back to article UK PM May's response to London terror attack: Time to 'regulate' internet companies

British prime minister Theresa May's statement in response to the terror attacks that saw seven people murdered in London on Saturday night has again called for internet companies to make life harder for those who would discuss hateful and violent ideologies. May's statement calls for four changes in the way the UK combats …

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Book stores.

We should ban book stores.

Clearly people who hang out at book stores know how to read. And book stores sometimes contain subversive material (Mein Kampf, The Little Red Book, Playboy. and the like). WE MUST NOT LET ACTUAL READERS READ INDISCRIMINATELY!!!!11one!!!!11!!1!!!eleven!!1one Next thing you know, they'll be actually TALKING about such matters!

Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?

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Re: Book stores.

"Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

Not a chance. In her mind the Internet is more scary and foreign than any terrorist, so it must be the cause of the problem!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Book stores.

"Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

Sigh.

If the idiot *voter* realized how bloody stupid it sounds, then she wouldn't say it

Remember that it's the same woman who decided to lead Brexit after campaigning for Remain for 2 years.

She only does what the majority wants to see

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Re: Book stores.

> And book stores sometimes contain subversive material (Mein Kampf, The Little Red Book, Playboy. and the like).

Where I live (Finland) there actually are laws against hate speech. So no Mein Kampf or other Nazi propaganda at bookstores.

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Re: Book stores.

Book stores are limited to an extent to what they can sell. Like it or not, there is a level of censorship.

The difficult bit is having a sensible discussion about what to do about the Internet. The Government doesn't get it, but nor do the people who believe that anything should be allowed.

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Unhappy

"Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

No.

Funny how over the last decade "The security services have intercepted dozens of threats" yet come election time and a contentious (and confusingly named) new law is going through parliament we have a pair couple within a month.

BTW that terrorist threat in perspective.

Since 7/7/05 there have been 36 deaths due to terrorism in the UK.

That's 4hrs 3 mins of the annual deaths related to smoking in NHS hospitals for 2014.

That's 7 Days 13 hrs and 40mins of UK read deaths in 2015.

Or 3 additional deaths a year since 2005.

And let's not forget who has been in been in power for most of that time and who was the Home Secretary.

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Re: Book stores.

"Where I live (Finland) there actually are laws against hate speech. So no Mein Kampf or other Nazi propaganda at bookstores."

In the UK too, but they are generally restricted​ to public places and terrorism related. Enforcement is patchy to say the least.

Many of Theresa May's speeches could be considered hate speech, like many politicians she targets a minority and rallies the majority against them. In Mein Campf it was the Jews and Communists, for TM it's immigrants and technology companies.

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Re: Book stores.

I heard terrorists have used mobile phones too. Best ban those. I reckon they shopped in tescos, asda, morrisons and sainsburys. Passport control and bag search at the entrance just in case.

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Re: Book stores.

We have laws against hate speech in the UK as well. Unfortunately a lot of the time it is either the Prime Minister or her minions doing the hate speeches.

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Re: "Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

I asked a colleague whether he worries about driving to work after a fatal accident is reported in the news, when he said there was no way he go near London after the Westminster attack. The discussion ended with me being effectively told that I shouldn't put these things into context.

I had said that it's pointless to worry about terrorism is you don't worry about all the things that are more likely to kill you, and I don't want to live my life jumping at every shadow.

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LDS
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Re: Book stores.

And many publishers refuse stupid books that are just violent propaganda. You don't earn money publishing and distributing them, so you don't - even if you don't have an ethic.

Mein Kampf has been for a long time forbidden in Germany - because one thing is to read it for historical or psychological reasons, another to believe in it - and its blood trail is too huge to ignore it.

Sure, you can still find terrorism propaganda books in some "underground" channels, but you have to be already involved, and their diffusion is quite limited. Not that they didn't caused their share of victims - just look at political terrorism in Europe in the 1970s-80s - and their attempts to look for more people in factories, schools and universities. I lived those years, and saw how some people could be influenced by violent propaganda.

Instead Google & C. can monetize even small, very dangerous contents, publishing them worldwide. Propaganda works, and can be very dangerous. People like to remember "1984" - but also, remember "Animal Farm" - and remember it was forbidden in those paradise that was the communist block....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Book stores.

Don't forget benefits claimants and the disabled.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Book stores.

Problem: if you make it illegal to distribute this material, you drive the distribution underground.

Maybe the government should tax it instead?

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Re: Book stores.

"Remember that it's the same woman who decided to lead Brexit after campaigning for Remain for 2 years."

I've always been a bit sceptical about that - I expected her to come out in favour of Leave.

And looking at now, with the way she's been going about it as PM, I still find it surprising that she came down on the side of Remain.

The sums. They don't add up.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Book stores.

