back to article Modular dud drags LG to first loss in six years

You’re an investor in LG: do you want the bad news or the even worse news? The bad news is that the under-par performance of LG’s mobile business caused the giant chaebol to post its first loss in six years. The worse news? Executives, to reverse LG’s fortunes, are betting on er, Android smartwatches and um, a Chevy electric …

  1. Goldmember

    TKFKALG

    The Kompany Formerly Known As Lucky Goldstar?

    1. Dabooka

      Re: TKFKALG

      Beat me to it

  2. Steve Todd

    All electric Bolt?

    It's all electric already, with the claimed 238 mile range. They might be contracted to make the battery packs for Chevrolet, which should make them a fair bit of cash.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "TKFKALG* is pinning its hopes on American car design. It has announced a partnership with Chevrolet to produce an all-electric version of the Bolt, a car that claims to have a 383km (238 miles) range on a charge."

    The motor was designed by GM, but it's built by LG and the vast majority of the powertrain and other electronic systems were (at least partly) designed and built by LG. Lots of LG in that car, maybe as part of a sweet deal on the cell pricing. The current CEO of LG Chem Power was the Director Energy Storage Systems at GM, then moved through Atieva and AVL before getting the LG position. LG wants to built up an automotive division.

    LG isn't pinning its hopes on the Bolt, given that it has contracts to supply batteries with multiple manufacturers, Renault, Ford and Fiat-Chrysler included.

    Also the car doesn't claim anything. The 238 miles is the EPA AER, which is the calculated range following the test procedure. Unlike NEDC ratings, the EPA ratings are actually close to reality. Just expect swings depending on climate and time of year. So far, reported ranges are holding up well.

  4. Your alien overlord - fear me

    Pinning their future on a smartwatch? In other news, LG filed for bankruptcy in late 2017.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Don't believe that horseshit, LG are selling plenty of products,. They are the only people mass producing OLED TVs and now supplying their own market and for Sony 2017 OLEDs and Panasonic too.

      That android watch and car statement is just pure clickbait trash "journalism", direct from the king of internet trash "journalism". He is pretty much an internet laughing stock, if it's not DAB, it's his inability to differentiate android and Google play, or he bizzare love of Windows Phone or some other brown envelope product.

  5. DrXym

    Modular was always a silly idea

    It's one thing to make a device *serviceable* to prolong its useful life and make it easier to repair.

    But selling modules consumer is supposed to switch in is a recipe for failure. Why would someone buy an expensive phone + module to do what they get from another phone for less money?

    1. Triggerfish

      Re: Modular was always a silly idea

      I don't think maybe modular is a to bad idea, although I do struggle to think what it could be used for, it looks like motorola have a projector add on for theirs.

      But if you had a look at the LG, the way it did it was a bit ropey. I had a look at one in the shop and first though was thats gonna break all to easily.

      1. Dave 126

        Re: Modular was always a silly idea

        It seems to me that what puts people off buying a modular system is their lack of faith that the system will be supported in the future, and the limited number of modules available.

        Both doubts could be answered by Android phone vendors getting together and agreeing on a standard connector that serves power, data and means of securing the module to the phone / tablet (some hope though - they never worked to the same spec for headsets with wired buttons, FFS). LG had a DAC module and a camera module... the market for either was limited, even more so if owning a particular model of phone was a prerequisite. The market is far bigger if a module fits most Android phones.

        Phones today are already modular to a degree - you can connect an external DAC / amp to the phone's USB socket. Sony had a line of screen-less cameras that worked with phones, as well as a stereo condenser microphone that only worked with some Sony models. What these add-ons are not is elegant. For some add-ons (a battery case, a bigger speaker, a specialist camera) it would be better for them to add only to the phone's thickness and not add to its length or width - which any module using a USB connector would do. I like the look (I haven't tried it in person) of Moto's phone module connector on the rear of their handsets.

        Nokia of course implemented a mechanical fixing system years ago - on both sides of their phones were two triangular indentations. These were used for car docks, and also for 3rd party joysticks for getting better Snake high scores. The 6210 had exposed rails for data and power at the base of the handset, and they continued inside the battery compartment so that a new battery module could also add Bluetooth.

