back to article Build your Type 26 warships next year? Sure, MoD – now, about that contract...

BAE Systems hopes it will start cutting steel on Britain's new Type 26 warships next year – but the contract has not yet been signed, despite lots of positive spin from the Ministry of Defence this morning. So far, £1.9bn has been spent on the Type 26 programme according to BAE Systems, which included the killer line in its …

Facepalm

Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

see subject

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Black Helicopters

Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

Have the finished the aircraft?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/04/uk_may_buy_f35a_minister_wont_rule_out/

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

The shipyards in Scotland have - that's kind of the point of (announcing and re-announcing) the orders for offshore patrol vessels now and then the Type 26, to keep those shipyards working.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

Yes, planes are still on order though.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

Have the finished the aircraft?

Not yet. Queen Lizzy is afloat. There are several years between an aircraft carrier being floated and it being ready for sea trials. "Obscure Balkan Consort Subject" is still being assembled and is not afloat yet.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

that's kind of the point of (announcing and re-announcing) the orders for offshore patrol vessels now and then the Type 26, to keep those shipyards working.

Of course, if we actually had a long term military procurement strategy involving rolling and properly scheduled asset renewal to create a steady work programme for design and build, we'd not need this amateurish pissing around, and essentially unplanned infill orders like the batch 2 Rivers, and promises of orders sans contracts.

A similar approach for aircraft would have seen the RAF with a proper strike aircraft to replace Tornado by 2010, and with similar forethought a carrier variant would have been planned, the QE class carriers would have been built with a catapult, thus bypassing the whole F35 mess up.

Of course, it isn't just the Treasury and politicians at fault here. MoD are known for their incomptence (and the military for their persistent late changes), but the simple approach there is to tell them they can have the build of their toys started ONLY when they sign off a final design.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

My guess is that these ships will be built on the Clyde (Scot Nats depending) and not at Rosyth (on the Forth).

If the Scot Nats get their way( and vote to SCEXIT the UK) perhaps they will be built at Barrow alongside the new subs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

funny enough we were only talking about his over lunch as we watched some naval vessel coming in to Plymouth sound. It would have been cheaper to build the new carriers with catapults but they were designed out to save money! Hence the need for VSTOL and the whole F35 fiasco we have now. As you said they could designed a carrier replacement for the Tornado, procured off the self carrier aircraft, or spent a bit of money putting arrestor hooks on the Typhoon.

the type 23 is indeed old, designed after the Falklands, a mate of mine served on HMS Iron Duke (the lead ship) back in 1989

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

and base them at Devonport and Portsmouth along with the subs that have been moved from Devonport to Scotland

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

Not quite that simple as adding catapults and arrestor hooks. They would need a different propulsion system to generate the steam needed for the cats to work..

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

They would need a different propulsion system to generate the steam needed for the cats to work..

Correct. I still do not understand how did they manage to find an excuse for not being able to mount the arrestor hooks. Come on, this tech is as old as the aircraft carriers themselves. IT IS NOT rocket science.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

If the Scot Nats get their way( and vote to SCEXIT the UK) perhaps they will be built at Barrow alongside the new subs.

The Scot Nats are so deluded, they think they can get independence, still build the ships for R-UK and keep a couple for themselves while they are at it. In the words of the great lady "NO, NO, NO".

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

"putting arrestor hooks on the Typhoon"

I worked at BAe nearly 30 years ago and saw drawings back then of a modified EFA (still can't bring myself to call it the Typhoon) for landing on aircraft carriers. It had to have long undercarriage legs which made it look like it was landing on stilts. It also needed a beefed up fuselage to cope with the stopping forces through the arrestor hook. As I recall a big worry at the time were the modifications to cope with the corrosive effects of salt spray because the Germans had banned Cadmium plating.

Mind you I also saw proposals for modifications to fit Air-to-Ground munitions which were roundly rejected by the RAF at the time. Now look what is happening in Syria. Never say never.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

"They would need a different propulsion system to generate the steam needed for the cats to work."

IIRC the plan was to use electro-magnetic catapults instead of steam, but the technology wasn't (isn't) ready.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

"long term military procurement strategy involving rolling and properly scheduled asset renewal to create a steady work programme for design and build"

You are talking about SMART procurement introduced in the MOD in late 1990s / early 2000s.

All good talk, well meaning and sounded wonderfull.......till you came slap bang up against the Financial guys on both sides. Soon as you did, it all disintegrated into contracts, budgets and profits. The Financial Departments, and I assume behind them the Treasury, acted as if SMART procurement didn't exist. From my experience, lots of talk but not a thing changed.

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Re: Have they finished the aircraft carriers yet?

They planned to use electromagnetic catapults so wouldn't have needed the steam...

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Trollface

I wonder what currency will be specified for payment.

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Scottish groats, presumably if Sturgeon persuades Scotland to go their merry way.

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You never know, that may mean getting only one carrier and the second one being sold to China to build a floating "Hotel/Cazino" out of it.

