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back to article Email proves UK boffins axed from EU research in Brexit aftermath

Following anecdotes of British scientists being axed from EU-funded projects, one academic has revealed actual evidence of UK boffins being dumped from Euro research efforts in the Brexit aftermath. Paul Crowther, interim head of Physics and Astronomy at the University of Sheffield, today leaked an email confirming colleagues …

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  1. nsld

    Is anyone surprised?

    Given the uncertainty of when, if and what will happen over our membership of the EU its hardly surprising is it?

    As for an investigation, that's a waste of resources as it's clear it's happening and why so what purpose will it serve apart from to show that those pesky experts that the rubbery faced shitgibbon Gove derided got it right (again).

    It's ok though we can use the £350,000,000 to cover it......

    81 19 Reply

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Boffin

      Re: Is anyone surprised?

      The email should have been released in full and unredacted. The bottom line is the Brexit will take years to implement, and dumping people now is just petty.

      But it is academia after all, where the politics are most vicious because the stakes are so low.

      32 14 Reply
      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Reply Icon
        Unhappy

        "But it is academia after all, where the politics are most vicious because the stakes are so low."

        IIRC roughly 2008-2015 the UK put £5.5Bn in the Science & Research pot for the EU.

        They got out £8.8Bn out.

        But hey maybe the UK Govt will increase that chunk of it's Science & Research budget 60% to compensate.

        20 3 Reply
      2. Raj
        Reply Icon

        Re: Is anyone surprised?

        There's nothing petty about it . Britons seem to fundamentally misunderstand the consequences of their actions . It's not business as usual until brexit formalities are done . Try telling your workplace you've specifically planned to leave at some future time that you intend to negotiate to your benefit. You'll be excluded from every future project, regardless of the lack of any plan to leave right away.

        35 11 Reply
        1. DavCrav
          Reply Icon

          Re: Is anyone surprised?

          "There's nothing petty about it . Britons seem to fundamentally misunderstand the consequences of their actions . It's not business as usual until brexit formalities are done . Try telling your workplace you've specifically planned to leave at some future time that you intend to negotiate to your benefit. You'll be excluded from every future project, regardless of the lack of any plan to leave right away."

          Except, the UK is still paying for it, so if we are out, you can stuff your bill up your arse, Brussels. I personally voted Remain, but if the EU wants to half throw us out before we are out then we should stop paying half of the bill.

          13 9 Reply
          1. Lars Silver badge
            Reply Icon
            Happy

            Re: Is anyone surprised?

            "if the EU wants to half throw us out before we are out". No, it's you who half throw yourself out. The reaction is common sense among individuals like with what happened to the sterling. So get on with it now, or skip it now. Don't fuck around with that Article 50 forever, it's no good for anybody.

            Some commentard seemed to be so happy with the fact that now it's the UK who decides when to "activate" the article. Quite funny, every EU member state has that right when ever they decide to, and no referendum is required in the rules.

            7 5 Reply
        2. razorfishsl
          Reply Icon

          Re: Is anyone surprised?

          Actually you seem to 'fundamentally' misunderstand what freedom is.

          Just because someone gives you cash with one hand then strips you of your freedoms with the other does not make it a benefit.

          You seem to completely gloss over the fact that the EU is being run by businesses by a bunch of totally unelected cronies, who's only goal is to completely strip each member state of any self-determination of their own future.

          14 15 Reply
        3. Sirius Lee
          Reply Icon

          Re: Is anyone surprised?

          Breath taking arrogance. A majority of people in Britain voted to leave the EU and they 'fundamentally misunderstand the consequence of their actions'. You mean they fundamentally disagree with you. There is a difference.

          This notion that Britain put in 5.5Bn and get 8.5Bn back is not relevant on its own. If British researchers are justifying the extra cash then they will continue to receive it. If it was just incentive money then its not a good use of capital and is unjustified. But does it seem likely that EU institutions are providing British researchers so much extra money for no good reason or is it because those researchers are able to provide an excellence and expertise needed by European research bodies? I like to think its because they are able to offer excellence and that, as with every other walk of life, excellence will continue to be required.