"The sums. They don't add up." (c) Diane Abbott

More seriously, this is yet more shameless opportunism, which both main parties have done over the years. Mandarins want more control over Internet, talk minister into it, something happens, minister grabs opportunity. Then the part that doesn't get publicised: did it work, if so provide some level of evidence, and if not, provide both ministers and the mandarins loads of free personal publicity and P45s.

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Big Brother

Re: Book stores.

"People like to remember "1984" - but also, remember "Animal Farm" - and remember it was forbidden in those paradise that was the communist block...."

And speaking of 1984, this gif is worth at least 1000 words:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oKIP7cccWiJOq6DRu/giphy.gif

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Devil

Re: Book stores.

She sounds bloody stupid, but the alternative is admitting an underfunded police can't join the dots or it can but can't keep track of everyone at once and she underfunded them. It seems the attackers for both Manchester and London were reported to the police.

I hope Labour use this line of attack (defence) instead of standing there and taking it because it's too soon after the attack, when she inevitably parrots the usual vacuous insults given to her by Crosby.

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Re: Book stores.

Given that she personally oversaw the reduction in police numbers it's strange how she isn't apologising for saying the police federation was scaremongering when she announced those cuts.

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Re: Book stores.

So no Mein Kampf or other Nazi propaganda at bookstores.

Which is a pity - you cannot compare her rants with that and observe the nearly 1:1 plagiarism.

IMHO, that is wrong too. We should adopt the significantly more enlightened Irish attitude to this. I was on a tour around the Dublin castle a few weeks back and the guide was asked:

Q: "Why are you preserving all this artifacts from the British rule?"

A: "We like to TURN the pages of the book of history, not to BURN them".

There is a lesson to be learned there - we should neither BURN them ourselves, nor support anyone who does so.

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Re: Book stores.

'the alternative is admitting an underfunded police can't join the dots or it can but can't keep track of everyone at once and she underfunded them'

And what level of Police funding would prevent all terrorist attacks? How much more funding would have prevented this one. What wouldn't you be able to do because you'd spent all the budget on what is actually a relatively minor risk to life?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Book stores.

"like many politicians she targets a minority and rallies the majority against them."

This. We don't have any prospective leaders amongst the current lot that I can see.

Each of them identifies a section of society and tries to rally the rest of us against them by stoking fear, envy or both. Rich v poor, young v old, Scots v English, working v unemployed, indigenous v immigrants, leave v remain, religion. All of them are using divide and conquer tactics to try and stand on some section of society to lever themselves up into power.

A true leader would be able to stand up and speak to everyone without demonising some part of society to do it. To win by a majority, rather than simply being the largest minority as seems to be the aspiration at the moment, a leader would be able to say things in a way that makes the minorities feel like they were being heard, considered and respected, and the majorities that while they feel entitled and right, might also like to consider the opinions of people on the other side of the argument, who incidentally are not tory scum, left wing whingers, feckless single mothers, idle unemployed etc, they are just people with a different opinion. They all preach black and white binary arguments, and life is not like that.

You think Corbyn is an honest politician? Ah, so you are therefore an idiot who supports total communism, want free stuff for everyone then!

You support some of tory policy? So you are therefore an idiot and a miserable git who takes food from the mouths of babies, kick crutches from the disabled and enjoy anumal cruelty!

The problem with this childish binary view is that if your politics are centre ground and you can see some good in all (or most) camps, then you are not going to indicate support for anything or anyone because whatever you said is going to be reduced until it fits into one of the pigeon holes, at which point you become tory scum or a left wing idiot depending on who you were speaking to and which pigeon hole they managed to insert you (not your opinion) in. So both sides of any argument have a perfect echo chamber to reinforce their views in.

Show me a leader who is not jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon and can stand in front of us all and say stuff that includes everyone without putting down some section of society in the process, and I'll vote for them. United we stand!

Sorry, rant over, but I got a load of election shite through the door this morning and then I read this. It has given me indigestion. Beers all round before that gets banned!

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Re: Book stores.

And white vans. Ban all white vans.

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Re: Book stores.

"Many of Theresa May's speeches could be considered hate speech, like many politicians she targets a minority and rallies the majority against them. In Mein Campf it was the Jews and Communists, for TM it's immigrants and technology companies."

And as soon as she is in power she will start rounding them up and executing them.

Or not.

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Re: Book stores.

A true leader would be able to stand up and speak to everyone without demonising some part of society to do it.

And then be castigated by the Daily Mail as some sort of politically-correct weakling...

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Re: Book stores.

And white vans. Ban all white vans.

Seems a bit extreme when fitting 5mph speed limiters will help keep us much safer.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Book stores.

While striking the right cord (logic), at the same time you appear to be occupying an alternative time continuum, the world full of 7 bilion logical people.

