back to article Germany to roll out €100bn gigabit internet network

Germany's federal government plans to roll out a gigabit internet service across Germany by 2025, through a government and private consortium known as Netzallianz Digitales Deutschland. The €100bn project will focus on bandwidth, security and response times, minister for transport and digital infrastructure Alexander Dobrindt …

Anonymous Coward

Surely not?

>The government will make the money available to the country's federal states, which are responsible >for education, said education minister Johanna Wanka.

Please tell me that's not someones real name?

Seriously, I assume gigabit is the intended endpoint delivery speed, not the network "backbone" speed?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Surely not?

You get used to it. The first time I drove to Germany, I drove past Wankum, I was a little surpised,

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Boffin

Re: Surely not?

There's someone at my work with that surname. She studied for a while in London so I'm sure she's very aware of its other meaning!

In German it's pronounced "Vanka" which sounds much less rude...

Icon 'cos she's a scientist -->

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Re: Surely not?

There's also the town of Wankdorf, home to Young Boys FC as per the various famous headlines... http://www.espnfc.com/story/337901/young-boys-wankdorf-erection-relief

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Re: Surely not?

What needs that sort of bandwidth in residential settings?!

There must be some sort of large local market for multi-angle VHD video streams....

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Re: Surely not?

"What needs that sort of bandwidth in residential settings?!"

Botnets?

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Re: Surely not?

It's as if El Reg's headline writer has got a second job.

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Re: Surely not?

Oh, that's quite tame.

When you get overtaken on the Autobahn, by a bus with Fücker Reisen proudly emblazoned on the side, you quickly realise that drinking coffee while behind the wheel can get quite dangerous in Germany. :)

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Re: Surely not?

>What needs that sort of bandwidth in residential settings?!

Real time mass surveillance.

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Anonymous Coward

Meanwhile in Britanistan you can't get more than 10Mbps in large swathes of inner London, God help you if you live in a rural area.

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I live in a semi-rural area of Germany and we have 100mbps down, 25 up for 49€ a month, with VOIP flat rates in all German networks.

If I switched from DSL to cable, I could get gigabit, but the cable provider is a bit of a bandit and accused my wife of stealing cable at her last flat (she had satellite TV), so she won't let them within spitting distance of our property.

100mbps is more than adequate at the moment.

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Re: Meanwhile in Britanistan...

This is entirely the fault of Westminster, not BT!

Back in circa 2008 when the government decided to do something about the state of UK broadband, they had the choice: jump in and invest in FTTP nationwide or 'tweak' the existing network. When they saw the price BT was quoting for FTTC, they then looked at the price tag for a meaningful 'tweak', they then muttered and came up with a scheme that enabled them (the politicians) to be seen to be "investing in Britain", yet to do so with minimal taxpayer investment. thus we got BDUK and we all know how that has faired...

Interestingly, BT's quote for universal FTTP was circa £20bn, so I think once again we have an example of the German's sticking two fingers up to the UK and showing us how things (state-investment) should be done, all within EU rules...

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Cable speed in Germany

I don't know about your location, but from what I've seen (I'm going to move to Germany in few years) the cable speed is decent down, but upload speed is rather bad. Where I'm planning on moving (housing company with a deal with cablesurf internet+tv company) are currently offering 400Mbps down and only 12Mbps up. I plan on taking that deal with minimal television package. I don't want or need the "premium" television channels.

I currently have fibre internet in Denmark, 100Mbps up and down.

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Re: Cable speed in Germany

Not sure what the cable offers upstream here. I live in Lower Saxony. But Osnatel offers very good packages here - they rolled out FTTC a couple of years back and they offer good deals here.

I was with DT, but they only offered 2mbps. I looked at Osnatel and got the 50mbps package, it has since been bumped to 100mbps. Having been a long term DT customer, I aksed what they could offer, to compete with Osnatel DSL. They offered 3mbps and a satellite TV package! Needless to say, the change to Osnatel was done pronto.

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Re: Cable speed in Germany

@big_D, You're almost next door to me (~200 - 800 km). I plan on moving to Flensburg (Schleswig-Holstein) from Denmark, I'm located 7 km from Flensburg, in a small danish town called Bov (or just Padborg to make things simple).

I guess the upload speeds on cable are around the same as in Flensburg. The main problem is as I understand it the amount of analogue channels still on cable in Germany (around 20 - 40, depending). They just take up bandwidth that might be used for internet, in Denmark YouSee has turned off FM radio and analogue television to increase internet speed up to 1Gbps down and I guess around 500Mbps up at best conditions. Other cable providers (local) continue to have FM radio, but all have turned off analogue television channels. DAB+ radio is now also offered over cable (not possible with analogue television channels on VHF 5 - 12).

I hope that once I move to Flensburg that upload speeds have gotten better. I got few years, until then its just a lot of trip over to Germany with the bus.

I also think, since I'll be living in a block apartment* (rented) that I can't really refuse cable and I'm not sure how good the telephone lines are in Flensburg. I think they are old that just gives worse internet speed. The good news is that I should get IPv6 (no static IPv4 for home accounts) according to cablesurf website.

