back to article Pence v Clinton: Both used private email for work, one hacked, one accused of hypocrisy

US Vice President Mike Pence has been accused of hypocrisy after it was revealed he used his personal AOL account for state government business. That Pence had a personal AOL account was public knowledge – rather embarrassingly, it was hacked last year and the intruder sent out emails to his contacts saying he had been mugged …

Alert

A suprise?

Republican hypocrisy? Better than everyone else attitude? Double standards?

No, couldn't happen! [/s]

Europe just announce possible retaliative actions regarding excessive American border exams of European citizens. About time. The only way to crush arrogance is to show that yes, there *will* be repercussions to your acts and everyone simply won't bow down to you like a slave.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A suprise?

Different governments, different standards, don't see why that's a problem.

As far as the retaliations go I hope it's of the kind;

"What do you do for work?"

"I work for the U.S. government."

<snaps on rubber gloves and picks up a riding crop> "Right this way, we've got a few questions."

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Mushroom

Re: A suprise?

There is no hypocrisy on the part of the Republicans.

There is however hypocrisy on the part of the Democrats.

This is a non story. Pence had a state email address and conducted most of his business thru the official email address. 29 'pages'. So how many emails exactly?

Compared to how many pages from Clinton. Not just what she returned to State, and the FBI, but also what the FBI recovered from the server and from the other accounts like Sidney's ? Bit of a big difference by a couple of order of magnitude.

And then you have the issue of Pence's actions not being illegal.

Clinton? Oh yeah. No question. Post election and in January, the FBI quietly dumped emails between Clinton and Sidney which contained classified material including some SIGINT. (IIRC)

There's more and if you're following US politics, the Democrats are imploding and have shown a lot of hypocrisy on their part. Its beyond laughable and there needs to be a bit of housecleaning. Its not that we should remove them and replace them with Republicans, but remove them and replace them with members of their own party. We need to have some semblance of balance between the two parties as they diverge to the extreme Right and Left.

As an independent (never been a member of either party, or any party for that matter) , I have to say that its the Democrats who are acting like petchulant children.

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Re: A suprise?

Perhaps you do not quite understand the meaning of hypocrisy. Just to help here is the Wikipedia definition:

Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations, especially with respect to religious and moral beliefs; hence in general sense, dissimulation, pretense, sham.

Now, saying that it was wrong for Clinton to use her personal email account for government business, while at the same time Pence was doing exactly the same thing himself equals hypocrisy.

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Mushroom

@macjules Re: A suprise?

Sorry, you fail to actually grasp the issue.

Pence used his personal AOL account for some emails. Was this right? No, however it wasn't illegal and had he cc'd his state government email address, it would have been 100% Kosher. John Kerry and other in the government have done the same thing. Except here. Kerry, while a Senator used his personal email account to email Clinton's private email server account and the content I believe contained classified material.

Now, did we see John Kerry a Democrat, getting his pee pee spanked by the Obama Administration? Or anybody? No.

So there's your hypocrisy.

With respect to Clinton. She didn't just use a personal email account for some of her emails, SHE USED A PERSONAL SERVER FOR ALL EMAILS. Now unlike Pence where there are no laws or official records act for Governors, there is a law on the books for Federal Government Officials in certain high ranking positions that require them to retain documents and in the 90's then President Bill Clinton signed into the law the inclusion of emails.

So, just by setting up the server in an effort to skirt the Official Records Act, Hillary Clinton and her staff committed a crime. Its only a misdemeanor count per email, but still criminal.

Now because she used it for all of her communications, that means she transmitted and stored classified material in a manner that too is illegal. That's in the felony range of criminal acts. She violated the Espionage Act. A Federal Crime

Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton did. So where's the hypocrisy in that?

Short answer, there is none.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @macjules A suprise?

Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton did. So where's the hypocrisy in that?

Short answer, there is none.

Making a big stink about your political opponent using personal email for government business, while you yourself do the same, is hypocrisy - no matter how relatively benign your misuse is in comparison.