I live in this world where I honestly can't expect anything from any politician other than what I've heard in the last 2 days, and none have disappointed me. Both in the UK and abroad, in every layer of political scum pond, local and national, there's general swooping onto this fresh slaughter to do what they always do: peck and peddle their own little agenda and score a few brownie points.

And as the voting masses in my world do not vote with logic (and don't read, past the 150 characters), they expect "something" to be done about what they do know, i.e. facebook, google, and oh, the internet thinny, exactly in this sequence. Do something. Whatever, just "something", so that their sense of comfort can be restored. And the poor PM only dispenses the usual placebo (wicked, filthy rich internet giants!), cause she knows no cure, but placebo will do, as always. Well, at least for the next 4 days.

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Re: "Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

Some years ago, in the days before the Internet, I was told that the police had visited the company that I worked for and we were all advised to take a different route to work each day - no problem, if fact I still vary my routes to and from work (it makes life interesting) although I never figured out why driving different routes helped when the end-points never changed.

Most of the "advice" from the authorities is for public consumption to calm everyone and give the impression that "something" is being done - if seems that the authorities never bother to put themselves in the terrorists shoes and think how to get around the new laws and regulations. It's never very difficult.

If the end it's society that has to change - hate and discrimination, on all sides, has to be eliminated - it's no good just suppressing it or pretending that it doesn't exist - America proves that doesn't work.

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Re: Book stores.

The sums. They don't add up.

The sums never add up with politicians because their numbers are all based on getting reelected and staying in power. How can you tell if a politician is lying ... their lips are moving.

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Re: Book stores.

>The sums never add up with politicians because their numbers are all based on getting reelected and staying in power. How can you tell if a politician is lying ... their lips are moving.

Now, they also appear to lie if posting on Twitter as well. We can no longer rely on the lips moving to predict non-truth.

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Re: Book stores.

But some people like demonising.

There's more than a few people who think first strike on NK or glassing parts of the Arabian desert would solve problems.

Maybe we should wonder why this lot seem to have a decent voting block in the UK?

Banning the Daily Heil as hate speech would be tempting.

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Happy

Re: Book stores.

While there are laws against hate speech, don't be silly, books are not "verboten" just like that. Try this library link:

https://haku.helmet.fi/iii/encore/search/C__Shitler,%20mein%20kampf__Orightresult__U?lang=fin

or why not this:

https://www.helmet.fi/en-US

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Re: Book stores.

I tried reading Mein Kampf. (Some time ago, when I read that there were steps being taken to ban it, I decided I should read it while I could still easily find it on the internet.)

I didn't get far. It was the most boring and mind numbing experience that I can remember. The only people who would want to read it (apart from academics, etc) would be people who want their existing views confirmed by an 'expert'.

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Coat

Re: Mein Campf

The musical?

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g e

Re: Mein Campf

Surely that would just be...

KAMPF!

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Re: "Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

That's called cherry picking the data to support your argument.

Why "since 7/7/05"?

Why not since 6/7/05?

Well because the number then jumps from 36 to 82, which doesn't look quite so rosy.

"And let's not forget who has been in been in power for most of that time and who was the Home Secretary." - Well Labour were in government from 2005-2010, and Theresa May became Home secretary in 2010. And let us remember that, during her tenure as Home Secretary & as PM many terrorist plots have been successfully disrupted by the security services. Far more than have actually been carried out in the UK as a matter of fact. If you're willing to credit her with failures in our security when they happen should you not also credit her with successes too? I don't even support the current government but everyone deserves a fair hearing.

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Re: Book stores.

And what level of Police funding would prevent all terrorist attacks? How much more funding would have prevented this one. What wouldn't you be able to do because you'd spent all the budget on what is actually a relatively minor risk to life?

I imagine funding for 20,000 more police, which is what her cutbacks translated into in real life, would have come in useful. Also see this.

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Re: Book stores.

"campaigning for Remain for 2 years."

AFAICS she only paid the minimum lip service to the campaign consistent with keeping her job after the anticipated Remain victory.

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Re: Book stores.

"I still find it surprising that she came down on the side of Remain."

Not surprising at all. Remain was expected to win and she wanted to keep her job. It wasn't so much coming down on the side of Remain. How much effective campaigning did she actually do?

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Re: Book stores.

"I hope Labour use this line of attack (defence) instead of standing there and taking it because it's too soon after the attack"

If they do and then win the election they'll change their tune PDQ. We might find ourselves with a new ID card scheme.

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Re: Book stores.

"How much more funding would have prevented this one."

Hard to say but inevitably we're told after the event that the offenders were either known to the police/security or that concerned acquaintances or even family had made reports which seem to have been ignored. So a combination of more funding and a redirection of funds away from mass surveillance might have borne some results.

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Anonymous Coward

Censorship good Truth Bad !!!!

