>

Otherwise known as Page 2 in the 'Donald Trump' version of "How to Run Ruin a Country".

Most recent example - tweeting about (North American) football players who kneel instead of stand for the Pledge of Allegiance; instead of whipping FEMA into gear, and sorting out the logistical nightmares that plague Puerto Rico and other US possessions affected by those damn hurricanes.

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Re: Really? It's not a joke, though Barb seems to be

Barb, please do some reading. Search ruger 10/22 magazine and follow the legal discussion. If you do not believe the police make laws in Canada walk into a police station with one of the prohibited magazines and leave with it. Be sure to post the video showing the police agreeing with you.

The Queen or any Queen has ZERO role in Canadian politics. Again read the Balfour declaration of 1926 and the process of Constitutional changes. Notice the complete lack of any Royalty having any role beyond the ceremonial, beyond the role Santa has in actually putting presents under your xmass tree.

Canada is not a republic, but without an actual Monarch it cannot be an actual Constitutional monarchy. More accurately it is a Constitutional Oligarchy that uses Royal Privilege with it's thousands of appointments, including that of the Senate and the Court combined with party discipline in the only branch with any elected members to ensure the ongoing operation of Canada to it's benefit.

Canadian voters can change nothing without the approval of the appointed Senate and Court and there is no Queen for them to appeal to, no Queen to step in and see that the wishes of the people be reflected in law.

Again if you doubt any of that walk into a police station, read a little about your own political history, and chart the response in Canada, and it's political systems, should any Monarch actually attempt to have any input at all into our political process.

Anyone reading this should do their own searches as it is clear that Canadians have no clue as to how their political system actually works, or at best disagree on it. Is the Senate Appointed? Is the Court Appointed? Does the system answer to the Queen, does party discipline prevent the House from representing citizens? Do your own searches.

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Re: Really? It's not a joke, though Barb seems to be

"no Queen to step in and see that the wishes of the people be reflected in law."

In fact yes there is. There is a provision in the constitution that the Queen of Canada* has to support the PM unless he loses the support of the House (i.e. the People, or so it should).

Your incoherent babling about royally appointed people who are really self-appointed is amusing by the level of delusion and conspiracy theory. While the Queen's power is largely theoretical, the "royal" appointments are really the Queen rubber-stamping proposition by the PM, who happens to be elected and not self-appointed. So instead of the PM directly appointing these people like what happens in the other countries, he has to have the Queen (or, mostly, her representant) to rubberstamp his propositions. I can see how the slight complication can confuse the simpletons, but someone as clever as you are surely can grasp that simple concept?

Cheers

* who really is Elisabeth II, and you denying it won't change that fact

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Pint

"ignition unlocking devices and vehicle impoundment"

This needs some clarification.

If they mean to your car, why would tippy canoeing (Tyler too-ing) result in your automobile being impounded? The canoe I could see, but the truck / SUV / car / whatever that the canoe rode in on, that seems both rather inappropriate and excessive.

But if it goes the other way and they mean to impound your canoe, then what ignition is there on a canoe to (un)lock? Maybe you could handcuff the paddles together or something, but that's still a very inaccurate description.

And are kayaks also covered? What about rowboats in general? Dinghies?

I think this needs further study. I think it's time for a field trip to Canada and a ___load of beer.

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Re: "ignition unlocking devices and vehicle impoundment"

I guess the logic is that if you are daft enough to "operate" one kind of vehicle while drunk, then you are likely to be daft enough to operate other types too.

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Ignition locks?

I am Canadian and own 5 canoes and not a single one of them has an ignition lock. Maybe it is a historical allusion to English canoes?

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Re: Ignition locks?

My parents had a canoe with a ignition lock when I was a youngster, it was called a Pinto

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Re: Ignition locks?

I spent a lovely holiday on Vancouver Island and dropped into a bar on an island off Vancouver Island on a Friday night and met a lot of heavily drinking oyster farmers many of whom lived on islands off the island that was off Vancouver island. Vancouver Island has a lot of logging going on and the sea contains a lot of lost logs and it was not unheard of for people leaving the bar never to be heard of again having hit one of these logs in the dark while pissed in charge of a boat with a massive outboard. I did see some of them set off over the moonlit ocean and decided a moonlight swim was not really an option.

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Re: Ignition locks?

A great little place, the Dinghy Dock Pub, isn't it? I've paddled back in the dark from there myself.

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Re: Ignition locks?

Not sure - it was on Quadra. Marvelous pub - though when I walked in a First Nations bloke came up to me and asked if I wanted to fight. I'm 6'5 (and an utter coward) and I politely declined and we became drinking buddies once he worked out I was not a merkin. I think a rush of adrenalin is a good way to start the juice flowing.

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