On the flip side, making a big stink about your political opponent using personal email for government business, while previously having downplayed a similar, but much more serious, case of misuse by your erstwhile political ally, is also hypocrisy.

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Re: Espionage Act

What you're missing is "intent". You, nor anyone else, has established any criminal intent or harm in Clinton's use of a private email server -- and not for lack of trying. Was it a dumb thing to do? Yes. Did it actually cause any issues? No.

That said, Clinton should have been, and was, and length, investigated over the issue. Now, will you say the same about Trump's campaign and the potential of Russian influence, or do you believe Trump should be immune from investigation over this?

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Re: A suprise?

Hate to defend VP Pense, but...

Clinton was secretary of state - secrecy is required due to the nature of the job!

Pense was governor - any high official in any company or government is expected to use the official e-mail for official business. This is bad practice, not illegal. This gives the government the right to review all his e-mails, personal and government, and hold retention policies, becoming part of the public record in it's entirety, regardless of how private a matter he is discussing (the whole reason we have different e-mail accounts).

As for hypocracy, Clinton fired direct employees who used their personal e-mail accounts for business duties while serving as Secretary of state. I have heard of no such similar complaint from Pense.

Don't get me wrong, Pence should be called to task and forced to use his government e-mail account for all official duties. This in and off itself is bad policy, not illegal, as Clinton's action were. Just to add, if he does this as VP, then his actions would be illegal ( a matter of breach of national security).

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Re: Espionage Act

Clinton's personal server for State Department email correspondence violated federal law, government-wide regulations, and State Department instructions, none of that having anything to do with the espionage act. Those federal laws and standards did not apply to Mike Pence during his service as governor of Indiana, and by all reports I have seen, including this one, he complied with the applicable Indiana laws.

As far as whether Clinton's actions were damaging, in view of reports of the fundamental vulnerability of clintonemail.com, including in The Register, along with secure erasure of the servers' disks and destruction of all backups before the servers were examined by government forensic specialists, the only safe and reasonable conclusion is that everything on the server came into possession of at least one foreign intelligence service. That no evidence was found (if true) is of no consequence.

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Re: A suprise?

In his present position, Pence is required to use US government facilities for (almost) all official communication.

"Almost" because use of non-government facilities is not entirely forbidden for practical reasons. There may be instances in which it is impossible or impractical to use them, and there are procedures to deal with that, normally including copying or forwarding the message to the account which normally should have been used.

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Re: @macjules A suprise?

Clinton 's private mail server was primarily for Clinton business, not State Department business. She had in place a written policy about what traffic was to be used by her own domain. The fact that some traffic ended up on her server that shouldn't have been there was unfortunate -- careless -- but it doesn't show wholesale disregard for the law, just that you can't control everything that ends up in your in-box.

Clinton was hammered because there were a significant number of inbound messages missing, those 30,000, which as we all know were a big part of the cover up of Benghazi in the alt-right looking glass world..In our world they were probably junk, much f which would be discarded automatically.

This episode is just another example of how anything, any detail no matter how tiny, is used to beat down someone like Clinton. Meanwhile we've got an Administration which just plain doesn't play by any rules -- conflict of interest, security screening, ethics, it plain doesn't matter. In threads like this we usually see a fair number of posts defending them but I've noticed that the numbers dropped off sharply in recent weeks, I'd guess because you'd have to be really blind or totally committed to believe that this crew is anything but a bunch of self-serving incompetents.

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Re: A suprise?

Republican hypocrisy?

Why just republicans? I can think of a handful of modern politicians which have not been caught as hypocrites. The remaining thousands (if not tens of thousands) are all glaring hypocrites.

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Re: Espionage Act

Intent, intent, WTF, Clinton deliberately deleted tens of thousands of emails from her server so that they could not be recovered. Those included (for example) over 1,000 eMails to/from the then head of the US army and later head of the CIA, Petraeus. How could those, under any consideration whatsoever be considered personal. And highly confidential information WAS found in some of the Clinton eMails, item so secret that they were never supposed to leave the strictly compartmentalized systems that they are stored on.

