back to article Windows 10: Triumphs and tragedies from Microsoft Build

Microsoft presented its latest Windows 10 strategy to developers at its Build event in Seattle last week. Microsoft states that Windows 10 is now installed on more than 500 million devices, halfway towards the goal of 1 billion by 2018 that it set itself at Build 2015. In July 2016 the company acknowledged that its target was …

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Putty ....

You generally install it. But if you do so on Window 10 then you are compromising the *nix systems that you login to - that telemetry that can log all your key strokes.

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Re: Putty ....

If one is forced to run Win10, there is a potential workaround to the keylogging; set up linux in a VM, and associate a separate USB keyboard directly to the VM. While it's still possible that the USB datastreams could be logged, it seems a bit less likely.

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Re: Putty ....

Surely the telemetry isn't down to logging all your keystrokes. Even Microsoft couldn't get away with something like that....citation, please.

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Re: Putty ....

Cygwin's ssh is better anyway, in my bombastic opinion

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Putty ....

Well documented that windows 10 comes with a Microsoft keylogger installed, purely for diagnostic use only you must understand. They would never be tempted to use that for advertising purposes on all those free installs of Windows 10...

Google for "How to turn off the Windows 10 keylogger enabled by default". That should get you started.

I would also question the 500m number, which is clearly utter horseshite, business's haven't adopted (install numbers stopped overnight when the freebie Win10 datamine edition ended), and the PC is pretty much dead outside the office (and should be dead inside the office given how much of a security liability it is)

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@AC: Re: Putty ....

RE: "Google for "How to turn off the Windows 10 keylogger enabled by default". That should get you started."

I've yet to see proof that this is actually referring to being a key logger. This is the improve typing information. Do you know what information is being sent? Do you know how this is being gathered? Until you can point to something more than "I don't have any actual evidence but go Google" then I call BS on your assertion that this is a key logger. Prove your point or it remains rubbish.

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Re: Putty ....

"install numbers stopped overnight when the freebie Win10 datamine edition ended"

Haven't you seen the "Your computer in too moderm for windows 7, we are going to stop sending you updates that would save you from things like WannaCry just because we can. Update to Win10 already!"

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Re: Putty ....

@DougS, I think this is referring to the Privicy Setting "Send Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future".

I don't know what information it would send but depending on the user's viewpoint, simply seeing that could cause concern. If there are details of what is captured, I would like to know too.

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Re: @AC: Putty ....

What do you think "improve typing information" is?

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Re: Putty ....

Hmm, that's not my experience - all 500 PC's in our offices have been upgraded to Win 10.

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Re: Putty ....

"all 500 PC's in our offices have been upgraded to Win 10"

You are a trendy lot, you!

Not trendy enough for Macs, mind.

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Anonymous Coward

Sorry

Sorry, but until the underlying operating system is actually stable, all of this is wasted. Shouldn't have to wait until a given bug makes it into the news before they start working on a fix.

It seems like they don't give a rat's arse, if something only affects a few million users.

Not referring to anything specific, just commenting on the status quo.

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Re: Sorry

Indeed - they have all these fancy UI ideas when Windows 10 still looks butt-ugly of high DPI 4k displays.

I wish they'd fix the basics before adding new features.

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Re: Sorry

"I wish they'd fix the basics before adding new features."

MS doesn't like doing things well on a detailed level. They still can't do colour management right, for example. In sharp contrast to Apple.

Polishing things to perfection isn't really MS's thing.

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The store is unattractive for developers ...

... because Microsoft take a 30% cut, which only makes sense for Windows software which is not already established in the market.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The store is unattractive for developers ...

Yeah. Copying the Apple "30% cut" store model intended for sub $10 throwaway apps makes zero sense for PC, especially professional, applications. This has been proven to be true since the debut of the Windows 8 store in 2011 but Microsoft continue to flog the same dead horse in UWP clothing.

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Devil

Re: The store is unattractive for developers ...

who needs "the store" when you have your own web site already?

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Re: The store is unattractive for developers ...

>who needs "the store" when you have your own web site already?

People who want to sell to people running Windows S?