* I think this is the right word. I'll be free of garden work.

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Re: Cable speed in Germany

I thought Germany had dropped analogue years ago. Certainly terrestrial TV switched to digital in 2008 and satellite has been digital since around 2004. DVB-S2 has been the mainstay for several years now, for satellite, and DVB-T will be switched off at the end of the month, being replaced by DVB-T2. We have DAB+ in the cars and in the kitchen, but analogue FM is still widely used here. That hasn't caught on as well - mainly because few car manufacturers offer DAB as standard in their cars, I think.

No idea what cable companies use, I've never had cable. But my youngest daughter has Kabel Deutschland in her flat and that is DVB-C (digital), which the TV receives without the need for a set-top box. But she uses EWE-Tel for her broadband, which is a 50mbps DSL connection. Whether Kabel Deutschland also push analogue alongside the digital, I don't know.

We use satellite (DVB-S2) and normal broadband (Osnatel). In fact, in the UK I used to have Sky, but since moving to Germany, I've never had any subscription TV service, just the freeview channels. With around 70 channels, I've never seen the need for a subscription. Now, with Amazon Prime, I get a lot of films and series to watch as well.

Flensburg is about 400KM from here (Osnabrückerland).

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Re: Cable speed in Germany

@ big_D, I don't know why Germany still has analogue cable. Wikipedia says its because of popularity and in part due to ancient agreements all over the country, that is mostly Kabel Deutschland problem as I understand it. I plan on setting up a flat panel satellite dish or a 50cm dish once I move to Flensburg (if I can). I'm waiting for the DVB-T to DVB-T2 change. It is going to be interesting to see what I pick-up over the antenna.

I still have to get the basic cable television channels over the cable due to an agreement the housing company has with cablesurf (or its parent company, Wohnen & Telecommunication) when I finally move to Flensburg. I think it is the type of deal that makes everyone pays for cable television, but having internet is optional.

This is going to be a major problem for upload speed as I mentioned before (lack of frequency bandwidth needed). It is also going to affect download speed, but since many are already at 400Mbps it is less of a problem. It only becomes a problem when speeds are pushed up to 1Gbbps due to frequency bandwidth requirement.

I checked and Kabel Deutschland (Vodafone) has analogue channels going. You can find the list here.

https://helpdesk.kdgforum.de/sendb/belegung-201.html

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Cable speed in Germany

"satellite has been digital since around 2004. "

2004 may have been when German digital satellite started, but analogue satellite didn't get switched off till April 2012.

Sources include:

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1641115/near-the-end-of-analogue-astra-1

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Re: Cable speed in Germany

> I don't know about your location, but from what I've seen (I'm going to move to Germany in few years) the cable speed is decent down, but upload speed is rather bad.

AIUI this asymmetry is basically inherent in the network design and resulting infrastructure. The last few hundred metres is co-ax cable with a handful of (analogue) amplifiers for downstream signal. Upstream signal is filtered and not amplified and is therefore constrained to low frequencies where attenuation is less - lower bandwidth leading to lower data rates.

See eg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial.

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gv
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Government Investment

The government investing in critical infrastructure (internet access, public transport network, health service, education) for the public good is quite a novel idea. I wonder if it'll catch on?

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Re: Government Investment

Nah, that's the sort of thing those narsty forinners do - we don't want any of that thank you very much.

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Re: Government Investment

Yeah, the key word there is 'investing'. Investing = good. Instead of obsessing about the deficit, if a future benefit is demonstrable, and value for money is guaranteed, I'd be happy for Blighty to borrow to invest. Never a better time.

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Re: Government Investment

On the other hand, Germany is fighting to reduce its loans at the moment.

All local councils now have to be in the black. It meant a couple of years of lower service from the councils, the roads have suffered, for example, but now that those around here are no longer in debt, they are investing again.

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Re: Government Investment

Yeah, the key word there is 'investing'. Investing = good.

Recent UK governments use the phrase "investing" when they mean "borrowing money to pay salaries", it's become a bit of a devalued word.

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Happy

Re: Pen-y-gors Re: Government Investment

They best get it in the budget before Brexit leaves German taxpayers paying even more for the next Greek bailout.

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oooo

i live in rural France my average speed is wait for it, wait fir it... 0.47mb

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Anonymous Coward

Re: oooo

I didn't realise things moved that fast in rural France.

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Ogi
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Re: oooo

> i live in rural France my average speed is wait for it, wait fir it... 0.47mb

Depends on where. A friend in rural France (Near the Pyrenees) has 30mbit/s ADSL, and apparently the village is earmarked for a new fibre backbone connection (along with electricity upgrade to underground cables), so soon he will have a faster internet connection than I do in central London :-/ (apparently he will get 100mbit/s).

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Re: oooo

Zoom. Did you make that comment by carrier pigeon?

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N2

Re: oooo

So do I & my speed is a perfectly acceptable 9Mb/s / 1Mb/s on the up.