Clinton absolutely lied and committed perjury about the content of her server as well. She testified before a Federal Judge with regard to an FOI suit that she had released ALL relevant eMails; which as the limited items recovered by the FBI showed to be a false claim. Then to top it off, AFTER the outstanding eMails were sub-poena'd she had the emails deleted and the server scubbed to prevent recovery.

Contrast Pence; used private eMail for SOME official business which is NOT illegal for a Governor, and he has cooperated in retrieving ALL those emails and having them placed on the public record.

You Clintonista's just can't help yourselves can you.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @macjules A suprise?

What bullshit, straight from the Clinton spin machine. There was almost NO private email found on the Clintonmail server, it WAS used for ALL Clinton's State Department emails. She may have issued a written policy to others, and in fact presided over people being fired for using private email. But Clinton herself never used any email system other than her own privately controlled one the whole time she was SOS. "Just careless because you can't control....." sweet Jesus, how deluded do you have to be to believe and trot out that stuff now ?

She had the server wiped and scrubbed after receiving a valid subpoena for the retention of the same. Amongst those scrubbed was over 1,000 between Clinton (and staff) and General Petreaus, at times head of the Army and head of the CIA. Private, don't make a bigger fool of yourself.

And those not recovered, which is a great many, more probably dealt with "donations" to the Clinton's in exchange for favours. Funny how the "Clinton Global Initiative" has folded up shop already after the election - no more graft to be extorted.

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Devil

Re: A suprise?

"Republican hypocrisy? Better than everyone else attitude? Double standards?"

More like 'Politician hypocrisy." But there are those out there with blinders on who would 'feel' otherwise.

Eh, nothing surprises me about this, really. Too many glass houses there in D.C.

(which is why I'm glad Trump 'the outsider' is president, now)

As for who broke the law and who didn't, I guess you COULD open up an investigation on Pence, but I think the article already stated he complied with Indiana laws, which apparently don't prevent you from having a personal account as long as everything gets archived for "hysterical porpoises". And now we see a possible motivation for NOT going after Mrs. Clinton. Who knew?

I just want OBAKA-CARE to die, no more 'individual mandate' specifically, and the tax cuts and de-regulation. Then let the press have their feeding frenzy while our lives all improve.

[note to the howler monkeys: you may not like my posts, and that's fine, going into a downvote frenzy just because it's me (maybe), but if you want me to go away, pray to whatever god you might believe in, or the spaghetti monster if you don't, that I get PLENTY more work, so that I'm not averting boredom by posting here, ha ha ha ha ha]

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@AC Re: @macjules A suprise?

Sorry, you still don't get it.

Lets try this again.

Clinton was Secretary of State.

Pence was Governor of IN.

Clinton must follow the law and retain all emails. See Official Records Act which includes email.

Pence has no restriction.

Clinton destroyed emails.

Pence didn't. They were all turned over and some were withheld by current IN government officials.

Pence had a government account. Clinton didn't.

Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton DID.

Got that? No hypocrisy on the part of Pence because he didn't break the law and was critical of Clinton who did.

HOWEVER, there is hypocrisy of the Democrats because like Pence, there are many in office who have used their personal accounts for government business. I used John Kerry because he got caught up using his personal account and its in the public eye. Clinton's staff also used personal accounts from time to time. So its hypocritical to go after Pence...

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Boffin

@brianbone Re: Espionage Act

You seem to not understand the law as well as you think.

Intent isn't required when you're charging someone with gross negligence. By definition you can't intentionally be negligent.

As to intent. They can show it.

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Boffin

@martinusher Re: @macjules A suprise?

Hate to break it to you mate, wrong on so many levels.

In fact there is so much evidence to show the contrary you could write a book on it.

Here's one of the simple facts that kills your theory.

The domain was created just before Clinton accepted the offer to be SoS.

(Oops!)

She had no written policy nor was allowed to do it.

At the same time, she turned down having a .gov domain email address.

(oops #2)

Do you really want to go on? It gets worse from here.

Like Cheryl Mills who knew about the server, claimed that there were no emails in response to a FOIA request. (Ooops #3) Oh and there's your intent. At least one of the several reasons...

