back to article Linus Torvalds may have damned systemd with faint praise

Linux 4.13 is under way. Linus Torvalds pulled one of his semi-surprises by announcing release candidate one on Saturday, rather than issuing his usual Sunday evening missive. The headline features of the next kernel include support for Intel's forthcoming 10nm Cannonlake CPUs, due later this year, and the 14nm Coffeelake that …

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"Torvalds' likley ire"

Odd. Usually it's quite easy to tell if he's pissed off about something.

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I look forward to his post when systemd *really* gets his goat.

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"Odd. Usually it's quite easy to tell if he's pissed off about something."

I take it you mean that usually he swears. Have you considered the possibility that it's normally the ones where that happens that get widely reported and that you're falling victim to sampling bias?

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I'm glad he's grown up. His swearing and tantrum throwing was embarrassing to read.

I guess he must have believed that he was a "God", until he realized he isn't. He's born the same way we are and he'll leave this world the same way we all will.

I felt the same kind of embarrassment for Steve Jobs when he believed he was a God and believed he could "will away" his cancer. Ultimately he was not a God, and he left this world the same way everyone else has and will.

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"you're falling victim to sampling bias"

My tongue was so far in my cheek when I made that post that I looked like a hamster. I quite enjoy the times he tells like it is. If you consider that half the Reg readership moves to DEFCOM 2 at the first mention of systemd; I suspect that he is somewhat annoyed by it but either considers it outside his remit; or is tempered by the fact that he's currently got nothing to slide into it's place without messing up a lot of people, so "going Full Linus" at this stage wouldn't be that sensible.

Plus, from the sound of things, the systemd guy probably wouldn't take criticism well.

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"My tongue was so far in my cheek when I made that post that I looked like a hamster. I quite enjoy the times he tells like it is."

OK, cheers, mate.

"Plus, from the sound of things, the systemd guy probably wouldn't take criticism well."

I'm not sure he sees it. I think he has a program to handle bug reports. It's called wontfixd.

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Devil

"Plus, from the sound of things, the systemd guy probably wouldn't take criticism well."

Poor widdle snowflake! Is *THAT* why systend is still there? Because saying the TRUTH about systemd might HURT HIS WIDDLE FEELINGS?

OK that's just my 'over the top' reaction but I bet I wasn't the _ONLY_ one out there thinking that...

However, it could be that the systemd fans need to get out of their "safe spaces" and smell the sewage... as in, when you exist entirely in a bubble-world, and only hear from fanbois and sycophantic wannabes, you end up with gnome 3, systemd, and WIN-10-NIC. 'Nuff on that, yeah.

It took a while for Linus to blow up over gnome 3. Same kinds of people made systemd. It'll happen. This is like the rumbling before the volcano goes KABOOM.

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You silly person. He has always been our god, there was actually a meme at one time.

You are probably a systemd user. Poor fools trapped in their inability to use an actual Lunix OS, and stuck with some kind of butu hack.

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Anonymous Coward

DEFCON 2

DEFCON 2

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close, its called gitdon't

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Headmaster

@Aynon. When you refer to a god, there's no capital letter. When you refer to God, then there is, and He'll know if you get it wrong.

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This post has been deleted by its author

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Oh come on. A deity? Really?

Deleted the above because it wasn't polite.

I do not believe. Your deity is cordially invited to bring it.

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I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

ALL supposed $DEITYs are cordially invited to kiss my pasty white butt.

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Devil

Re: I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

% rm $DEITY

rm: /nonexistent: No such file or directory

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

Euphoric.

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Linux

Tantrums

A well placed tantrum can be more effective than a cold sarcastic statement. Linus seems to know this and uses it effectively.

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"When you refer to a god, there's no capital letter. When you refer to God, then there is, and He'll know if you get it wrong."

Which largely depends of course on which one of the roughly 3,000 different branches of sky fairy belief on this planet that you might happen to adhere to....

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Headmaster

Nope.

God is the proper name of the Judeo-Christian deity, so the name is capitalized, as Symon said. Not unlike the distinction done while talking about the Moon or Saturn's moons...

Also, all 3000+ deities out there are entitled to capital letters in their names, as do Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Their existential status has nothing to do with the rules on proper nouns.

