back to article Is your Windows 10, 8 PC falling off the 'net? Microsoft doesn't care

With more and more Windows 10 users losing internet and network connectivity – thanks to a dodgy software update that broke DHCP – you'd have thought Redmond would be on the ball with a cunning fix. Sadly not: the only official advice is to go away and reboot your PC. “Some customers have reported difficulties connecting to …

It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

This new patching model isn't working out too well for the end users, is it? I wonder if the benefits outweigh anything negative, from Microsoft's perspective, whatever those benefits might be?

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

I don't do Windows support, but if I did I'd suggest setting a static address. People would do well to learn how to take control of their DNS anyway.

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

That would probably work well for home users, with limited devices on their LAN and the privileges to set networking on the machine.

In business environments, there are a lot of devices requiring IP addresses, which DHCP makes manageable without much human intervention. Very often, usually and ideally almost always, end users in business don't have the privileges in Windows to manually set a static IP, so it comes down to IT support to go do it for them. It's a lot of grunt work for small teams and because of the nature of it, being networking, can't be done remotely.

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Joke

@Gert

Are you kidding? It's working like a charm and the end results are even better than expected.

You see: the whole underlying reasoning here goes much deeper. All those users who fell off the Internet? It's easy: they shouldn't have bashed Windows 8 and Windows 10 and kept on using it. If you hate Windows 10 you don't use it. Everyone knows how to downgrade to Windows 7, it's easy! (please look at the icon! ;)). So if you continue to use Windows 10 and make Microsoft look bad you're a hypocrite.

And so, to protect us from the hypocrites, Microsoft has finally launched their latest product: Microsoft HypoWay. It artificially scans your Windows environment for any back traces of Windows and Microsoft negativity and if it finds some then your Internet connection will be throttled for an X amount of time. That will teach you not to hurt an already fragile business model by spreading bad rumours!

So obviously Microsoft won't "fix" this because there's nothing to fix, this isn't a bug: it's the latest feature! And what an amazing one it is, Microsoft Answers has never been so relaxed as it is now!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Java project to work on. It's going to be amazing: we're building a desktop application which has web based support (Java EE through Tomcat) for specific features. It's going to be exciting: Enterprise JavaBeans to support the JavaBeans inside my application. I like c# and ASP.NET a lot as well, but this interaction between the desktop and a web service is where Java can seriously have the upper hand in my opinion. And also... eouwiofpunj128739@&*()@

<connection reset by peer>

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

That would probably work well for home users, with limited devices on their LAN and the privileges to set networking on the machine.

Sounds like you thought I meant a static IP rather than a static address for DNS. There is really no reason to have your DNS continually reset. Use the same one all the time regardless of the size of your network. Not changing is what I meant by static.

All the downvotes I got up there are presumably from people not thinking I meant static DNS address. Not sure why anybody would think that though, as it doesn't make sense.

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

I'm not sure how setting anything in DNS is going to help a machine get on the network in the first place.

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

This sounds like you don't understand how useful DHCP is or what it does.

DNS is not "continually reset by DHCP", it is only changed if you move networks or if the DHCP server settings have been changed *and the DHCP lease time has expired*.

If, like me, your machine is used on multiple networks, a static DNS is a pain.

Secondly, as one of the workarounds for this "issue" is to set a static IP address, its not surprising that people have misread the comment.

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@ShelLuser

"eouwiofpunj"

Do you use a Dvorak layout?

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Re: @ShelLuser

Not to mention all the emails you keep getting from e.g. VirginMedia security services when they pick up your DNS traffic at their gateway telling you that "you appear to be using a non-VirginMedia DNS. This can be a security risk..."

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

"This new patching model isn't working out too well for the end users, is it?"

Which end users. It's probably working out just fine for enterprise customers. They have all those alpha beta testers sorting out the bugs.

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

No, they have WSUS, which never works correctly and thus never releases the broken updates to the clients.... Technically its a win.... I think.