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Meh

Re: @macjules A suprise?

@martinusher, your post is just too juicy. Please allow me to put my spin on it, k?

"Clinton 's private mail server was primarily for Clinton business, not State Department business."

Correct. But the two were mixed together, weren't they? Who cares how much private Clinton email was on there?

"She had in place a written policy about what traffic was to be used by her own domain. The fact that some traffic ended up on her server that shouldn't have been there was unfortunate -- careless -- but it doesn't show wholesale disregard for the law, just that you can't control everything that ends up in your in-box."

Um, the whole point of the State Department email system is to segregate all official department emails into a secure environment, right? And Hillary's own husband signed the law requiring her to use it. Also, it seems rather convenient for you to say it's all accidents with no bad intentions when the result is she got to control and hide what she wanted to. That's usually considered suspicious where I come from.

"Clinton was hammered because there were a significant number of inbound messages missing..."

Maybe so, but I wasn't paying attention to that, were you? I was riveted by the revelation that a presidential candidate had actually been caught with classified communications in her private possession, and while serving her country as Secretary of State no less.

"This episode is just another example of how anything, any detail no matter how tiny, is used to beat down someone like Clinton."

What? I thought Pence was getting the beat down here. ;-)

"Meanwhile we've got an Administration which just plain doesn't play by any rules..."

Oh, he's obeying the official rules all right, all propaganda aside. If he weren't then it would be official charges already, considering the charged climate in DC right now.

But I perceive a subtext to your plaint, and that is that Trump isn't playing by the real rules, the ones he's supposed to obey. Primarily he should not talk back when spoken to harshly by his betters in the Press. And it's true; President Trump doesn't just break those rules, he mangles them and leaves them for dead. About time too.

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Re: @macjules A suprise?

The stink made was about laws being broken. The crimes involved a personal email server, not the legal albeit curious use of a personal email ACCOUNT.

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FAIL

Re: Espionage Act

It contributed significantly to her losing the election and putting Trump in the Whitehouse.

No harm you say ? O.o

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Re: @macjules A suprise?

>Clinton 's private mail server was primarily for Clinton business, not State Department business.

Let me fix that for you: ... primarily for MIXING Clinton business with State Department business.

Pay for play. Baksheesh. Mordida. The only difference between HRC and some clerk in India's equivalent of the Department of Motor Vehicles is the number of zeros on the end of the bribe.

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Mushroom

Re: A suprise?

WHAT??!!! He used AOL!!!! Well he should bloody well be run up to a yard arm for that!

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Even though it was wrong to use the server, the security risk of pence doing it was minor since he was only gov of a state and had limited access to sensitive material where as Hillary being head of state department, the 2nd most powerful person in the country pretty much besides the president did. She had access to top level national secrets and classified information. Both were wrong but Clinton's is worse give the level of access in to sensitive material she had and sent using that server.

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Stop

Apples and Oranges

Even though it was wrong to use the server, the security risk of pence doing it was minor

Yes. Also, Pence had a government email account and he used it. As a state governor, Pence had limited access to classified material and most of that was financial records.

Hillary, on the other hand, ONLY had a personal email account and NO government email account. As Sec of State she had access to the most privileged state secrets, many of which were critical to the national security of the U.S. and allies. It's not the same.

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Boffin

Re: Apples and Oranges

Pence had no access to classified materials. He didn't hold a security clearance.

He had access to confidential material.

Bit of a big difference.

But yes, we're in violent agreement. :-)

Oh and lets not forget the perjury charges because Hillary signed certain documents that she understood her obligations on how to handle classified material. (Same for her staff)

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What's more important -

1. this arse-piece used a personal email account for business email (and AOL..wow..u couldn't make it up)

2. said arse-piece believes world is 6000 year old and was created literally in 7 days by a magical invisible fairy, gays can be electric-shocked straight and women should be jailed for having abortions.

It's like picking on hitler for having shit hair cut.

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Boffin

@Stu

I think you are clouding the issue.