By 2018 the whole region will have FTC

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Joke

Re: oooo

That's because of all the 'snails'

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Re: oooo

There is an awful lot more of rural France (similar populations but France is much bigger) than there is of rural Britain but the places I know (and some of them are pretty rural) generally have at least 5 - 10 MB ADSL because around 10 years ago the government decided it had to be done

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Anonymous Coward

Re: oooo

around 10 years ago the government decided it had to be done to spend tax money on it.

I'm sure the Parisiens are delighted that their money is being spent to give les paysans fast internet.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: oooo

"apparently he will get 100mbit/s"

Even then, 100 millibits per second is not particularly fast.

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Are you watching BT ?

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Or is the government listening...

So you missed the point that this is an investment bankrolled by the German federal government? It says that the Federal government is already investing €4bn a year and is going to raise this by another €3bn to €7bn a year.

To put this in perspective, the total BDUK central government budget is about £780m (albeit there is local authority match funding).

Quite some difference there...

nb. there would be major issues regarding state aid if the UK govt went down this state corparist given the competing private networks. But then the German Government has a completely different relationship with DT to the one that the UK government has with BT.

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Re: Or is the government listening...

It isn't just DT.

We have EWETel/Osnatel cables at home (FTTC) and at work the cable is from Inexio (FTTP). There are lots of suppliers around the country laying fibre.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: BT vs DT

"the German Government has a completely different relationship with DT to the one that the UK government has with BT."

Go on. Compare and contrast. Preferably remembering to note that BT (UK) never really had affordable ISDN of any kind, whereas ISDN in Germany was not only affordable but widely deployed, at a time when BT UK HQ were still dreaming about the laughable BT Midband not-a-product (I kid you not).

And here we are a decade and a half later, BT still as clueless and profitable and badly regulated as ever. Scum.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/04/28/bt_midband_to_cost/

"BT's "midband" service - a 128k Net access product based on ISDN and aimed at people who can't get broadband - is to cost significantly more and do even less than the telco's entry-level ADSL service.

When details of BT Midband were first raised in November last year it was suggested that the service would cost around £25-£30 a month - the same(ish) as existing BT's ADSL services.

But documents seen by The Register reveal that BT Midband is to cost £35 a month and limit users to up to 150 hours online a month. [continues]"

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Re: BT vs DT

DT is hurridely swapping customers over from ISDN to VOIP. The hardware suppliers are stopping support for the exchange hardware, so DT are moving away from ISDN.

ISDN was big in the late 90s and through the 2000s. Over here, if you wanted broadband, you pretty much had to have ISDN. BT, on the other hand, were saying that it was impossible to have ISDN and broadband on the same cable... Perhaps if they had used Standard ISDN and not their bastardised version.

We switched to VOIP when we moved to Osnatel, about 3 years ago.

Businesses in Germany will have to swap to VOIP by mid 2018.

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Re: Or is the government listening...

LA matched funding = same public pot, different name. UK get your sh*t together please - it's embarrassing. (I live in rural Dorset where there are no FTTC plans, andI have a client in Soho who still cannot get FTTC)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Or is the government listening...

"I live in rural Dorset where there are no FTTC plans"

So? Leave it to the market, and miracles will occur, right?

What happened to your multiple award winning local(ish) ISP, West Dorset Internet ? Ah, I see: dissolved 2011.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/04627226

What about WDI's associate/neighbour/successor, South West Internet (like WDI, also featuring T** S**** as a director)?

Maybe T**'s spending more time on his IoT security job than he is on his ISP work?

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FAIL

And the budget here spaffs a few million on vapourware and padding BT margins. If the brexiteers want the UK to become like Germany (strong, export lead economy) then they are going to have to start acting like it.

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Gigabit will make us strong, butter will only make us fat.

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So, if SS-GB was factual ( rather than just the Beeb copying Amazon's Man in a High Castle), then we'd be getting some of that lovely speed. If only our grandparents hadn't tried so hard !!!!

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If only our grandparents hadn't tried so hard...

Yes, but the SS would have used ubiquitous broadband technology to conduct mass surveillance. At least we've been spared that.

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Re: If only our grandparents hadn't tried so hard...

You think you've put all the nastiness to the back of your mind, then you remember what's going on.

Oh god, I feel very depresssed...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If only our grandparents hadn't tried so hard...

The recent announcements of UK's Digital Strategy/BT Openreach "virtual separation" looks more like pissing in the wind, with this German announcement.

The bigger concern is how cocksure TM is about it all, when she hasn't a bloody clue.

If she was a bloke, it would be the equivalant of getting their large erect p**** out at the dispatch box, gripped tightly by the hand, shaking it - saying "take some of this, Euro Plebs".

Fills me with dread, the idea that anyone's daugher (let alone mine) would look up to TM as some sort of female role model.

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Re: If only our grandparents hadn't tried so hard...

"Yes, but the SS would have used ubiquitous broadband technology to conduct mass surveillance. At least we've been spared that."

Did you forget the joke icon?

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"So, if SS-GB was factual ( rather than just the Beeb copying Amazon's Man in a High Castle)"

It's based on Len Deighton's 1978 novel of the same name. It also has a far superior ending to Dick's take on the alternate history genre.

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Re: If only our grandparents hadn't tried so hard...

Did you forget the joke icon?

It's not a laughing matter.

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