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Don't care

I'm becoming more and more disillusined with Windows. I miss Windows 2000. Simple, rock solid, clean. Never missed a beat, no poncy fancy gimmicks or gizmos, a workhorse OS. I'm still on W7 and will damn well stay that was untill I have to run it on a vm to keep it secure off a Linux base OS and behind a virtual firewall appliance. I refuse to have 10 on _my_ hardware.

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Re: Don't care

Is your W7 license transferable? You might want to buy a new W7 license key now to be ready for the future.

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Mixed Reality?

It amazes me that Microsoft cannot see themselves as others see them. It seems their persistent outlook consists of "Missed Reality".

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Re: Don't care

If it's retail or OEM key yes. I found out the hard way that the educational version can be turned of if acquired via you school. Now you might have to use the phone activation.

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Re: Don't care

I fondly remember Win2000 and it's no BS approach. It was a damn good OS. Instead we get bells, whistles, and apps (sometimes).

An operating system should just work. Fancy bells, whistles, dancing bears, etc. aren't needed and for many of us, not wanted. Our applications need a stable platform that will sit quietly in the background and just run the tools.

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Re: Mixed Reality?

Yes, the drive to get us using the "store" and the names "creators" and "Fall" are all indicative of some kind of silo mindset that fails to understand what people outside might want/like/need/think.

The store is, as stated, modelled on devices that sell pocket money "apps" not grown-up programmes. As is the whole Modern/Metro/Universal-whatever-it-is-today interface. The "Creators" and "Fall-----" updates seem named for some kind of fantasy world made in Microsoft's own image: The former because of some, irrelevant to most users, 3D capacity, and the latter because they apparently don't know that this only makes sense to Americans.

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Re: Mixed Reality?

And they also missed that there'll be something wrong with it so it'll inevitably get called the Fail Update.

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Re: Don't care

OEM is not legally transferable to another pc....

Whether you can do it or not is another matter...

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Business users

Most have no choice and would rather have better legacy compatibility than telemetry, ill thought out changes, itunes, lack of classic GUI, windows store etc.

MS still don't get it.

> So... What is a sustainable business model for Microsoft?

Sell businesses stable version of windows, with better reverse compatibility. XP, Server 2003, Office 2003 and SQL7 and Visual Studio before .Net were the high points. Chasing the consumer and One Windows for Phones, Tablets, Workstations and TV has killed the quality, security and experience.

Sell ONE version, not the crazy multiple versions. Make difference between Server and Workstation purely a licence key for any server services. NO Workgroup file/Printer sharing. An absolutely stupid idea released same time as MS OS/2 Server!

At the minute Linux is MUCH superior as File Server, Web server, SQL, Email Server, Cluster. Linux and Libre Office is now a good bit better than Windows Workstation & office unless you locked into Exchange Calendars/Schedules on Outlook and Macros.

Frankly even in 2004 Linux couldn't touch MS Client SW for ease of use and stability, it's better now.

Visual Studio.net and .net is a mess.

Forget the consumer market. It's gone for laptops. Maybe even ditch Xbox. It's just a drain on R&D resources for very little or no income.

Business are the only people locked to Legacy Windows applications and few consumers need a laptop (writing, video editing, photography hobbyists is a small market).

They should split in three:

Windows (ONE product, simply licence keys or on high end a dongle for Laptop, Server, Cluster). NO tablets, unless really a laptop with detachable keyboard and Wacom as well as touch. Main emphasis on WIMP interface, touch is useless on a workstation screen or regular size laptop unless it's a single use scenario (Medical tablet, POS, ATM etc)

Tools. These should work on Windows, Linux and MacOS.

Applications. These should work on Windows, Linux and MacOS (that includes stuff like MS SQL which they have on Linux now). They should NOT also work on set boxes, TVs, Phones, Tablet.

They should open source the file formats and network APIs so iOS and Android developers can do mickey mouse apps / Widgets. I've used "Full featured" Spreadsheets on an Android tablet. It's a garbage experience for real work. A simple app that lets you open file and type some small change is limit to practicality.