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If you consider that half the Reg readership moves to DEFCOM 2 at the first mention of systemd

There's a good reason for that. Systemd is a horrendous bit of code being foisted on us by a small group that refuses to take constructive criticism as a cue to improve their product. And, on top of that, some of their decisions are just stupid to begin with. For instance, what kind of fool thinks binary logs are a good idea? What are you supposed to do with those when you can't get into the system, the time you need the logs most? And that's just one of a dozen major design flaws with it. Forget the fact that the entire thing utterly fails the test of doing one thing well and instead is mediocre at a whole bunch of things. It's just got flawed premises at the foundations.

There's an axim that states that a complex system that's broken will be found to have either evolved from or replaced a simple system that worked just fine. This is absolutely the case with systemd. Fortunately, at least for the time being, most of us (sorry Gnome users) can switch to OpenRC instead.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

ALL supposed $DEITYs are cordially invited to kiss my pasty white butt.

Why does it seem that folks around here seem absolutely rabid to take a poke at religion? You believe - or don't - whatever you want and let others do the same. Why is that so difficult? Why do we have to be uncivil to each other over the issue? This sort of thing annoys me greatly.

For the record, I'm not even sure what - or if - I believe concerning religion anymore. I've had a years long crisis of faith fueled by a combination of scientific knowledge and certain life changing events which, barring a visit from some celestial being, seems unlikely to be fully resolved till the day I die. But whatever I believe I'm perfectly happy with it.

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>God is the proper name of the Judeo-Christian deity

Nobody knows the proper name of the Judeo-Christian deity, the last time it was used was in 70AD.

Which is a good job because "the name" tends to get all bronze age on your ass if you use it.

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Big Brother

Re: I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

"Why does it seem that folks around here seem absolutely rabid to take a poke at religion?"

It's because a lot of people believe that, rather than a benign bit of fun, religion can be harmful. For sure, no-one is going to mind people going along every Sunday for a bit of a sing-song and getting together with friends. The problem for folks on here, I suspect, is when religions start espousing things that are harmful, for example the Pope and his condoms ban spreading AIDS across Africa, or Islamic preachers claiming that measles vaccines are an American anti-Muslim plot.

Anyway, I take your point that there's a polite way to criticise religion, as this example from the 'Portadown news' shows. It was written in Northern Ireland, a province riven into two populations, one of which believes in transubstantiation, and another that doubts it.

'Jesus votes DUP' - claim

by our religious affairs correspondent, Helen Brimstone

Jesus would vote DUP claims Ken Elliot, High Priest at Portadown's Bethany First Presbyterian Church. The controversial claim was made during Mr Elliot's Sunday sermon.

"The signs are clear, to the righteous," screamed Mr Elliot from his pulpit. "Jesus was unemployed, lived with his mum, hung around with his mates all day talking politics, and was always getting into trouble with the Romans. Clearly he was a DUP supporter."

However a spokesperson for the Electoral Commission has denied Mr Elliot's claims. "Mr Christ has been removed from the voting register," she told us, "as he has been dead for 1,972 years."

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Re: I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

"Why does it seem that folks around here seem absolutely rabid to take a poke at religion?"

Symon's post pointing out Aynon Yuser's use of capitalisation was fine up to a point (although it didn't cover the -valid in my view- edge case of deliberately spelling what would normally be a proper noun without capitalisation as a political statement).

But then he finished it off with "and He'll know if you get it wrong." If you threaten someone -however implicitly- with an imaginary construct then be prepared to have your bluff called.

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Re: I see your invite and raise you, moiety ...

I poke at religion because I see it as a waste of human minds. Religions, by definition, teach the young that it's bad to learn to think for yourself. If by poking at archaic belief systems I can start even one kid thinking for him/erself instead of looking at the world by rote, I will have accomplished something useful.

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praise?

How does saying that the kernel should be doing something instead putting any trust in init to do the right thing indicate praise?

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Re: praise?

The word praise was used sarcastically. In fact 'faint praise' is fairly standard English language idiom meaning the opposite of praise.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/damn-with-faint-praise

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Linux

Re: praise?

For example "systemd actually sucks slightly less than some really bad bits of init".

HTHHND

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Re: praise?

It might be my eyes but I can't see any praise at all.

I'm waiting for the day when he goes full Linus on Poettering. It's not as if there haven't been enough reasons to do that already.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: praise?

It might be my eyes but I can't see any praise at all.

