Sign in / up

back to article Linus Torvalds lashes devs who 'screw all the rules and processes' and send him 'crap'

Linux 4.11's first release candidate has been released, but not without a little friction after Linus Torvalds railed at the quality of some code sent his way during the merge process for the new update to the platform. Torvalds has a few gripes, writing that “if you cannot follow the simple merge window rules (this whole two- …

COMMENTS

Post your comment
House rules Send corrections
Add to 'My topics' unstar *

Page:

  1. kain preacher

    Few things that was tame for him. You must have a set of balls and be the ultimate narcissist to send code to Linus that does not even build.If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build you should be perma banned from touching anything thing. Sounds like these people did not do a single test or had some ultra weird setup requiring vague modules,api to build right.

    38 5 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      @kain

      Assuming it actually happened.

      I'm in no position to judge on that part but I do consider it a bit odd to read that someone wouldn't even test their own stuff. Making you all the more curious to who Torvalds is shouting at yet today this detail wasn't being shared. Even though he was previously all the more eager to directly address RedHat representatives and call them out for their horrid update. Yet now he choses to keep up anonymity?

      I have no reason not to believe him, but it would have made more impact on me if he called out the people who actually did it.

      In my opinion: seems some are good enough to be scolded at in public and some are special enough to be kept safe. Takes away the impact and reeks of double standards.

      Of course: calling 'm out in public also gives the other party a platform to actually talk back.

      8 21 Reply
      1. Wensleydale Cheese
        Reply Icon

        Re: @kain

        I do consider it a bit odd to read that someone wouldn't even test their own stuff

        You have never seen the results of outsourcing a large piece of software which was until that point well engineered.

        I claim my 5 pounds.

        6 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

      Probably it does build somehow. On their systems exclusively. It looks Linux is undergoing the same issue Windows underwent some time in the past too - the arrival of lame developers. It happens to any platform as soon as it becomes widespread enough.

      18 1 Reply
      1. WatAWorld
        Reply Icon

        Re: "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

        Except that MS paid its developers rather than depending on charity donations of time from them.

        6 28 Reply
        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

          "Except that MS paid its developers rather than depending on charity donations of time from them."

          Who writes Windows drivers?

          16 3 Reply
          1. WatAWorld
            Reply Icon

            Re: "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

            @DS "Who writes Windows drivers?"

            Sometimes MS employees, but usually paid employees of the hardware maker.

            Why?

            10 15 Reply
            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

              "usually paid employees of the hardware maker."

              And these are donated to Windows.

              And if you look who contributes code to Linux it's mostly paid employees of H/W manufacturers or distro makers such as Red Hat.

              Either both cases are charity or neither is. Is that beyond your understanding?

              29 6 Reply
        2. hplasm
          Reply Icon
          Gimp

          Re: "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

          "Except that MS paid its developers rather than depending on charity donations of time from them."

          They were robbed.

          16 3 Reply
        3. Vladimir Nicolici
          Reply Icon

          Re: Trojans

          Maybe, but MS relies on charity donations of time from the users to test their products.

          1 0 Reply
      2. cream wobbly
        Reply Icon

        Re: "If you are stupid enough to try and ship code that does not build"

        Except that Microsoft didn't -- and judging by their efforts I've seen, still don't -- have the same calibre of gatekeeper.

        7 2 Reply
    3. ElReg!comments!Pierre
      Reply Icon

      > Sounds like these people did not do a single test or had some ultra weird setup requiring vague modules,api to build right.

      That certainly rings a bell. *cough* *cough* systemd *cough* cough*

      31 2 Reply
      1. kain preacher
        Reply Icon

        you I did not stop to think about systemd . Some day it might work or it might a me a more screwed up version of the windows reg.

        0 2 Reply
      2. Sproggit
        Reply Icon

        Bingo!

        I regret that I have only one up-vote to offer you.

        But you're *so* right...

        SYSTEMD = Screwed Your Machine 'Til Everything's Maliciously Destroyed.

        0 1 Reply
    4. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Torvalds = Trump?

      Ever see them together?

      3 16 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Torvalds != Trump

        Linus has an attention span and a command of English grammar.

        Anon because, NOT Torvalds.

        10 1 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Torvalds != Trump

          Linus serves point and has contributed to the world. Also when Linus goes off on person he has a reason and facts.

          3 0 Reply
  2. Palpy

    I for one would welcome --

    -- a team leader that set such clear standards for work. But I think the word for someone submitting code that does not build is not "narcissist" but "masochist"?

    31 0 Reply
    1. kain preacher
      Reply Icon

      Re: I for one would welcome --

      You have to admit you must have a massive ego to submit that kind of code to Linus. Lets say massive ego + masochist. I'm surprised there was only one cuss word. That is tame rant for a boss let alone Linus.

      8 1 Reply
    2. jake Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: I for one would welcome --

      I think the words are closer to "stupid fucking idiots".

      12 1 Reply
    3. WatAWorld
      Reply Icon

      Re: I for one would welcome --

      But I think the word for someone submitting code that does not build is not "narcissist" but "traitor".

      That assumes they owe you some loyalty.