        1. Charles 9

          Re: Modular was always a silly idea

          "Android phone vendors getting together and agreeing on a standard connector that serves power, data and means of securing the module to the phone / tablet"

          Will never happen for both practical and "political" reasons:

          Practical reason #1: Dimensions differ too much. The ONLY reason you consistenly see iPhone accessories is because only ONE company makes them and makes them to a limited number of sizes, so aftermarket people have a manageable number of targets. You won't get that with Android device makers since they NEED to differentiate themselves to make their brands stand out. Not to mention you can have phones ranging in size from a compact 3.5" to the big 6+" phablets (I own a Note 4 myself). The size range is just too varied.

          "Political" reason #1: Because the brands are competing with each other, they feel they need to be the next Apple and be in control of the walled garden. In such a cutthroat environment, cooperation is eyed suspiciously as an attempt to stab in the back, leaving you with the Prisoner's Dilemma.

          1. Dave 126

            Re: Modular was always a silly idea

            >Practical reason #1: Dimensions differ too much.

            That's not an insurmountable problem, engineering wise. The add-on doesn't have to be the exact same size as the host phone. The Moto system uses magnets to connect, and doesn't require the add-on to clamp onto the side of the phone, so size isn't critical.

            >"Political" reason #1: Because the brands are competing with each other, they feel they need to be the next Apple and be in control of the walled garden.

            Agreed, it ain't easy to get them to cooperate. In countries where Apple has a large market share though, the Android vendors have scope for growing their shared pie. A vibrant ecosystem of pop-on batteries, ports, cameras, keyboards, speakers etc would give the customer another reason not to buy Apple. So even if the consumer has gone with your rival Samsung this time, they might consider your phone next time because it will work with their modules. Seriously, the fact that you walk into any supermarket or electronics store and see a range of 'Made for iPhone' headphones can't have hurt Apple. As an Android user, I found it frustrating that cable-mounted buttons never worked as they should, and that there has never been an agreed way of doing Android headsets. It was just a poorer user experience.

            1. Charles 9

              Re: Modular was always a silly idea

              "Agreed, it ain't easy to get them to cooperate. In countries where Apple has a large market share though, the Android vendors have scope for growing their shared pie. A vibrant ecosystem of pop-on batteries, ports, cameras, keyboards, speakers etc would give the customer another reason not to buy Apple. So even if the consumer has gone with your rival Samsung this time, they might consider your phone next time because it will work with their modules."

              But that means no lock-in. Apple wins because of lock-in and "The Midas Touch". If people can buy your brand and NOT buy your brand next, you lose long-term because there's no brand loyalty, and brand loyalty is what they want and, frankly, what they NEED to compete with Apple.

              1. Dave 126

                Re: Modular was always a silly idea

                >If people can buy your brand and NOT buy your brand next, you lose long-term because there's no brand loyalty, and brand loyalty is what they want and, frankly, what they NEED to compete with Apple.

                Add-ons that are proprietary to your brand (and thus give the consumer no reason to believe the system will be supported in future) are not that great an inducement to buy your brand. The only way that add-ons can be an inducement is if the consumer knows they can be used across handsets in the future.

                It only works for Apple because users are already invested in iOS (through apps, and familiarity with iOS, etc) and the selection of 3rd party iPhone peripherals is of a critical size (and the user sees no downside in an add-on only working with iPhones). Apple's market share doesn't fluctuate wildly year-on-year, so developers and users know where they are.

                Let's take apps as an analogy. Android phone vendors benefit from their being a large selection of apps that attract or tie the user to Android, but not to HTC, Sony or LG specifically. Whilst some people do exhibit brand loyalty, many Android users simply pick the best phone from any vendor for their needs every couple of years - and much can change in two years.

                It is better to have a small chance a will buy your brand than no chance at all.

                1. Charles 9

                  Re: Modular was always a silly idea

                  "Add-ons that are proprietary to your brand (and thus give the consumer no reason to believe the system will be supported in future) are not that great an inducement to buy your brand. The only way that add-ons can be an inducement is if the consumer knows they can be used across handsets in the future."

                  And cross-brand add-ons can be a DISincentive to buy your brand. People can DEFECT. Ergo, if proprietary add-ons are a sink and cross-brand add-ons can encourage defections, the only practical option is the one we see now: practically no add-ons at all.

                  "It is better to have a small chance a will buy your brand than no chance at all."

                  And they do that by encouraging lock-in. That's why most Android phone makers don't produce stock (especially Samsung). Those that do cater to a niche clientele.