You are correct.

To be able to describe a comment about something as being "faint praise", there needs to be some sort of explicit complement which, upon reflection, is notable for being deliberately inadequate to properly encompass all aspects of the subject of the conversation.

Describing a lady's hat as being "good at keeping the sun off" would imply that all its more important characteristics (style, elegance, etc) are not to one's own taste and are deeply underwhelming.

Linus could have said the "amusing features of init" were the reason for the patch. That would be faint praise; an init is not supposed to be amusing.

An init written in Brainfuck or Whitespace could be pleasantly described as amusing, because the author of such a thing would undoubtedly be doing it for the kicks and laughs, even if it did end up being better than systemd.

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Re: praise?

>In fact 'faint praise' is fairly standard English language idiom meaning the opposite of praise.

Aware of that but there was no praise at all in what Linus wrote.

I.e. had Linus written "we can rely on init to expose where the kernel needs to ignore it" that would have been *faint praise*. But he didn't. He said we can't trust it outright.

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Re: faint praise?

Thank you for the timely explanation of the term "faint praise" Mark 110.

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Go

Re: full Linus on Poettering

Wow, I am actually surprised he hasn't. I hit Reply planning to link to the rant in question; all I could find was an open letter from Poettering complaining about abuse from the Linux Community (not Linus per se, but he said Torvalds wasn't doing anything to stop it) and a "Full Linus" rant on Kay Sievers for issues in systemd.

I am now looking forward to a "Full Linus" on Poettering, as well.

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Re: full Linus on Poettering

"I hit Reply planning to link to the rant in question"

I think there was a complaint when Fedora went systemd but I can't remember the terms it was written in and CBA to find it.

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Ah. Missed that. Ta, ElReg.

The first death rendered-into-obscurity knell for systemd has sounded. About bloody time.

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Re: Ah. Missed that. Ta, ElReg.

"The first death rendered-into-obscurity knell for systemd has sounded. About bloody time."

I wish that were so, but Pottering and his paymasters Dead Rat seem to have a Jobs like reality distortion field around them that deflects and destroys any criticism of systemd while simultaniously brainwashing distro maintainers to embed this POS as soon as they can. The we-know-nest arrogance coming from these guys is really out of Apples playbook , chapter 1.

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Re: Ah. Missed that. Ta, ElReg.

"Only I see the light! Follow me for eternal salvation!"

I thought the end of bronze age was scheduled few thousand years ago...

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Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

Is there a technical reason for the 'lake' part or does someone just like lakes?

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

And is there going to be a Tealake? Or Beerlake? Or Ciderlake?

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Joke

Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

The marketing department vetoed both "Puddle" and "BecauseRyzen".

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

Baconlake, there is a great demand.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

"Baconlake, there is a great demand."

You might have something there, Jake, but it would need to become Baconbutty. That opens the door to a whole new series: Jambutty, Marmaladebutty, Marmitebutty (that really divides opinion).

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Holmes

Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

"Is there a technical reason for the 'lake' part or does someone just like lakes?"

"Intel has historically named integrated circuit (IC) development projects after geographical names of towns, rivers or mountains near the location of the Intel facility responsible for the IC."

HTH.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

"Butty" isn't a geological feature. But "Butte" is.

Baconbutte, Eggbutte, Chipbutte ... Nearly breakfast time here in California.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

You haven't noticed the pattern?

Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge;

Haswell, Broadwell;

Skylake, Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake

The first was the "tick" and the second was the "tock," but with the Lake series, Intel has abandoned tick-tock in favor of the more generic three-part process-architecture-optimization, leading to the three members of the Lake series.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

"Butty" isn't a geological feature. But "Butte" is.

I thought US portions rendered them a much the same size.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

Veronica Lake?

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Re: US Portions

Only a problem if you are served them in the UK (I'll wait while the laughter subsides) where you don't own the food you just paid for.

In the US it is expected that if you are served a gigantic portion of food you will have the common sense to ask for a take-out box after eating half of ithe meal.

No more gourmand criticism from the land of the see-through luncheon meat slice and the deep-fried Mars bar.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

Whiskylake has my preference. Or Whiskyloch, rather.

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Re: Cannonlake, kabylake, coffeelake, skylake

> And is there going to be a Tealake?

I believe that has been planned - with the launch announcement to take place somewhere in (or around) Boston.

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