back to article Lloyds to outsource 2,000 staff in IBM deal

Lloyds Banking Group is to offshore nearly 2,000 IT jobs as part of its shift to IBM, according to the Lloyds Trade Union. In a recent presentation, Morteza Mahjour, the group's Chief Information Officer, confirmed that Lloyds will outsource large parts of its IT estate to IBM in a deal worth £1.3bn over seven years, the union …

Thanks for the heads up

I'll start the process of moving my savings account away from Lloyds shortly.

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Re: Thanks for the heads up

Fortunately I started the process of moving my savings account away from any banking provider some time ago and on current projections it will probably be gone before Christmas. That said I will then, technically speaking, be skint. And my employer will own just a little bit more of my soul.

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Re: Thanks for the heads up

"I'll start the process of moving my savings account away from Lloyds shortly."

Why did you wait till now?

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Mushroom

Re: Thanks for the heads up

"I'll start the process of moving my savings account away from Lloyds shortly."

If it hasn't been *cough* moved to India already...

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Re: Thanks for the heads up

Oh brilliant!! I must open an account with them and wait for things to go titsup a la Ulster Bank. A lot of people got a lot of free money from that fuckup.

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Re: Thanks for the heads up

On my permanent never use list with Wells Fargo is Lloyds. Doubtful it will ever be notice by them.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Thanks for the heads up

Well I just started looking at moving to a new credit card, which is currently at Lloyds, and ended up moving my gas and electricity this afternoon, to a small UK-based company.

I will move the card though, and ensure I don't bank at Lloyds. I'm ex-IBM, and know how bad they are at the outsourcing nonsense. I'm not 100% against outsourcing; more like 85%. There are benefits, but in general the only thing that matters is short-term gain and making bonus payments to people who don't deserve them.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Thanks for the heads up

Yes, and this is a heads up to employees. They are telling employees that they will be offshoring the work over the next four years. In other words, start looking for a new job now. This is going to be a disaster after hundreds of employees start voluntarily leaving without anyone who understands the work.

I cannot believe companies are still doing these outsourcing deals. 1) They are almost always a mess. 2) Even when they are not a complete trainwreck, you turn your IT operations into a rigid, inflexible bureaucracy. Will IBM have an interest in automating processes and moving workload to public cloud... moving IT operations to the 21st century? Of course not. They are going to try to pile as many offshore people on the contract as they can possibly justify. More people is more revenue and profit for IBM. Lloyd's wants to streamline but they are hiring a vendor with a financial incentive to avoid streamlining anything. IT outsourcing is outdated.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Thanks for the heads up

"I'm not 100% against outsourcing; more like 85%."

Yes, and it is just a 1990s solution to a 2017 problem. The way to reduce costs while increasing speed and agility is DevOps automation and public cloud from a hyper scaler like AWS or Google. IT offshore outsourcing basically ensures that your current, likely inefficient, IT Ops processes will continue despite innovation in IT Ops and, even if it works, will make IT a rigid bureaucracy incapable of doing anything quickly or changing (not in the 7 year contract SLAs). It is just amazingly outdated at this point in time.... Like outsourcing your stable and husbandry operations to a third party for the next 7 years when there are these new automobiles driving down the road.

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Oops

Well, we know their security is good after the Aussie Census

Any Lloyds bods reading - leave now, you won't regret it - they will let you rot while you do a transfer of knowledge to the offshore team and then you will get made redundant with the statutory minimum.

Yes - Tuped over a little while ago. I left and am far happier than any of my colleagues who hung on and then got made redundant or left.

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Anonymous Coward

A spokeswoman from Lloyds said: "As we have said to our ex-colleagues..."

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Anonymous Coward

In, out, shake it all about...

There are staff in LBG who went through TUPE to IBM previously under Bank of Scotland/HBOS and subsequent TUPE back into HBOS who will now be going back the other way again...

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Anonymous Coward

Get out. Now

You really don't want to work for this shithole. If you need any evidence, just look back at the many ElReg posts showing the continual redundancies.

And of course, IBM now has the policy of statutory minimum payout for redundancies (voluntary or involuntary).

Get out. Now.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Get out. Now

Waaaay ahead of you.

Now working an easier, better job for twice the pay in a Caribbean country with no income tax!

Even 2-4 years ago when I was there they were offshoring as much IT as possible, whilst having a UK hiring freeze meaning the majority of helpdesk staff were contractors with no job security.