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Anonymous Coward

Not as farcial as the BBC advice

1) Reboot your PC.

2) If that does not fix your problem and you still do not have Internet Connectivity, then visit this webpage for further instructions ...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

"I'm not sure how setting anything in DNS is going to help a machine get on the network in the first place."

Quite. So for those who keep referring to DNS-related fixes, here's a worked example from a small office I informally support, and which was downgraded from Win7 to Win10 some months ago without my involvement:

Monday: everything performaing as expected for Win10 - Internet OK, wireless print/scanner OK.

Tuesday: no Internet, and also **no local wireless print/scanner**.

The printer/scanner does not require an internet connection.

Using the Win10 network troubleshooter leads nowhere useful, but Control Panel->Devices shows the hardwired NIC (connected to BT HH5 :() as disabled ?!

Hence no network (neither t'Internet nor local AP/router, and hence no wireless printer/scanner).

I manually enabled the NIC, and restarted the PC properly (not shutdown/fastboot). Normal service was resumed - interweb and print/scanner working as expected.

The facts, as I saw them.

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Devil

Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

static DNS: worst case, use 8.8.8.8 [should work everywhere the intarwebs is supported] - it's a freebie from google. [yeah they probably track it]

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

"static DNS: worst case, use 8.8.8.8 [should work everywhere the intarwebs is supported] - it's a freebie from google. [yeah they probably track it]"

Great plan.. now explain how I I access local resources by host names that don't resolve on the wider internet . Even some Wifi routers use DNS to redirect you to their setup page.

Come to think of it. One of my predecessors used to keep a company wide zone file for our parent company with resources we needed to access and even that turned into an maintainable mess.

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RW

Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

Sounds like you thought I meant a static IP rather than a static address for DNS.

People not thinking I meant static DNS address.

If people are misconstruing what you wrote, then you need to work harder at writing without being vague and/or ambiguous.

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Re: Not as farcial as the BBC advice

"1) Reboot your PC.

2) If that does not fix your problem and you still do not have Internet Connectivity, then visit this webpage for further instructions ..."

Not quite as daft as it sounds since to be able to read that advice in the first place, the reader obviously has some sort of device capable of loading and displaying WWW pages. Sorry to spoil your fun :-)

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

Muppetry! Its DHCP, not DNS, that MacroShaft hasa stuffed, and setting static addresses willy-nilly may bork other devices like printers which use DHCP, if you end up with duplicate IP addresses.

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Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

"setting static addresses willy-nilly may bork other devices like printers which use DHCP, if you end up with duplicate IP addresses."

Does your router not allow you to specify a range for DHCP, thus reserving the rest for static IP addresses?

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Anonymous Coward

specify a range for DHCP

"Does your router not allow you to specify a range for DHCP, thus reserving the rest for static IP addresses?"

The one I've got now certainly does, but the ISP-supplied one (BT HomeHub, sorry) probably didn't, and even if it did, Joe Public usually doesn't want to be playing network admin.

Come back Voyager 2100 (or conceptual equivalent).

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kb
Facepalm

Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

It works perfectly fine for MSFT's customers...which are those that pay the monthly fee for Windows 10 Enterprise. Oh you didn't get the memo? They fired pretty much all of their QA and testing teams right before the launch of Win 10, now the alpha and beta tester is YOU if you have Win 10 Insider, Home or Pro respectively.

Basically Insider is the alpha build, Pro and Home are the early beta (Home) and late beta (Pro because you can delay updates) and the actual RTM finished product? Sorry but that is only a rental, you have to pay every month for Win 10 Enterprise if you actually want a non beta OS from MSFT now...or stick with Win 7 as many of us did.

Isn't it sad that they replaced the sweaty monkey, whose idea of innovation was to ape Apple, with Nutella whose idea of innovation is to ape Google and like the monkey do a p*ss poor job of it? Lets just hope he gets fired soon enough and they get someone in there that realizes there is still good money to be made by building a quality OS that people actually want to use.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?