Pence for all of his questionable religious beliefs are his right. We have this thing called Freedom of Religion, where as the UK has an official state church (CoE) and still there are fights between Christians. (Catholics and Protestants )

As to AOL... you're showing your age. Several other key leaders have had AOL accounts which also have been hacked.

Oh and I call Goodwin on you.

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Re: @Stu

Gumby, it's Godwin, damn it!

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Re: Apples and Oranges

I believe he did hold a clearance. It most likely not top secret though, but secret.

Why, because as governer he is in some control over the local national guard. Thus how those units are dispatched is a secret level message, but has to be passed to the governor.

Thus access to "confidential material".

As for Clinton, the Department of States mail servers were known to already be compromised.

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Joke

Re: @Stu

>Gumby, it's Godwin, damn it!

Calling you a nazi for spelling would be in bad taste here, I think. :)

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@Jake Re: @Stu

Yeah, you're right.

Typo on my part.

I was actually around when this 'law' was first created back in the USENET days.

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Re: Apples and Oranges

Its a on need-to-know basis for governor security clearances. But they go through a long drawn out process like the rest of us the citizens, unlike the President, house and senate. Honestly, it no surprise why there are sooo many leaks, having people that are not trained or vetted properly. And of course, virtually have no consequences.

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Re: @Jake @Stu

Apparently you don't go back to 1982 ... Gawd/ess, has it really been 35 years?

Out of curiosity, did anyone still reading this thread STR?

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Re: Apples and Oranges

> Thus access to "confidential material".

"Confidential material" does not necessarily mean "material having a security level 'CONFIDENTIAL' "

As governor, he was privy to things like personnel disciplinary actions, ongoing contract negotiations, the financial statements of companies doing business with the state which required confidentiality agreements, etc.

The emails withheld from public disclosure more than likely this,rather the NG troop movements :-).

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Re: @Stu

"Pence for all of his questionable religious beliefs are his right. We have this thing called Freedom of Religion, where as the UK has an official state church (CoE) and still there are fights between Christians. (Catholics and Protestants )"

Yeah, the US doesn't discriminate against certain religions. Apart from Islam, of course.

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Re: Apples and Oranges

You also need to consider that it was *illegal* for Pence to use his state government email for personal email. That there was some spillover between political and state emails is almost guaranteed in such situations. Even if Pence obeyed all the rules, there's the case where a donor might email the governor's personal email for some assistance with bureaucratic red tape down the road.

And to compare that to Clinton's situation is laughable. We already know that Clinton was required by law to turn over *all* work related emails, yet she culled numerous emails that were obviously work related from the cache she turned over and that were only recovered by the FBI getting them from other sources not inside the government. She was actively trying to make sure that none of her political emails were subject to FOIA by running her own filter, and she violated the law by not turning over all the email that she was legally obliged to do. Pence has no such similar intentional violation of Indiana laws.

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The question we need answering

Did any of his republican friends offer to send any money when "he" emailed to say he had been mugged?

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Joke

Re: The question we need answering

No.

They were waiting till they got the call begging them to take him back.

Oh wait, that was Tim Kane who was forced to sit with the Republicans during Trump's speech to a combined Congress just earlier in this week.

My Bad.. All those politicians seem to look and act alike.

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Indiana

Sorry for the correction. Governor of Indiana. Indianapolis is a city with an interesting speedway.

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Facepalm

Re: Indiana

Dude!

Have you been to Indiana?

Seriously outside of Indianapolis its almost all farm lands. Of course across the bridge from Chicago, you do have a couple of casinos and strip clubs.

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FAIL

Fail on El Reg's part.

I would expect this from a typical Mainstream Media rag, not from a technical site like El Reg.

Clearly there is a major difference between Pence and Clinton's case and the only reason this is making any sort of news is that its getting closer to the DoJ and the FBI to do a real investigation in to Clinton.

To start with... Pence used a personal AOL account. Similar to what John Kerry did and other politicians. I'm sure if we were able to subpoena all of the email accounts used by Congressmen, we'll see a lot of out of channel communication. Unlike Kerry, Pence didn't have access to classified material, nor communicate with Hillary Clinton on a classified topic.