GUI

Ribbon was / is absolutely stupid

Aero, excessive eye candy, depreciation Win Forms etc in favour of Direct 3D was stupid.

Excessively flat is stupid

MRU Menu items are stupid. Menus need to be unchanging and have everything.

Tiles are stupid.

Forget phones, consoles, gaming. Concentrate on 100% stable, secure, private and backwardly compatible for business laptops/workstations, or else there is no reason to buy Windows at all.

I bet I could double MS income and stop the griping. Almost everyone now hates the stuff, but has to use it. It really used to be better than Mac or Linux. (I used OS8 and OS9 and OSX is just a more Unix style prettier sideways move).

Canonical / Shuttleworth has seen the light and ditched ABSOLUTELY STUPID Unity.

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Re: Business users

"Linux and Libre Office is now a good bit better than Windows Workstation & office"

What on earth are you smoking? LibreOffice is nowhere near functional parity with Microsoft Office. Not even close.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Business users

Linux as a file server, but for very simple needs, is really outdated. NFSv3 is old, NFSv4 attempts to imitate Windows. And no surprise most Linux server have to use Samba to offer SMB, just like Apple made SMB the default network file system for macOS, not NFS. And still, lots is lacking especially from a management point of view compared to Active Directory + SMB (despite the vulnerabilities of SMBv1).

Nothing under Linux is even close to Exchange capabilities and features. Simple email, OK, workgroup features, no luck... SQL Server goes far beyond MySQL/MariaDB and Postgres capabilites. Not up to Oracle yet, but Oracle is not your average Linux DB. I agree that as a web platform Linux is better.

Visual Studio (.net suffix was abandoned years ago..) is far better than any development solution on Linux, especially those based on vim. Anyway, developing applications for three platforms would have unbearable costs, especially under Linux were very few are willingly to pay, and especially until the desktop gets a unified API and a single decent widget set, not that mess Gnome and KDE are.

You don't know what WinForms is (it was the GUI libray of .NET, not of Windows). Probably you meant GDI, and you obviously don't know the limitations GDI has, and the need of a more perfomant, hw accelerated, 2D API.

If you believe that desktop applications are just a niche market, well you're wrong. Not only laptops, full desktops. With RAID disks and big video cards. Don't believe photographers, for example, even hobbyists, use only laptops with small gamuts screens, lack of redundant storage, low-end video cards.

It's quite clear the last time you used Windows and Office was several years ago... and just small networks. It's better you refresh your knowledge, and, especially, you should avoid to speak about things you obviously never used and don't have a clue about.

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Re: Business users

"LibreOffice is nowhere near functional parity with Microsoft Office"

Sure, but, I still see people hit tab at the start of every line when they want a paragraph indented.

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FAIL

Re: Business users

From the article "Windows is in better shape with businesses than with consumers and that looks set to continue"

My answer: in WHAT universe? But 'looks set to continue' is still accurate.

"LibreOffice is nowhere near functional parity with Microsoft Office. Not even close."

It works exceptionally well for me. What functions is it missing??? I haven't seen anything in Micro-shaft Orifice that I would WANT, particularly their "ribbon bar" and (probably, haven't seen it) new 2D FLUGLINESS. Thanks, I can run Libre on windows systems AND linux/BSD systems, and therefore I standardize on it. And "cloudiness" 365 solutions are HIGHLY overrated...

[might as well just use the 'google doc' editor, which stinks on ice, if you must have cloudy documents, as it costs you NOTHING and works on Linux, BSD, Mac, and *cough* windows]

The ONLY thing that is driving Win-10-nic adoption these days is that YOU! CANNOT! PURCHASE! A! NEW! COMPUTER! WITH! WINDOWS! 7! ON! IT! ANY! MORE!!!

(or maybe you can, and I just missed them?)