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Anonymous Coward

The beginning of the end for Lloyds

Could Lloyd's have laid the foundation for disaster any better than this?

When financial institutions cede control of their unique value, data, and put it in the hands of people who don't understand this unique value or how to leverage it, they are doomed.

Good luck Lloyds.

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Re: The beginning of the end for Lloyds

"put it in the hands of people who don't understand"

History says that it hasn't been in the hands of people who understand for quite a long time.

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Re: The beginning of the end for Lloyds

Not quite true. Some of them know, but just don't care.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The beginning of the end for Lloyds

If you look at most of the FinTech startups, they are driving value from data. What they lack is scale and client base which isn't the problem for Lloyds. Where it makes sense for a startup to outsource their IT, it makes almost no sense for established banks to outsource.

My guess is that some half-witted consultant told them to get out of IT without understanding how data management works. So instead of the bank owning and understanding their own data, they are at the mercy of IBM and their tools.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The beginning of the end for Lloyds

"So instead of the bank owning and understanding their own data, they are at the mercy of IBM and their tools."

But...but...Watson!

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Anonymous Coward

Is Offshoring that profitable now

given the current exchange rates?

Or do IBM think that the $/£ will go back to $1.50/£1.00 soon?

As an aside, I had an email from LBG asking for my opinion on their service.

It was titled

"We'd like your honest opinion [redacted]"

Then it went on to say,

"At Lloyds Bank, our aim is to create a better bank for our customers."

How nice of you.

Stop the offshoring then! That won't end well. Ask IBM how it went when the got the same deal from JPMC 10+ years ago...

Anyways, I'm off away from LBG ASAP.

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@AC ... Re: Is Offshoring that profitable now

Unfortunately it is.

Remember IBM will outsource Lloyds and within 4 years, the jobs will all be offshored to India or some other cheap resoruce nation where its not only the exchange rate, but also employees will be paid salary in local currencies.

So IBM will make coin off the deal. Also they'll downsize the staffing requirements too.

Watch Lloyds sue IBM in 5-6 years when IBM screws this up. Of course those doing the deal will have long since left the building laughing all they way to the bank.

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Ah, the race to the bottom....

Give 'axe project' jazzy name. Cut costs, de-skill, worsen conditions, give crappy redundancy settlements, send work offshore, provide worse service, lose customers, give executives who complete this great endeavour, large bonuses, make tiny number of people at the top, obscenely rich. Make lots of people poorer and more miserable. Progress! Welcome to Century 21.

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Devil

Re: Ah, the race to the bottom....

Hey, Century 21 is where a lot of these laid-off employees will end up! Get your real estate license in just 5 weeks!!

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Flame

Is this the same IBM that....

....shed thousands of jobs and is currently is forcing people to move hundreds, if not thousands of miles otherwise they have to "quit"

Yes, yes it is.

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After an initial "town hall" meeting where an over-enthusiastic but plausible IBM puppet (sorry - first or second-line manager) extols the few virtues of becoming a new "IBM'er", the Lloyds IT crew will return to their respective day roles and gasp a collective sigh of relief as nothing seemingly changes and rumours of their demise appear unfounded.  Then a few key Lloyds managers (usually senior) will leave under mysterious circumstances or go on garden leave after clashing with their IBM "transition buddy" counterparts.  Some of the best technical talents ebb away of their own accord leaving a nervous, diminishing bunch of aspiring, IBM wannabees who spend most of their day hunting for jobs in the IBM "Watson" division or any role who's title incorporates the word "cognitive". If they avoid the numerous [quarterly] "resource actions" that one can now set one's watch against, they'll more than likely end up cross-training Sanjay from Bangalore who'll take-over their role after a few months. If they're kicked-out, then they can at least look forward to a generous statutory minimum redundancy package.

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"After an initial "town hall" meeting where an over-enthusiastic but plausible IBM puppet (sorry - first or second-line manager) extols the few virtues of becoming a new "IBM'er""

I remember mine well. The chap turned up and told us what a wonderful company they were to work for, and one of the take aways was the amount of training we were to get, two weeks per year (not all classroom, he said),.... so, in reality, I got one week of actual training with QA, because during a 'skills rebalancing exercise (Project Quantum) a pot of money was made available for retraining, so I blagged a course, then several years later, I blagged my way onto a VMware course, as the places had been booked and paid for, were non-refundable, and someone couldn't go, so I stepped in. Two weeks, in over 14 years. Oh, then there was one of the PBC fads where we had to do 40 hours training that year,... I was involved in the adoption of BigFix / IEM and apparently the conf calls counted, so that wasn't training, so much as creative accounting.