Also its important to point out that Pence had and primarily used an official state email account for most of his official communication.

Then we have Hillary Clinton.

1) She didn't use a personal account. She set up herself a personal server.

2) Said server was used for ALL of her communication. She lacked any sort of .gov email address.

3) Clinton illegally transmitted and retained classified material on said server.

4) Clinton lied about her server.

5) All the while she kept mum about her server she was instructing her staff to refrain from using a personal email account, not to mention she terminated an ambassador to Kenya for using his own personal email account.

There's more, but I think I made some key points as to the differences.

And the investigation led by the FBI was severely hampered and thwarted by the DOJ by not allowing a Grand Jury to be en paneled which meant that they could only ask questions and not use the force of a subpoena. In order to get some to talk, they were given full blanket immunity to those involved.

To be clear, Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton however did.

And if anyone wants to claim otherwise because Comey didn't call for her to be indicted, post election during the NFL playoffs, the FBI released 30+ emails between Clinton and Sidney Blumenthal, her shadow agent. In these emails there were discussions containing classified material. (Including Top Secret SigInt).

Now that alone is enough to kick of an indictment because its also a known fact that Israel, Russia and China had hacked his email account. Not to mention that's how the world found out about Clinton's private server.

Again, big difference between Pence, as Governor not breaking any laws and Clinton and her staff who broke enough laws and counts to spend the rest of her life in prison if convicted.

A fail on El Reg for sloppy reporting.

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Abject and total fail on your part

You *do not know* what Pence emailed using his personal email service.

He, the operators of his email server - and the group that hacked into it - are the only people who might.

He demanded that Clinton's use of a personal email service for Government business be investigated by the FBI.

Pence's use of his own personal email service for Government business also be investigated by the FBI.

There is no difference here. Both breached their duty, both must be investigated and, if anything is found, prosecuted.

In fact, so far we know that a great many, possibly a majority of US officials have used personal email services.

Clinton is the only one who has been investigated, and it was found that she had no case to answer.

Unless you are willing to subject your own side to such investigation, you are a pure, unadulterated hypocrite.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Abject and total fail on your part

We do know, or at least everything that has not been restricted because of confidential information said to be contained.

Pence has co-operated and has released all his emails.

He has NOT deleted and then scrubbed his account

He has NOT lied under oath about the content and release of said emails

He has NOT defied subpoenas to release his emails

Clinton may well have been investigated and not prosecuted, but not because there was no case to answer. Clinton was never going to be prosecuted by a Democrat controlled DOJ, and after the totally improper airfield meeting with Bill Clinton, the then head of the DOJ left the decision (improperly) in the hands of the FBI. The FBI then invented some new law that somehow attached intent to a law that specifically excluded intent and only required negligence. So the FBI was negligent but didn't mean to be....and given that Clinton did show intent with her deletion and wiping that was indeed a strange decision...so can we say whitewash, and in copious quantities.

She's still guilty of perjury and of ignoring a subpoena. And independent prosecutor would have no hesitation indicting Clinton and her aides on perjury and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

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Re: Fail on El Reg's part.

If you wouldn't expect this from El Reg, you can't have been around here very long. Or you've got a very selective memory.

And if you would have expected it from a "typical Mainstream Media rag", I can only assume you've got a very strange idea of what those look like, too. For your information:

Here is the Guardian's coverage

Here is the BBC's

Here is the "failing New York Times".

All of which go out of their way to make the same points you made.

My guess is that your only exposure to "Mainstream Media" is what various probably-right-wing tools tell you they're saying.

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@Richard 12 Re: Abject and total fail on your part

Unlike Clinton, Pence didn't delete his emails. In fact he turned them over.

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Veti Re: Fail on El Reg's part.

Son, you need to dig a bit deeper because the whole Clinton thing has been going on for over a year.

Many have done amazing contortions to bend over backwards for Clinton.

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Facepalm

Re: Fail on El Reg's part.

Mainstream Media rag

Conspiracy theory…

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