back to article Windows 10 S forces Bing, Edge on your kids. If you don't like it, get Win10 Pro – Microsoft

After Tuesday's big launch of Windows 10 S, it emerged the software will force people to use Edge and Bing. How can that be? The supposedly streamlined operating system aimed at kids and their teachers will only run apps from Microsoft's official Windows 10 S software store. Right now, there are no third-party browsers …

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  1. Sampler

    Meh, I give it a few months

    Before they either flip themselves or someone screams monopoly exploitation..

    ..not to say workarounds won't be active long before then (I'm guessing a simple regedit flag adjustment)

    1. Nolveys Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Meh, I give it a few months

      Before they either flip themselves or someone screams monopoly exploitation..

      Monopoly exploitation stopped being a bad thing at the start of the Dubya administration. Today it is considered part of "making America great again".

      1. big_D Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Meh, I give it a few months

        Monopoly? Good, then can we talk about not being able to install Firefox on my Chromebook?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Childcatcher

          Re: Meh, I give it a few months

          >Monopoly? Good, then can we talk about not being able to install Firefox on my Chromebook?

          You can install Linux on a chromebook albeit not straightforward, it will be interesting to see if you can on these W10$ machines or if they use the good old bullshit dodge of "all in the name of security and think of the children"

        2. hplasm Silver badge
          Windows

          Re: Meh, I give it a few months

          "Good, then can we talk about not being able to install Firefox on my Chromebook?"

          Can't find out how to do it on Bing? Oh dear.

        3. Known Hero

          Re: Meh, I give it a few months

          I love the way people scream monopoly over Microsoft then go all quiet when you mention goggle...

          *whiney voice b.. b... b.. but I use google services and don't want to risk not having it.

          Either way, have an upvote and a comment agreeing with you. Personally I couldn't care less if google went down overnight, I would just use another email address and deal with slower traffic for a while, oh wait faster traffic as 90% of advertising would stop overnight.

          1. hplasm Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: Meh, I give it a few months

            goggle?

            WinSpellChkr borked again?

          2. Alan Edwards

            Re: Meh, I give it a few months

            "I love the way people scream monopoly over Microsoft then go all quiet when you mention goggle..."

            The difference with ChromeOS is that they didn't take an existing OS and nobble it so you can't run Firefox or change the search engine, and there isn't a magic "pay $50 to turn it back on again" switch.

            If Google wanted to screw you over with ChromeOS they could, they have full control over the OS. Lock the search engine down, and only pre-approved Chrome extensions allowed, so no AdBlock or uBlock.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              "The difference with ChromeOS is that they didn't take an existing OS"

              You mean they didn't take the existing Linux and didn't slapped Chrome as its UI?

              Do you really believe ChromeOS was written from scratch?

              Note also MS isn't blocking another browser install (yet - it would put it straight into antitrust targeting aim) - it's trying to avoid to set them as the default one so people will be force to use it most of the time. Can you fully replace Chrome on ChromeOS?

              1. druck

                Re: "The difference with ChromeOS is that they didn't take an existing OS"

                No ChromeOS wasn't written from scratch, but it's also not leaching off the Linux name.

                1. 1Rafayal

                  Re: "The difference with ChromeOS is that they didn't take an existing OS"

                  ChromeOS is a Linux.

                  It uses the Linux kernel

              2. alpha_juniper

                Re: "The difference with ChromeOS is that they didn't take an existing OS"

                @Anonymous Coward (2 Months ago) "Note also MS isn't blocking another browser install "

                Yes, in fact, Microsoft is actively blocking other browsers from being submitted to the Windows Store. You will NEVER see Chrome, FireFox, Vivaldi or any other third party in the Windows Store. The terms of the Windows Store basically third party browsers from being brought to the store.

                The only thing someone can do is create a wrapper for the Edge browser (EdgeHTML) so that you could set a different default search engine (but still not a default browser).

                A profound difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple has never pulled that kind of stunt on Mac OS X/macOS with the App Store. You can install whatever (default) browser you want on macOS and set whatever (default) search engine.

            2. big_D Silver badge

              Re: Meh, I give it a few months

              @Alan Edwards it isn't ChromeOS, it is Chrome, in general, Android (>85% market share), search (in Europe over 90% market share) and services "pushed" on users through search results and failure to adhere to data protection rules.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Meh, I give it a few months

        One of the problems with Chromebooks, at least in Europe, is that they are more expensive than an equivalent PC with either Linux or Windows pre-installed.

        Heck, the Samsung with ARM chip that came out a couple of years back was available for $599 in Germany. No wonder that Chromebooks have hardly made a dent in the market.

        1. mike360

          Re: Meh, I give it a few months

          No wonder that Chromebooks have hardly made a dent in the market >> well maybe in Europe but in the US they're outselling Mac's 2-1. They're actually one of the most if not the most secure end device on the market, being that you as a user cannot install software on it if running native ChromeOS. They also have the TPM chip which checks a hash of the OS to see if anything has been tampered with. Very smart.