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Devil

Re: Business users

"Linux as a file server, but for very simple needs, is really outdated"

clueless. Actually I use FreeBSD, but it's basically the same userland software. It handles my e-mail repo (IMAP), source repository (SVN), and file-based backups and archival storage, as well as internet firewall, internet gateway (PPPoE for a DSL connection), IPv6, DNS server (for a domain), web server, and stores it all using ZFS [the most reliable file system that I'm aware of]. And it does all of that on an older Intel Core Duo running at 1.6Ghz with only 4G of RAM, and I don't have even a REMOTE case of performance issues with it. Good luck getting THAT to work with a windows server, ha ha ha ha ha! And it has Samba running on it for windows shares [all read-only except for a couple - when I want to write to it I use rsync via Cygwin, which is a lot better/safer - in case of a 'wannacry' problem that decides to go after network shares]. And it doesn't expose ports 135-139 nor 443 (by default) to the intarwebs (unlike a windows server).

So, _THAT_ is "outdated"? Hah, I laugh in your general direction!

"Visual Studio is far better than any development solution on Linux, especially those based on vim"

vim? ha ha ha where have YOU been! I prefer using pluma/gedit to VIsual Studio anyway, since visual studio GETS! IN! MY! WAY! most of the time. The last decent MS developer studio was VS98. After that it got all "Visual BASIC" on us, and you have to mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie and move your hand off of the keyboard all the time, especially with the dialog box editor. "property" drop downs, what a freaking joke! I liked the old class wizard dialog-based interface because I had the hot keys memorized and could fill a dialog box with accurately aligned controls in minutes, without wearing my right hand out doing mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie. And that mousie-clickie process SLOWS! ME! DOWN!!

FYI in case you hadn't seen, there are also a couple of other IDEs out there, some written in Java (like Arduino, Eclipse). Eclipse is very popular with Java programmers. It's quite good, actually. It lacks some of the C++ support I'd like to see, but hey, you can't have everything.

Then of course there's Qt, a commercial toolkit. I haven't used it but I hear good things.

"Anyway, developing applications for three platforms would have unbearable costs"

No, it doesn't. wxWidgets. Qt. GTK. All 3 of those are cross-platform toolkits. code to one of them, and it's "good to go".

"especially under Linux w[h]ere very few are willingly to pay, and especially until the desktop gets a unified API" (ha ha ha not a chance) "and a single decent widget set, not that mess Gnome and KDE are."

Gnome and KDE might be 'a mess'. but 'Mate' and 'Cinnamon' are pretty good.

As for 'a single decent widget set', I like having CHOICE. And I'm working on my own... [with an IDE to wrap around it].

So yeah, much of what you said here is the same FUD as always. Since I've been using BSD as my daily OS since around 2004, and doing primarily non-windows development since 2005, I've seen Windows in decline and it's turned ugly, and mean.

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Re: Business users

"What on earth are you smoking? LibreOffice is nowhere near functional parity with Microsoft Office. Not even close."

Exactly. My other half is a freelance office administrator / organiser / etc. I let her have a try at LibreOffice to see what she thought as she's a bit miffed that Office costs. An afternoon with it and her whole opinion is now "Office costs money but compared to that it's great value". She actually likes the ribbon as the things she needs are there all the time and clear and easy. I think if all of the IT "experts" on here actually spent more time talking to the people whose day to day jobs involve using office type productivity software, beyond typing a few paragraphs in a word processor, would realise that Office sells well because there simply isn't anything better and the users know that.

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Re: Business users

In the style of BBob:

WHAT the HELL does Win-10-nic MEAN? YOU KEEP SAYING IT!!!! AND! WE! DONT! KNOW!!!!

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Re: Business users

Hi,

@ Timmy B.

It is an in joke. You have to be in the group to know what it means.

Regards,

Shadmeister.

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Re: Business users

"It is an in joke. You have to be in the group to know what it means."

In jokes limited to a group are not the best approach to wider communication although I'm not sure wider communication is Bob's intent.

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Re: Business users

And yet it can do the same job, easier, and without imposing the Microsoft overhead on you.

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Re: Business users

"WHAT the HELL does Win-10-nic MEAN?"

Probably a childish attempt to use Google as Your Personal Comment History Search Engine.

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Re: Business users

@Shadmeister

Well I'm happy - not sure I' want to be in a club that would have Bob as a member.... I'm still wondering what on earth it means. These things get under my skin.