"there is still good money to be made by building a quality OS that people actually want to use."

The vast majority of people with computers (visible computers and invisible ones) don't think about using an OS, they think about getting a job done in a simple and reliable and affordable way.

Surfing the web, doing email, that kind of stuff, doesn't need Windows and consequently people have been ignoring Windows in droves. Unfortunately the current alternatives (Android, iThings) come with their own personal disadvantages.

What's next?

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Windows

"Cumulative updates" strikes again

Isn't it about time Vole realised that bundling ten thousand "updates" into a single package makes breakage more likely, and worse, difficult to avoid, diagnose and fix?

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Re: "Cumulative updates" strikes again

"Isn't it about time Vole realised that..."

Hehe, had to look up that one:

" any of various small rodents (Microtus and related genera) that typically have a stout body, rather blunt nose, and short ears, ..."

Vole~=Microtus~=Microsoft

The part about a stout body, blunt nose and short ears also fits well! ;-)

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Re: "Cumulative updates" strikes again

"difficult to avoid"

They do understand that one. Why do you think they're doing it?

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Linux

Stuff like this...

Is the whole reason for me to stay away from Windoze 8 and higher...

It's 7 till 2020 and after that... see icon ------------------------------------------->

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Re: Stuff like this...

Unfortunately Microsoft is forcing more and more people to use the Windows8.2=10 spyware crap. Soon Visual Studio will run on Windows10 only. The Kinect SDK doesn't work on Windows7 and they want you to use Windows8.x

It is only getting worse. Microsoft deserves to go bankrupt.

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Devil

Re: Stuff like this...

"Until there's anything useful from Redmond, good luck.

Many a true word spoken in jest.

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Re: Stuff like this...(@ Joerg)

"Soon Visual Studio will run on Windows10 only. The Kinect SDK doesn't work on Windows7..."

Surely these Microsoft policies will help them in selling those two products.

Yeah, like fuck!

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Re: Stuff like this...

"Soon Visual Studio will run on Windows10 only." Your proof?

https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/productinfo/vs2017-system-requirements-vs

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Re: Stuff like this...

Windows 7 will enjoy the same long lifespan as XP

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Devil

Re: Stuff like this...

@malle. CentOS 6 and Windows 7 maintenance support ends at about the same time. So, by the time you're shifting from Win7 to Linux, the prescient people will be shifting from Linux to FreeBSD to escape systemd's penguin fenestration.

And, by then, there'll be a better Beastie icon on here...>

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Re: Stuff like this...

> It is only getting worse. Microsoft deserves to go bankrupt

And yet MSFT was 55 a year ago and is 62 now, and for comparison perhaps, AAPL was 113 and is 114 now, Alphabet 748/789. MS seem to have done better than those similar, large corps.

Since the people that matter only care about the above numbers (and where they might go), I doubt they will go bankrupt.

As I have said before, as a user, I would like to see more love for the mobile platform but I can see why they just want to make loads of money, it is their job.

Obviously, they should also consider whether they make loads of money in five years time too but I think that they think they will, despite what folks here say.

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Re: Stuff like this...

It's 7 till 2020 and after that... see icon

I am already there, it's warm and friendly place to be (mostly). Looking forward to see you here :)

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Re: Stuff like this...

What?? You mean XP has been replaced by some new release? Nobody ever tells me anything...

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Joke

Re: Stuff like this...

"And yet MSFT was 55 a year ago and is 62 now, and for comparison perhaps, AAPL was 113 and is 114 now, Alphabet 748/789. MS seem to have done better than those similar, large corps."

Is this dog years or just Microsoft filecopy time estimates?

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@cambsukguy

"as a user, I would like to see more love for the mobile platform"

As a user, I'd like to see much LESS attention to the mobile platform, it's seriously screwing up desktop functionality. Half the design failures of Windows 10, and most of the design failures of Windows 8, would have never occurred if MS weren't trying to push this crap about "unifying" desktop and mobile.