          1. 1Rafayal

            Re: Meh, I give it a few months

            Many, many laptops and desktops have a TPM installed.

            It's not a quirk for ChromeBooks

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Meh, I give it a few months

            They're actually one of the most if not the most secure end device on the market, being that you as a user cannot install software on it if running native ChromeOS

            .. made by Google. I trust Google even less than Microsoft as they directly benefit financially from breaching privacy, so no thanks.

    3. LDS Silver badge

      Re: Meh, I give it a few months

      How that fits the EU ruling about IE in Windows? Or because they renamed it to Edge they believe it now doesn't apply?

      It looks to me Nadella is trying to check how far it can go in breaking the rules. Maybe as soon as EU asks MS some hundred millions of dollars for breaking them, he will step back.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Meh, I give it a few months

        > How that fits the EU ruling about IE in Windows? Or because they renamed it to Edge they believe it now doesn't apply?

        MS could just say that Windows S doesn't have a dominant market position - which is true. It was only Windows' dominance at the time that opened them up to the EU ruling about IE. You can't be accused of abusing a monopoly if you don't actually have one.

        1. LDS Silver badge

          "Windows S doesn't have a dominant market position"

          That depends on what market the antitrust authority considers - MS may attempt to include phones and tablets into it, but the EU may not accept it - otherwise Google could attempt to say it has no dominant position in smartphones because MS still dominates the desktop market.

          StatCounter, for example. reports Windows at 84.22%, macOS 11.63%, Linux 1.67%, ChromeOS 0,76% for April 2017. Hardly to say it doesn't hold a dominant position.

          I'm sure MS it's trying to probe how far it can go with this, but it can find itself to be probed...

          1. Motty
            Pirate

            Re: "Windows S doesn't have a dominant market position"

            They'll run into the European Commission anti-trust rules which will fine them a huge sum of money, as this is not the first time they have tried this (bundled browser with no offer of an alternative).

            http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-196_en.htm

          2. wayward4now
            Linux

            Re: "Windows S doesn't have a dominant market position"

            "I'm sure MS it's trying to probe how far it can go with this, but it can find itself to be probed..."

            I love it when Windows and probed are used in the same sentence!!

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Meh, I give it a few months

          "MS could just say that Windows S doesn't have a dominant market position"

          But planning on being able to argue that means they'd be planning to fail.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Meh, I give it a few months

        "How that fits the EU ruling about IE in Windows? Or because they renamed it to Edge they believe it now doesn't apply?"

        IIRC, the browser choice ruling has expired. But it has set a precedent in case of future cases.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Meh, I give it a few months - less than that

      Meh, I give it a few months before they either flip themselves or someone screams monopoly exploitation..

      I suspect TTF (Time To Flip) will be measured in weeks, rather than months, for a very simple reason: we are talking about Microsoft, and thus pretty shoddy code.

      I reckon it will take mere days, at best weeks before someone finds a new (or, more accurately, "yet another") potentially devastating security defect in Edge (or Win 10) that will force them to open things up of face the usual "think of the children" chants. Microsoft will obviously not be able to respond with "if you care so much about your children, why did you force them to use Windows in the first place" like we can, so while they (are pretending to) fix things they will open things up to take the heat off their marketing team and those poor grassroots forum posters that have to downvote all negative Microsoft comments :).

      Weeks, not months.

      1. Sandtitz Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Meh, I give it a few months - less than that @Coward

        "I reckon it will take mere days, at best weeks before someone finds a new (or, more accurately, "yet another") potentially devastating security defect in Edge"

        You're right. We'll never see an end to defects in MS software.

        Except Chrome and Firefox have had even more defects judging by the cvedetails website, so your rant is FUD and it's no wonder you're posting anonymously.

      2. DropBear Silver badge

        Re: Meh, I give it a few months - less than that

        "Weeks, not months."

        ...reminds me a a certain space sim. Didn't work out to well there though.

    5. Dave 15 Silver badge

      Re: Meh, I give it a few months

      Well, I give it less. I can see the situation... I walk into a computer shop, I can have a crippled windows 10 without the flexibility I want, I won't buy it. Eventually the shop will end up offering you a linux distro on the box because it is not making any sales. From there to your msft shares being less valuable than your toilet paper about an hour.

    6. just_me

      Re: Meh, I give it a few months

      It may be sooner. I think there was some sort of court order to the effect that Microsoft was not allowed to block or cause the functionality of software from other vendors to be reduced on the windows platform. It was out of a lawsuit on web browsers ironically - Netscape v Microsoft.

  2. Martijn Otto

    Or just use anything but Windows

    Problem solved.