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Re: Business users

Hi,

@ Timmy B,

If i were in the club i would tell you. (not the UK meaning of being in the club)

The only meaning i know for nic is network interface card.

Regards,

Shadmeister.

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Facepalm

Yeah - they said that about Windows Phone too

Even proudly ponced about holding a mock funeral for the iPhone.

How'd that work out then?

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How many people use 'Classic Shell'?

First thing I install on any windows machine post W7 and then I can talk clients through problems over the phone. Makes W10 at last usable again :)

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OK, I give

What negative meaning would "Creators Update" have in Australia?

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Pint

Re: OK, I give

It's not the word "Creators" that has the Aussies riled, but the assumption that the third season of the year is "Fall":

The "Creators" concept is rather tangential both to the new features and to Windows users in general. As for Fall [emphasis mine], I remarked to another journalist at Build that the name was US-centric. "Imagine how it goes down in Australia," he replied.

Imagery of falling leaves and frosty mornings probably won't resonate with those Down Under, who will at that time of the year be more concerned with throwing shrimps on the barbie, adding Vegemite to tinnies, tying corks to their hats, watching out for drop-bears, playing knifey-spoony, tying kangaroos down, wrestling crocodiles, and other traditional local pursuits that I am 100% sure are accurate and not based on clichéd stereotypes.

The icon is a pint of Castlemaine XXXX, which as everyone knows is the only beer available down there.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: OK, I give

America doesn't care about what happens in the rest of the world if it doesn't affect America. Seventeen million Australians are of no consequence or four million Kiwis or anybody else. As long as it makes sense for USA it doesn't matter to them.

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Re: OK, I give

You mean MICROSOFT doesn't care. and "As long as it makes sense for MICROSOFT it doesn't matter".

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"Focusing"

Maybe they should be "focusing" on getting an operating system that is designed to work on PCs rather than phones.

They need to get a GUI that is simple - W2k or XP - and not something that causes eye strain by being all white. They also need to stop using the people they have foisted this abomination on to as beta testers and drop all the telemetry and spying.

The OS needs to be able to do what people and business want in a clear, easy and repeatable way.

I could go on but it is just too depressing. Thankfully I don't use windows.

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Megaphone

Re: "Focusing"

"They need to get a GUI that is simple - W2k or XP - and not something that causes eye strain by being all white"

yeah, focusing MY EYES on "that interface" causes me eye strain.

Micro-shaft forgot about USABILITY and ACCESSIBILITY when they took the customizations out. I had always created a really READABLE interface that minimized eye strain.

BLUE LIGHT (and that includes bright white backgrounds) is *VERY* *HARD* on the eyes. It can (and probably will) result in PREMATURE MACULAR DEGENERATION, due to the depletion of the orange pigment in the macula [I did some work for an Optometrist a while back, on a machine that analyzes this]. A work environment with bright white lights gives you eye strain BECAUSE of this. 'Yellowing' the screen slightly so that it's still visible cuts WAY down on the eye strain. but I don't think that's in Micro-shaft's "pre-defined color set" last I looked. Basically you want lower temperature colors, like an incandescent bulb. It's more natural, like the Sun. And high contrast based on relative 'Y' brightness, and not chroma balance, helps TREMENDOUSLY [I sometimes want to shoot Linux devs who pre-assign colors to 'ls' and 'grep' because of this... I always 'unalias' those because they're FRICKING UNREADABLE with those color choices].

Anyway, THAT way of pre-assigning our color schemes (like Win-10-nic does) reflects the "INEXPERIENCED YOUTH" aspect of the development. People who must stare at a screen all day and are over 40 will recognize the STUPIDITY of that. Arrogant millenials want "to do it OUR way now, because we CAN, because it's OUR TURN, NEW! SHINY!". And so we have THAT abomination known as "Windows 10".

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Re: "Focusing"

Bob,

If you're against things that cause eye strain, pleas give the caps & exclamation marks a rest. Just make the effort to type normally like everyone else.

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I am waiting....

I am waiting for Windows 10 Legacy Edition, which should look, feel and work just like Windows 7. (But I'm not holding my breath.)

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