      2 9 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I for one would welcome --

        One wonders why there isn't a CI system which automatically rejects submissions that don't build?

        3 0 Reply
  3. jonfr

    Not surprise reaction from Linus

    This is not a surprise from Linus, bugs do happen and due to complex Linux is something A not working with something E, G and D is hard to avoid at all. Lack of quality of code happens due to pressure and rushing things along, even if its just in rc builds.

    Disclaimer: I'm not yet a programmer, but I've been looking into it as a next step in learning more about computers.

    0 21 Reply
    1. jake Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Grasshopper ...

      ... allow me to impart some of the wisdom of the Ancient Coders: Do not begin to write code without first understanding full extent of the problem.

      22 3 Reply
      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Meh

        Re: Grasshopper ...

        The day I get a full spec will probably be the day after I retire. If I'm allowed to retire in the glorious future that awaits us.

        30 0 Reply
      2. Tom 7
        Reply Icon

        Re: Grasshopper ...

        But its only in writing the code that the full extent of the problem is revealed.

        15 0 Reply
      3. WatAWorld
        Reply Icon

        Re: Grasshopper ...

        "... allow me to impart some of the wisdom of the Ancient Coders: Do not begin to write code without first understanding full extent of the problem."

        That is ideally true in the vast majority of cases, especially those with recently written in-house software at companies who've always had high quality staffing and procedures.

        Then there are:

        - The poor bastards stuck in shops where they're afraid to ask questions because they'll either be called stupid or ostracized as newbies.

        - The poor bastards told to fix the current problem because it is urgent and that ramifications can be taken care of laster, and

        - The poor bastards stuck in shops where most documentation was destroyed by people worried about their personal 'job security'.

        More applicably to operating systems and massive shrink wrapped applications: There now there are systems installed in such a vast variety of companies all around the world, each using it for different purposes, different alphabets, each customizing it in their own way, each with different unforeseen needs, running on a vast variety of imperfect hardware, and then you'll realize that a detailed total understanding of the full extent of the problem is not always possible.

        Understanding the full extent of the problem with mega complex massive multi-user software will come with sitting in your ashram chamber and accepting that your knowledge is not detailed that there will never be bug fixes, future releases and future versions.

        You try to insist on get a sufficient understanding of the problem that you won't introduce bugs, while accepting that in such complex situations nothing is 100%.

        (I think maybe that is how 'security researchers' see the world -- as a bunch of small shops with simple specs and simple human interactions, something that a human being can totally understand with a couple of months effort. That would explain why they think project scheduling, analysis, coding, unit testing, system integration testing, regression testing, beta testing and production roll-out, done over 15 countries with 45 different cultures and delivered to 137 countries in 55 languages should never take more than 90 days.)

        5 2 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Grasshopper ...

          @WatAWorld

          If the extend of the problem is unknowable, they should be clear on what problem they think they have solved, and what the gaps/risks are i.e. what they have not tried to solve.

          I agree it is not always possible to understand everything when approaching a solution, but it is normally possible to frame your effort in what you are, and are not capable of achieving and what the constraints are.

          4 0 Reply
      4. DJ Smiley
        Reply Icon

        Re: Grasshopper ...

        If he's read (and understood) the entire Linux Kernel then he's a better man that me (and most probably Linus who'd be happy to admit it too.

        2 0 Reply
      5. d3vy
        Reply Icon

        Re: Grasshopper ...

        "Do not begin to write code without first understanding full extent of the problem."

        Didn't anyone tell you, we're agile now... Apparently that means no spec ever. Just a vague idea of what the user wants.

        1 0 Reply
    2. WatAWorld
      Reply Icon

      Re: Not surprise reaction from Linus

      Lack of quality code comes from getting your code second hand, built by people paid to fulfill some paying companies own project, and then trying to send it out to the world.

      0 11 Reply
      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Not surprise reaction from Linus

        "Lack of quality code comes from getting your code second hand, built by people paid to fulfill some paying companies own project"

        The biggest single contributor is usually Intel. Their "project" is the Intel processor line. Of course, given some recent experiences you may have a point....

        https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/03/netgear_recalling_hardware_with_bad_intel_atoms/

        4 0 Reply
  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good. Praise in public, bollock in private

    I like the new Linus. Evolving. Like the kernel.

    9 0 Reply
  5. Hstubbe

    And still master bully Torvalds and his sado-madochistic slaves are unable to release a version of their hobbyist kernel that mskes.the wifi in my 5 year old laptop work

    Amateurs.

    3 64 Reply
    1. 9Rune5
      Reply Icon

      Arguably, the amateurs who assembled your computer should have made sure that all the components came from respectable vendors supplying drivers for all major operating systems.

      And the amateur buying said computer should have verified that the vendor was in the business of selling proper computers and not mere toys.

      Good device drivers is mainly the hardware oems' responsibility. Many Windows installations have gone the way of the dodo due to dodgy third-party drivers. (MS writes very few drivers themselves)

      51 2 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

        Just, if they supply drivers as binary ones, the GNUs will moooooooohhhh...... and well, is Linux desktop a "major" operating system given its very small market share?