So, people of Lloyds, heed Pacman and myself, ... if there is a VR program now, and it's more than stat min, take it. Those two years of TUPE will go quickly, then your job will disappear.

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Anonymous Coward

Good Luck

I started my career in Halifax and survived a number of mergers and acquisitions before moving on. I hope everyone lands on their feet.

I notice that the z-Series estate is conspicuous by its absence.... another jammy escape for the sysprogs?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good Luck

Glad I took VR last December .

Still feel bad for the Boys that stayed though .

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Anonymous Coward

IBM

Incompetant pricks. Leave now.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: IBM

"Incompetant pricks. Leave now."

Incompetent Big Members?

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Anonymous Coward

Helping Britain Prosper 2017 ?

Strangely enough i don't see any mention of this major news on the Lloyds Corporate Website (www.lloydsbankinggroup.com).

Maybe not so strange given most of the site is a detailed rundown of how successfull the Lloyds "Helping Britain Prosper Plan 2017" is going.

Pretty hard to see where sending 2000 UK Lloyds IT jobs Offshore fits in to this Helping Britain Prosper Plan (as they say "we know from long experience that when Britain prospers we do too" )...look forward to hearing the Lloyds Corporate Spin on this soon though...they are world class at that at least !

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Anonymous Coward

Which Bank has IT onshore

Anybody know which bank has all their IT onshore and doesn't outsource to India. I'm looking for a bank to move to?

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Makes no difference who you bank with, they are all the same, so are most other companies to be honest, the worker is just a number and when they are not required they are told to get lost.

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Lloyd's prodding

Sounds like Lloyd's needs to bend over for a good examination. Outsourcing like this tends to indicated executive malfeasance.

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Don't these management types read the newspapers?

I am thinking of the debacles of Queensland Health payroll, Australian Bureau of Statistics census, Pennsylvania's unemployment compensation systems... There was a time when "No one was ever fired for buying IBM" but those days are long past.

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Re: Don't these management types read the newspapers?

Itsy Bitsy Moron was a sleazy operation even then rife with incompetets and mismanagement that made your garden variety PHB look like a genius.

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Anonymous Coward

It went well for RBS when they got rid of 7,500 man years of site knowledge (NOT!), we'll see how long it takes for Lloyds to suffer a similar failure.

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Oh dear. Apart from banking with Lloyds for the last 30 years ( but not for much longer) I went through TUPE into IBM after they did a similar deal with a big media company a couple of years back. I was spat out along with 95% of my colleagues some 15 months later after doing "knowledge transfer" with some dude located far, far away.

What can I say of my experience with IBM? They are without doubt the worst bunch I've had the misfortune to work for in 35 years of employment - abject clueless excuse for a company. So glad to have gotten out. Really feel for the Lloyds employees, really very sad.

Start looking around is the only suggestion I can make. As someone else already said you'll get the IBM spiel about how valuable your are, IBM'er, blah blah. It's all bull and your job will probably end up being done out of Bangalore once you done the KT. You'll dig your own grave and then be shoved into it once they're happy they've sucked enough out of you.

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Century 21

IIRC Century 21 was a Gerry Anderson company. So make your own dummies / puppets joke here :-)

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Anonymous Coward

International Business Machinations

International = Offshoring

Business = Money

Machinations = Management

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Anonymous Coward

We are in the process of giving IBM our systems (we are a Bank that likes to cooperate), each and everyone has had significant outage with in the first couple of weeks, its an absolute disaster.

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FAIL

As someone once said...

.....when the company I worked for chucked out Siemens incompetent outsourcing service: "If you think Siemens are bad, wait till IBM get in".

He was SOOOO right - at least Siemens got to the end of their contract. IBM got chucked out MUCH earlier than that.

We used to call the "IBM network" the "IBM NOTwork".

Now, where are my Lloyds shares and the number of my stockbroker..........

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Looking after themselves

Strange how it's never the senior directors who have driven the company to the position of considering Outsourcing who never consider Outsourcing their own Director level jobs. No really it's not strange at all is it. Chris

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