    1. oiseau
      Thumb Down

      Re: Or just use anything but Windows

      Unbelievable ...

      That someone would (at this stage in time and after all these years of MS BS) downvote your post.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Or just use anything but Windows

        To many, an OS is just that thing they use to load up the applications they use. If that application is only available on Windows, then switching to Linux doesn't solve anything - regardless of what one thinks of MS.

        People who support Linux would do better to acknowledge that straightforward fact than to ignore it. WINE is sometimes suitable, and some applications are suited to running off the cloud through a browser (OS agnostic). Interesting times.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows 7

    ,the last truely "owned by the purchaser"* home OS will be the last OS from MS i use.

    I really dont relish using linux as i know windows inside and out and the prospect of learning another OS with eleventy million varieties doesn't appeal but i refuse to dance to Microsoft's drum...

    And what a discordent drum it is!

    You listening MS? No of course you're not. You stopped listening to your user base 8 years ago.

    *I know you dont own it per-se BUT i can turn off all the snooping, am not tied to that fucking APP(auling) store mentality and have a choice of browser and search engines.

    1. frank ly Silver badge

      Re: Windows 7

      "... eleventy million varieties ..."

      It's a bit like coffee. The basics are the same and you can make it as complicated and fancy as you want, or not.

      1. VinceH Silver badge

        Re: Windows 7

        "The basics are the same and you can make it as complicated and fancy as you want, or not."

        Having been using one of the eleventy million varieties on my desktop PC since late last year, the only way to avoid making its use complicated seems to be to not try to do anything with it beyond use existing software, and avoid any peripherals that might need drivers.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Windows 7

          "Having been using one of the eleventy million varieties on my desktop PC since late last year, the only way to avoid making its use complicated seems to be to not try to do anything with it beyond use existing software, and avoid any peripherals that might need drivers."

          As someone who switched to FreeBSD back in the days when 4.3 was the Release version, and has used a number of Linux version too, you are spot on. Anything which needs a non-included driver can be a nightmare to get going, if at all. "Common" devices, such as TV cards, web cams, scanners and even some printers are pretty much windows only and your average user is not going to consider that until after purchase.

          In some case, even "supported" hardware sometimes still requires hunting down esoteric files and manually copying them to special places. This is not specifically the fault of Linux in the same way that MS don't provide all the drivers for devices, but it is a stumbling block for average users.

      2. John Sanders
        Linux

        Linux "... eleventy million varieties ..."

        Sorry to be pedantic.

        There is only one "Linux", the kernel, what you complain about is that there are too many Linux distributions.

        Advise to newcomers overwhelmed by the sheer variety.

        There are three main families you care about as a beginner:

        RedHat/CentOS

        Debian/Ubuntu

        Suse

        My advice is to stick to Ubuntu or CentOS until you're familiar with how they work, once you understand the basics you can move easily from distro to distro.

        My personal recomendation is to use Ubuntu MATE as your fist Linux, specially if you mistakenly think that Linux has to be Windows-like.

        I won't lie, it takes effort, but trust me there is no looking back.

    2. cynic56

      Re: Windows 7

      At the time of reply you have 15 upvotes and 4 downvotes for saying you won't buy another Windows OS if you have no control over it.

      I'm 100% with you on this. Others will take a different stance but I'm mystified as to why they would feel strongly enough to downvote.

      Perhaps we have delicate flowers who object to the F word.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Windows 7

        When everything is turned off in Windows 10, it doesn't leak any more information back to Microsoft than Windows 7 does.

        Windows 10 offers a lot more services, but for those, you need to allow more and more data to be passed back to MS.

        I am assuming that cornz1 doesn't use an Android od iOS smartphone, if he is worried about data slurping.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Windows 7

          Oh god, my sides.......

          "When everything is turned off in Windows 10, it doesn't leak any more information back to Microsoft than Windows 7 does".

          Oh god, there goes another rib....

          You naïve creature.

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Megaphone

          Re: Windows 7

          "When everything is turned off in Windows 10, it doesn't leak any more information back to Microsoft than Windows 7 does."

          only if you install ALL of the updates...

          And on top of that, Win-10-nic is 2D FLATSO FLUGLY, has "the METRO" SETTINGS intermixed with *EVERYTHING* that control panel USED TO manage well, and "all that cruft" etc. etc. etc. so that even with Classic Shell, it's STILL lipstick on a boar, and NOT on "the oinky end".

          Windows 7 IS "the last Windows". What happened after Sinofsky is basically something else...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Windows 7

            Please can you explain what "Win-10-nic" is supposed to mean?

        3. Ken Hagan Gold badge

          Re: Windows 7

          "When everything is turned off in Windows 10, it doesn't leak any more information back to Microsoft than Windows 7 does."

          Only because they've back-ported all the telemetry.

      2. Zakhar

        Re: Windows 7

        Here is why the downvotes:

        - You are never "in control" of a closed source O.S.