              2. DrXym

                Re: Modular was always a silly idea

                It's not about having lock-in or not. Modularity is just a dumb idea. Google tried it with Project Ara which is now on ice.

                Just think of the complexities of making every component of a phone interchangeable. It means you have to specify the dimensions of each component, that each component needs a pinout, bus, voltage so it can talk with what it connects to. It needs rails and connectors to slide and lock into place. The phone OS isn't going to magically recognise some random component so either all the drivers are baked in or they are somehow fetched.

                At the very least it means a bulkier phone (for all the plastic, rails, pins) and jankier software. And 2 or 3 years down the line Ara 2 would turn out and wouldn't be backwards compatible for some reason or another, or backwards compatibility would impede what modules could do even further.

                It's a lot of mess and complexity to achieve something that nobody wanted in the first place. There are enough phones out there to suit everyone. Having a device that could be built up to something that can be bought for less money makes no sense.

                I'm all for serviceable phones however. I think LG deserve plaudits for the serviceability of the G7 but not the modules.

                1. Charles 9

                  Re: Modular was always a silly idea

                  "It's a lot of mess and complexity to achieve something that nobody wanted in the first place. There are enough phones out there to suit everyone. Having a device that could be built up to something that can be bought for less money makes no sense."

                  Why doesn't it make sense for phones but it can for laptops and the like (think M.2)?

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Why it works in cameras

                    Look at the prices for the camera components like lenses etc. and tell me if you think ANYONE is willing to pay prices even remotely like that for cell phone modules? Sure, a top quality zoom lens is never going to be cheap, but a lot of it is because of low manufacturing volumes. You can keep a camera for 10-20 years, how long you gonna keep your cell phone 'back' for?

                    There would never be a "vibrant market" for stuff like this because it is always going to be a niche market. Anything people REALLY want in a phone in large enough numbers will be built in to some Android phone somewhere. But even that has proven to not have volumes capable of sustaining them, like the ones that had projectors built in or with a properly sized camera on them. Even people's favorite whipping horse, big batteries, have pretty much disappeared from the market. Why build a phone that comes with a giant battery when you can buy a battery case and use it with any phone that it fits?

                    There's also a chicken and egg problem. Who wants to invest in this ridiculous concept when it might be abandoned at any minute when it isn't profitable? I doubt LG feels bad about stranding the few thousand customers who bought modules for the G5.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @Dave 126

          No, what puts people off it is that it is a stupid fucking idea. Setting a standard for interoperability between vendors doesn't help, and even if you did no one would build to that standard because it would inherently limit the form factor of the phones they produce and make them more like those of their competition.

          1. Dave 126

            Re: @Dave 126

            >No, what puts people off it is that it is a stupid fucking idea.

            Well, it works quite well for cameras! But seriously, do you mean the idea of modular designs are stupid, or the implementations that you have seen?

            The Moto Mod system uses magnets to attach add-ons, so attached mod wouldn't have to be the exact same size as the phone. That said, most phones I see are roughly the same size these days.

            I've seen a lot of comments of The Reg over the years about wanting physical phone keyboards - a magnetic connector would be a good way of delivering such a thing. Physical keyboards can fail, so having it replaceable would be a good idea. Also, having it 'pop-off' if dropped will save the phone and keyboard some stress. And hey, maybe you have the keyboard attached when your work expects you to return emails, but you leave the keyboard off when you're wearing jeans. Further more, you could have a QWERTY, or a Blackberry style keyboard, or heck, even a chorded keyboard.

            It would appear that people (not necessarily Reg readers!) at large do like docks (I've seen shitloads for iPhones and iPods over the years, though fewer now that people use Chromecast or Sonos) and a common connector would allow for docking when at a desk, as well as speakers, extended batteries when on the move.

            There have also been inelegant ways of attaching game controllers to mobile phones... a magnetic data/power connector would help that. Again, there is no one single reason, no 'killer' app, for an standard connector, just lots of useful ones to suit individual people in different ways.

            Google's Project Ara never struck me as a sensible consumer product. LG's G5 always struck me as a little inelegant and unnecessary.

      2. Dave 126

        Re: Modular was always a silly idea

        >I don't think maybe modular is a to bad idea, although I do struggle to think what it could be used for, it looks like motorola have a projector add on for theirs.