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Re: Stuff like this...(@ Joerg)

I've got MS Visual Studio Code running on Linux Mint.

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Linux

Re: Stuff like this...

I'm on Mint Linux but I still have to go back to Windows for a couple of things until I get the Linux versions sorted.

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FAIL

Re: Stuff like this...

"Soon Visual Studio will run on Windows10 only." Your proof?

https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/productinfo/vs2017-system-requirements-vs

But that link is proof of what was said. Do you see Vista on that list? XP? 9x? No? So, assuming this nightmare that is MS continues, some time after 8.x support officially ends (mainstream support ends on January 9, 2018 according to MS) 8 will drop off the supported OS list, leaving only 10. If MS renegs on their promise/threat to only update 10 and not release a new version of Windows, logically it must eventually be the only one supported.

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Anonymous Coward

If something breaks in Linux due to an update you have so many options to work around, fix or revert. You have no choice with Microsoft other than wait for them to pull their finger out of their ass and get their shit together.

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Sore point this, as ever since I upgraded to the latest Ubuntu LTS my network interface drops out whenever I make more than 6 ssh connections and ssh performance randomly falls off a cliff.

It's not just me. For the others that reported it the Linux community is just as useless as Microsoft, recommending restarting the network layer.

I could roll back Windows to 7 just as I could roll back Ubuntu to 12. Both are a massive pain. Both result in nagware urging an upgrade.

The point is that on support it's ba no-score draw but I expect Microsoft will fix their issue within the week. The Linux one, probably won't be.

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Anonymous Coward

Uh, you can uninstall updates under Windows 10, and there is a workaround (netsh winsock reset).

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Re: "you can uninstall updates"

I do believe the article mentioned that, and I also think that just about everyone under the Sun knows that at well.

The issue is not being able to uninstall updates, the issue is which bloody one to uninstall.

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FAIL

Options

I always create at least one extra unused account on Windows or Linux.

On Linux I also add another Desktop, as logging in with a different one to fix a broken one is easier than CLI, but you only have one Desktop or CLI on Windows. Also remove or re-install (sudo apt-get etc) of a broken thing is simple on Linux CLI compared to Windows CLI, if you have even a phone to look up t'interwebs for the commands.

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Edit: [@AC "Uh, you can uninstall updates under Windows 10, and there is a workaround (netsh winsock reset)."]

That's a lot of floor walking for IT, going to each and every workstation, getting a privileged command prompt and typing that, was kind of a point I made earlier.

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Wow, risky response, even though it is reasonable.

Nice to see you were not eviscerated though, a good sign.

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@Gert

OP: "If something breaks in Linux due to an update you have so many options to work around, fix or revert."

AC: "Uh, you can uninstall updates under Windows 10, and there is a workaround (netsh winsock reset)."

GL: "That's a lot of floor walking for IT"

In this case there's a lot of walking if network doesn't function. If a Linux box has its network disconnected you would equally need to use Adidas networking.

The OP was speaking in general terms ("if something breaks"). Therefore you could normally uninstall the offending update via WSUS, Powershell or via a remote connection - just like you would with Linux.

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If something breaks in Linux due to an update you have so many options to work around, fix or revert. You have no choice with Microsoft other than wait for them to pull their finger out of their ass and get their shit together.

Yes. I've recently had to work with win7 on a customer case and every now and then wlan goes down. Start the 'troubleshooter', watch a few minutes of indefinite 'progressbar' 'progressing' and then eventually a diagnosis: 'something seems to be wrong, can't tell you what, do you want to see an online solution?'

Online solution?

THE FUCKING INTERNET CONNECTION IS DOWN!

Hilarious. Connection always comes up though after rebooting.

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@Mage Re: Options

To fix problems on Linux, I log in as root because it's so easy to change stuff when you're root. I gave root a really ugly colour scheme to make sure that I'm not tempted to use it too often.

Using an alternative desktop manager sounds like a good idea so I'll try that too.

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