        - As someone already replied, there are not X million different linux, just a common base with as many flavours you like. That is called "customisation". I'm not saying you MUST adopt an alternate O.S., but it's just being blatantly lazy not even giving it a try as is apparently the case.

        - M$ didn't stop to listen to its customers 8 year ago, they stop in fact 15 years ago!

        1. DropBear Silver badge

          Re: Windows 7

          I don't normally do advocating for the Devil - only when stuff rubs me the wrong way.

          - You are also never "in control" of what kind of engine hums away in the bowels of a ship you aren't willing to rebuild yourself. Historically, that bothered an astonishingly low number of captains as long as they were able to steer said ship whichever way they wanted to go.

          - So whenever I have an issue with something that almost (but not quite) works - which is basically 24/7 until I just give up - I can just copy-paste the rare and preciousssss magic incantations offered as solution by a fellow sufferer for any other Linux? No...? Sorry, but "X million different Linux" it is then.

          - Is this a "have you stopped beating your wife" trick question...? When have they _ever_ listened to anybody over the sound of all that "kerching"?!?

          1. Kiwi
            Linux

            Re: Windows 7

            You are also never "in control" of what kind of engine hums away in the bowels of a ship you aren't willing to rebuild yourself.

            True, the captain seldom had a say in what engine was installed. However, the captain could learn and even touch any and every part of that engine should he wish to do so. Indeed most captains had a very good working knowledge of how their engines worked. And they had people in their crew who could repair much of the engine and associated equipment while at sea, sometimes even while the engine was running (eg on some Fiat engines it was possible for a piston to be removed and serviced at sea while the ship ran on the remaining pistons, and under current maritime laws ships must have at least 2 engines and should one fail it can be serviced while the ship sails on the other).

            Engines are open source I'm afraid.

            I can just copy-paste the rare and preciousssss magic incantations offered as solution by a fellow sufferer for any other Linux? No...?

            Actually, often "yes". More often than not. I use Mint but have often used solutions for Ubuntu or Debian. And in a number of cases I've found the answers on a Redhat or related tutorial, because while the system is based on Debian the software I run often has the same configuration despite the different package manager. So someone who uses say Courier Imap under Redhat can tell me how to fix it under Debian if I manage to break something (a few paths may be different but it's not like that's difficult to work out, and you can chose to use different paths unlike Windows which probably still throws a hissy fit if you try to move your personal documents off C:...)

      3. Bernardo Sviso

        Re: Re: Windows 7

        The writing was on the wall back in Win ME / Win XP days. I felt like I was not so much a customer, as a sheep for the shearing -- if not a crook or an enemy. I was savvy enough to get around most of the arbitrary obstacles, but didn't agree that the hassle was justifiable or necessary.

        And I was a managing a book-store, not an IT guy. And I could see where things were going. So I did some reading, and managed to install Linux (Debian, even -- it's amazing what one can do if one is prepared to read the directions). By 2002 I wasn't using Windows for anything except for the final draft of my resume (where employers insisted on Word) and TurboTax.

        There was the odd technical hassle... which was mostly, the extra effort involved in making sure that the hardware wasn't "Windows only" -- and at least it wasn't a case of the customer being actively for profit and/or control. It was a fair trade -- and actually less work, than maintaining a Windows-based working environment environment. Since I'm not a big gamer, I simply didn't "need" Windows (and the gaming situation has vastly improved).

        Linux is a lot easier to get into now, too.

        I can only assume that actual IT techies who couldn't see the inevitable were just in love (despite protestations to the contrary) with Microsoft, or just too close to the technology to see the big picture. Actually, I'm amazed at how many techies *still* can't see the obvious -- I guess it must be a "not seeing the forest for the trees" kind of thing.

    3. BobChip
      Happy

      Re: Windows 7

      Yet another very good reason to be glad that I abandoned Windows (and all things MS) when Vista came along. While I do agree that Win 7 was the last decent (controllable / properly configurable) Windows version, I don't regret for one moment making the switch. The Linux update process has been an absolute revelation - all OSs should work as well as this. I'm a very happy green penguin now.

  4. sorry, what?
    Unhappy

    Won't someone think of the children?!

    New in Windows 10, regardless of flavour, is a crippled and brain dead Family Safety offering.

    It used to be that you could manage internet access (effectively implementing a firewall on a per child basis), but now you can only do that with Edge and (perhaps, I can't remember) IE. The reason? Something about it being too hard to keep up with third party changes in the browsers.

    I guess M$ can say that Windows 10 S is safer for kids, but honestly, I think they could have easily provided the "firewall" functionality at a lower level, e.g. just above the NIC/wifi driver level. Then it would work for all.

    I suspect it is more about all that data slurping opportunity loss. "Of course we don't knowingly capture data from children" they say. Pull the other one.

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