        1 26 Reply
        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

          "is Linux desktop a "major" operating system given its very small market share?"

          Are you sure? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/23/chromebook-mac-google-pc-sales

          10 0 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

            Is Chrome Linux? Can you install and run any Linux software on Chrome? Google will of course write drivers for the Chrome hardware, getting all the needed info from the OEM, signing all the required NDAs, and maybe won't publish them either. Android too is not Linux, is a Google proprietary OS built on top of the Linux kernel.... just like macOS is not FreeBSD. There's a reason why the macOS driver framework is not the FreeBSD one...

            0 17 Reply
            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

              "Is Chrome Linux?"

              Chrome OS is (as distinct from just plain Chrome which is a browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

              11 0 Reply
            2. Lars Silver badge
              Reply Icon
              Happy

              Re: "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

              Thanks, you got it, Linux is a kernel.

              1 0 Reply
        2. HieronymusBloggs
          Reply Icon

          Re: "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

          "is Linux desktop a "major" operating system given its very small market share?"

          Now that systemd has forced desktop-related features onto everything from web servers to supercomputers, I'd say yes.

          7 1 Reply
        3. Daniel von Asmuth
          Reply Icon
          Linux

          Re: "supplying drivers for all major operating systems"

          Linux has a market share of 2 % on desktops (that's literally millions of 'computers'), a very competitive market share in servers, a majority in embedded devices, some 81 % of smartphones and over 99 % of all supercomputers.

          9 0 Reply
      2. WatAWorld
        Reply Icon

        Let us get definitions straight here:

        If and only if you are normally paid for your work are you a professional.

        If you work for free you're an amateur.

        3 15 Reply
        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          If and only if you are normally paid for your work are you a professional.

          If you work for free you're an amateur.

          Could you explain a little further.

          Are the devs working for Intel being paid or not? Assuming they are that makes them professionals. Intel donates their work to the Linux kernel for free. Does that make them amateurs?

          20 0 Reply
          1. WatAWorld
            Reply Icon

            "Are the devs working for Intel being paid or not? Assuming they are that makes them professionals. Intel donates their work to the Linux kernel for free. Does that make them amateurs?"

            As covered in one of my other posts in this topic: The amature contributions to Linux and then the professional contribution to Linux.

            The amateurs work for free, for experience or as part of class work.

            The Intel, AMD, nVidia, etc developers are professionals paid by their employers. So are the developers working for banks, governments, consulting firms, and other companies that donate code to Torvalds.

            Those professionals are employed by those other companies, not Linux.

            With some exceptions, the objectives of the projects they are working on are not to improve Linux, but rather to get THEIR product to work with Linux, or to change Linux so it will play nice with THEIR internal app, or to eliminate some bug in Linux that affects their company and their clients.

            - Their jobs are to fulfill the needs of their employer and their employer's clients.

            - Their loyalty is to their employer and their employer's clients.

            - They surely don't want to hurt Linux. They probably all want to play nice, because of professionalism and so their companies aren't banned.

            - But their loyalties and objectives are not to make sure that Linux runs fine and bug free on obscure stuff at other companies. When their boss assigns them to a new project, regression testing of the old project ends.

            So this stuff is created so Linux will work with their equipment or their internal applications, and it is donated to Linux for free. It is written by them so their stuff will work. And they're donating it to Torvalds for free. Even if it has bugs, it is arguably worth the price Torvalds pays for it.

            Is Torvalds not even giving them a registered charity donation receipt so they can claim their effort on their income taxes?

            8 13 Reply
            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              "With some exceptions, the objectives of the projects they are working on are not to improve Linux, but rather to get THEIR product to work with Linux, or to change Linux so it will play nice with THEIR internal app, or to eliminate some bug in Linux that affects their company and their clients."

              Upvoted because this is actually an interesting comment.

              The point at which I think we diverge is this: you're seeing Linux as something separate from these contributors (and here I'm including the employers such as Intel as contributors), as some external product which they have to improve.

              I think you're looking at it wrong. Linux is, collectively, their product. Torvalds could step away from it today and people (including those companies) would still go on contributing because they see it as worth their while to have that product there and continuing to evolve.

              One other interesting aspect of all this discussion is the role of the companies who contribute vs those who don't. If some H/W manufacturers such as Intel find it essential to contribute to Linux by sharing IP what, really, does it say about the self-image of those who seem to think it essential not to? Do they really think they know something Intel doesn't? Or do they not know something Intel does? Or, as someone said in another comment, are they ashamed of the quality of their code?

              14 0 Reply

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Daniel von Asmuth
        Reply Icon

        Drunken Drivers

        Many perfectly good PC components and peripherals have gone to garbage dumps due to lousy or missing dirvers.

        4 0 Reply
    2. hplasm
      Reply Icon
      Windows

      Aw Diddums...

      Stick to Win 10. It sounds just made for you.

      33 3 Reply
      1. Dazed and Confused
        Reply Icon

        Re: Aw Diddums...

        > Stick to Win 10. It sounds just made for you.

        Which doesn't work* on any platform in my (all be it limited) experience.

        * for an acceptable value of work.

        10 4 Reply

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

Forgotten password ?

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like