As usual, those far-sighted, German-speaking continentals always lead the way:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40097792

https://www.infowars.com/germany-62yo-woman-fined-1350-euros-for-sharing-anti-migrant-joke-on-facebook/

https://news.vice.com/article/german-lawyers-seek-to-criminally-charge-facebooks-zuckerberg-over-hate-speech

The winds of change are now blowing across and inspiring this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/nazi-pug-man-arrested-after-teaching-girlfriends-dog-to-perform/

Armed police, teddy bears and candle-light vigils are clearly not enough. Seems that capturing, categorizing and purging everyone's online thoughts and speech is the only way forward. Also much easier (and possibly more lucrative) than chasing after armed terrorists.

My only questions are: will these laws be applied solely against evil old ladies and Scottish dog-trainers? Or will people advocating the mass murder of civilians be impacted as well?

Think carefully before you answer. And remember that reading the above links may soon put you on a watch list.

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Re: Mein Campf

All together now, and a one, and a two and a one, two three

Springtime for Hitler....

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Silver badge

Re: "Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

"If you're willing to credit her with failures in our security when they happen should you not also credit her with successes too?"

The thing that makes the failures so egregious is that they seem inevitably to involve people known to the police or security services or who have been reported by alarmed acquaintances or family.

But the real problem with her, right from her Home Sec. days, is her concern with the internet and particularly with her obsession of treating everyone who uses it as suspect. This abandoning of the presumption of innocence is a more drastic blow against British values than anything terrorist organisations could manage on their own. It's a major indirect victory for them. And what could she gain by all this? Terrorists are already breaking the law; is providing another law for them to break going to be effective? Those who would be affected by her attacks on the net will be lawful users. This Home Office-sponsored action is something akin to an internet auto-immune disease.

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Re: "Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

(Playing devil's advocate here... )

"82, which doesn't look quite so rosy."

True ... but not as huge a leap as to make it significant compare to other causes

"during her tenure as Home Secretary & as PM many terrorist plots have been successfully disrupted by the security services"

Says who? Do you have a (verifiable) list?

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Re: Book stores.

it's difficult to see how extra 'bobbies on the beat' would make any difference for this sort of crime.

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Re: Book stores. Divide and rule

Politicians have been thumbing that old 'divide and rule' playbook since Spartacus. The logical conclusion of its continued application is an entire population of paranoid sociopaths. Pretty much fait accompli, I reckon.

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Re: "Does the idiot woman realize how bloody stupid she sounds?"

Online, internet, onljne, cyber, encryption,online, did I mention online?

People fear what they don't know or understand, often they will attack or try to destroy what they fear, when in reality, they should embrace their fears and come to know and understand them.

Or we could get rid of Teresa May.

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Anonymous Coward

who's been 'leading' the war against terror?

"inevitably we're told after the event that the offenders were either known to the police/security or that concerned acquaintances or even family had made reports which seem to have been ignored. So a combination of more funding and a redirection of funds away from mass surveillance might have borne some results."

Interesting, isn't it.

When I were a lad, many people's local copper lived at the end of the street, was known to the community, and people asked him for help and kept him in the picture if anything dodgy was going on locally.

How many police have that kind of community relationship today?

At the opposite end of the police hierarchy in recent years we've seen the Association of Chief Police Officers Ltd have a senior officer in charge of anti-terrorism. In one case that role appears to have included running a selection of undercover cops in legitimate peaceful protest organisations (e.g. Mark Kennedy/Stone), undercover operations which led to the arrest and trial of dozens of members of those organisations, and then the trials collapsing when the kennedy/stone came out and threatened to reveal more than he should. And it turns out Kennedy/Stone was far from the only one.

Readers might want to look up who at ACPO Ltd was in charge of those undercover operations. His name has been around a bit more recently in a different context - investigating News International for phone hacking, and declaring them innocent, until someone finally took the job a little bit more seriously.

The same name is also in the frame for unfortunate occurences relating to the police killings of JC de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson, and... well you get the gist.

But enough about Andy Hayman [1], for now.

As well as Hayman, the Met's heads of anti-terrorism have included Cressida Dick, in charge of counter-terrorism in the Met in 2011, and as of earlier this year, in overall charge of the Met. She was also quite close to the shooting of JC de Menezes.

Elsewhere there's the decades of police lies (and evidence tampering) about Hillsborough, and the lies and fake evidence re the Birmingham Six, and so on. Before we even start thinking about cases like Steven Lawerence.

There's plenty more where that comes from but you get the idea.

Might it not be nice if the public could actually trust the police, and if the various Home Secretaries over the years had done something about *that* as well as a clearly ineffective "war on terror"?

[Please take it as read that I condemn violence, terrorism, etc].

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8640523/Andy-Hayman-The-good-the-bad-and-the-downright-thick.html

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