Now, why the Hotel/Cazino is launching Su-33s.... That is a different story.

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Anonymous Coward

Bawbee

By then the Groat will be worth more than the plummeting pound.

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Coat

When we see the current ones on the Tamar

They have a big rotating ball at the top of the superstructure. We have therefore named them bollocks of death.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: When we see the current ones on the Tamar

Type45? One in along side at the moment not sure which one, probably broken down!

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Anonymous Coward

General Purpose Frigate

Couldn't help smiling when i saw that abbreviated to GPF

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historical Scottish home of Royal Navy shipbuilding

Where did you say?

Surely Chatham has that "historical" honor and they knocked out few more than Govan. At the current descending rate of defence spending the Royal Navy will soon be able afford only men-of-war so Chatham's heyday may soon come round again.

As for Govan, its about time British governments stopped subsidizing the ever ungrateful Scots, aircraft carriers when there are no aircraft, soon it will be type 26 when there are no sailors.

Did I hear that the Royal Navy is planning a show of strength with its aircraft carrier(s) I think they take turns with the French, by sailing round the Baltic with its launchers at the ready.

Hopeless military planning.

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Re: historical Scottish home of Royal Navy shipbuilding

The majority of surface ships since Fisher's time were built on the Clyde.

Do you want salt and vinegar for that chip on your shoulder about the Scots?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: historical Scottish home of Royal Navy shipbuilding

Though Fishers first project was built at Devonport and a lot of ships were built on the capacious yards of the Clyde ( Brown, Scotts, Fairfield, Beardmore etc), there did use to be more shipyards around UK besides those of the Clyde

Wallsend - Swan Hunter

Newcastle - Vickers

Birkenhead - Cammel Laird

Jarrow - Palmers

Belfast - Harland and Wolff

And of the post-WWII aircraft carriers HMS Eagle, Ark Royal, Hermes, Bulwark, Albion, Invincible, Illustrious, the other Ark Royal - none were built on Clyde

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Anonymous Coward

Re: historical Scottish home of Royal Navy shipbuilding

there did use to be more shipyards around UK besides those of the Clyde

But those were exterminated by repeated doses of Labour government. In fact, when you think about "Labour" and industry is like bleach and germs. We struggled to rebuild a once successful motor industry after it all got nationalised....and well, rail, aerospace, electricity, logistics even, water...

Funny how the peasants vote to be shafted by Hapmpstead liberals, time after time.

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Re: historical Scottish home of Royal Navy shipbuilding

In the early 1900s a fifth of all ships in the world were made on the River Clyde in Glasgow. Chatham? Wassat - another little England rant.

"British governments stopped subsidizing the ever ungrateful Scots" - elReg loves a stupid statement. Another little England special. The Scots have been subsidizing England while also being 'British' eh!

Can't wait to leave England to its tinpot navy and teeny tiny world presence/reputation. Yup - Scotland should leave us dumb Wanglanders to the mess we've created.

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All You Need To Know About The Type 31

's 5 better than the Type 26, innit?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: All You Need To Know About The Type 31

When are you standing for Parliament? Given that your level of analysis is far beyond anything from both front benches in the last 20years (in terms of MoD procurement, anyway), you should ....

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Joke

Re: All You Need To Know About The Type 31

The 31 is old hat but reliable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_31

but lasted longer than the 26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_26

Oh sorry, we aren't talking about railways.... see icon.

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Spin and secrecy in MoD

No surprise that this announcement (like countless before) has been led by spin!

The political imperative of needing to put a positive slant on everything the Government does or will do, irrespective of whether it is true or not, is the reason why spin has become the centrepiece of this Government’s communications strategy. And because Government has got a monopoly on inside information, it uses spin to divert attention away from the key issues that really matter and consequently, succeeds in supressing alternative views and criticism from those on the outside.

The Ministry of Defence is particularly apt at this dark art of spinning. Increasingly, there is a lack of trust in the claims made by MoD about its work and achievements. MoD is able to get away with blatant lies because it relies on spin as its primary tool to deflect criticism – reinforced by the weapon of secrecy.

Indeed, there is a massive gap in the minds of interested observers outside the Ministry of Defence such as those in the Treasury, the Cabinet Office, the National Audit Office, academic institutions, think tanks and the press & media on how it supposedly functions on a day-to-day basis, as depicted in official UK Government publications (which remain within the editorial control of MoD), and how it actually operates in reality.

In addition, the culture of intense secrecy within MoD has not only allowed its leadership to extend this discrepancy even further, but also conceal appallingly poor policy-making and huge failings in its defence procurement procedures, from select committees of the House of Commons – such as the Public Accounts Committee, Defence Select Committee and Public Administration & Constitutional Affairs Committee – severely undermining their parliamentary function of scrutinising the performance of MoD.

What’s more, MoD discourages free thought and self-criticism of its internal business processes, and is consequently completely reliant on outsiders to identify, and point out shortcomings in its defence procurement policy.

@JagPatel3 on twitter

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