        Moto have a projector, a battery pack, a loudspeaker add-on and a camera with zoom lens. If other phone and add-on makers could use the same system, the appeal of each module to limited number of people would be less of an issue.

        Personally, I'd like to attach a speaker to the back of my phone for when I'm pottering around the house listening to a podcast. However, many people wouldn't bother. Some people would have a genuine use for a thermal-imaging camera, or a high quality microphone set-up.

    2. Giles Jones Gold badge

      Re: Modular was always a silly idea

      So please tell me where I can get a phone with 4800mAH battery.Just because one company got the idea wrong doesn't invalidate it.

      I have a Moto Z with a clip on battery. This gives me enough battery life for about 2-3 days and makes the phone larger, but not bigger than an iPhone 3G. I personally loathe how phones are being made slimmer all the time to the detriment of usability and battery life, what use is your phone if the battery is dead?

      The main issue with modularity is definitely that the quality of the add ons can't be too great as they'll be useless for the next phone you get.

  6. Dabooka

    RE: The G5

    When in the market I was tempted by one of these. The modular thing was clearly a gimmick (but I love a gimmick), but the overall cost was what put me off. Yes it was cheaper than Samsung handsets or an iThing, which I'd never have, but ever since having to use a Doogee X5 Pro I'm more than happy buying a far cheaper handset outright. Wileyfox Swift 2+ as it is.

    Flagships. Too expensive with not enough to warrant the layout, or the option of taking a ridiculously expensive contract even the brain-dead balk at.

    1. Youngone Silver badge

      Re: RE: The G5

      I can buy an LG V20 where I live, they are parallel imported.

      I won't however, because they cost about the same as an iPhone or Samsung S7.

      Shame really, if they were a bit cheaper they might be an option.

  7. Robert Sneddon

    Panasonic

    sells a ruggedised phone with add-on modules. It's a tech tool though, not consumer oriented -- if you want a laser barcode scanner or a real serial port on your phone you pay serious money for it.

  8. Red Bren

    I've got a G5

    I've never found a use for the gimmicky modular functionality, but I still like the phone and for me it was a better choice than the Samsung with the gimmicky curved screen and the buttons in the wrong place, the excess bloatware that can't be removed, and yet another app store that Samsung want you to sign up to.

  9. Paul Stimpson

    I have a G5 too

    I love my G5. I'm never going back to Samsung again. I found it really hard to find a phone because I wanted a memory card slot and that seems to be an unreasonable desire if you want a superphone these days. I also have the HiFi-Plus (audio DAC "Friend"). It is stunning, particularly when playing 96 kHz, 24-bit FLAC files. With the supplied set of headphones, it kicks the living poop out of my friend's Bose £300 APT-X bluetooth headset.

    Down side of the HiFi-Plus: It makes the phone about 6mm longer and it no longer fits in the case, hence the broken screen I just suffered when I dropped it unprotected. Also the battery consumption of the DAC and headphone amp are something else. Book figure is 220 mA and listening to music comes in at about 1% of the battery per song. Keeps your hands nice and warm in the winter though. The DAC shuts down when the headphones are unplugged and it doesn't appear to have a negative effect on the battery life when it's not being used.

    The phone UI is fast and fluid, with none of the crap and bloat that characterized my time with Samsung phones. It's an Android Nougat phone and has the new security features like optional boot locking to prevent the phone being hacked if someone finds it in a turned off state and tries to turn it on. The screen is excellent but a little fragile due to the curve at the top exposing the glass if you drop it. The fingerprint reader is fast, well-places and accurate. The three cameras are very good and the camera app is one of the most comprehensive I ever saw.

    My verdict: Highly recommended, would buy again.

  10. PeterM42
    FAIL

    Ever had an LG phone?

    Yes? - well I doubt you would ever buy another.

    1. Eponymous Bastard
      Coat

      Re: Ever had an LG phone?

      My LG G4 is by far and away the best Smartphone I have ever had and I have owned Samsungs, a Motorola and two HTCs. The LG smartwatch I have is still working after over 2 years of daily use. Maybe you were unlucky. My Samsung S4's on/off switch failed after less than two years and the other one I owned suffered badly from dust ingress. I like to be able to stick a micro SDXC card in my 'phone and replace the battery if I want to. Have a lovely weekend.

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