          As a software vendor selling the majority of our software to European buyers we've seen a 20% increase in revenue since the vote. 15% of that is because of currency movement. But the other 5%? Certainly not because buyers discriminate against Britain or British companies.

          Will there be losers as a result of Brexit? Yes, we hear lots of noise from those who stand to lose from the change in the status quo. But we don't hear from those taking advantage of the changes that are happening.

          12 7 Reply
          1. Just Enough
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            Re: Is anyone surprised?

            "But the other 5%?"

            The other 5% are people buying now rather than later. Because of afore-mentioned "currency movement" (nice euphemism you have there for the pound having crashed) , and because they don't know what other taxes/duties/red tape they'll have to negotiate once the UK leaves the EU.

            Your anecdotal figures demonstrate nothing because at present the UK is still a member of the EU, with all the benefits that still brings. They prove nothing about how it'll be once the UK leaves. Come back in 5 years time and tell us how great it all looks then.

            5 3 Reply
          2. Jess
            Reply Icon

            Re: we've seen a 20% increase in revenue since the vote

            Hardly surprising is it?

            All sorts of businesses will benefit during the transition, initially due to the currency, (but eventually that will become the norm as the increased costs find their way through.)

            As the actual exit comes nearer, people will be taking their last chance to get goods and services before everything gets more complex.

            Visitors who want to come one day will come before we leave rather than after, because things will be more complex after.

            Lots of EU headquarters will relocate back to the EU, creating work.

            Of course after it actually happens the economy will take a hit, but that will most likely be after the next election with the current government being re-elected on the strength of the temporary boom.

            Could this be one reason for the procrastination over article 50? Aligning the next election to arrive just before the pain arrives?

            (Note all this assumes leaving the EEA. If that doesn't happen, then everything will quickly return to normal once it is actually decided.)

            2 0 Reply
          3. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Is anyone surprised?

            > "I like to think its because they are able to offer excellence and that, as with every other walk of life, excellence will continue to be required."

            At the moment the UK receives a considerable amount of the EU's research funding (more than anyone else - Germany is 2nd). The concern is that if the effective 40% "funding top-up" currently being received from the EU is removed, that the UK government won't replace it (it's not an emotive subject for a large proportion of the population), with there being a historical under-investment in science by the government (I believe the UK has historically had the lowest spending on science & research of any of the G7 by a fair way).

            2 0 Reply
        4. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Is anyone surprised?

          " It's not business as usual until brexit formalities are done "

          If we are to be denied the benefits while still members and so entitled to fair treatment then the only rational response is for the UK to cease making the UK's financial contribution. It's effectively a breach of contract on the part of the EC.

          1 8 Reply
          1. David Lester
            Reply Icon

            Re: Is anyone surprised?

            Mr AC writes: "It's effectively a breach of contract on the part of the EC."

            I'm afraid not. The rules of this funding vehicle require a group of academics to form a "consortium" to bid for the grant. Because of the lack of clarity about free-movement post-Brexit, potential partners elsewhere in the EU are necessarily sceptical about inviting UK participants to join. It is a right PITA to dump someone part way through a grant.

            So, nothing about what is happening is the fault of the EU. Instead, it is an understandable reaction of individual academics throughout the rest of the EU.

            6 1 Reply
    3. bailey86
      Reply Icon

      Re: Is anyone surprised?

      It just proves to me how arbitrary and undemocratic the EU is. And why we are best out of it.

      Either we are entitled to the funding or not according to some rules. And these rules should be respected and enforced.

      How come some unelected, unknown someone just decide off their own backs where the money goes. This is the core of the EU problem - unelected, unaccountable, not sticking to the rules even if there are any. This is what has lead to the massive EU corruption and waste - as non-democratic processes always will.

      29 45 Reply
      1. Paul Shirley
        Reply Icon

        Re: Is anyone surprised?

        So much concentrated cluelessness. The 'unelected' are the ones asking for funding who noticed the uk fuckwits handling brexit are deliberately doing nothing to guarantee uk participation will continue. They've made the sane choice to avoid risk until the uk stops using them as a negotiating chip. FFS the uk refuses to even guarantee EU citizens in these collaborations can work in the uk, what kind of fool would sign up for that?

        Brexiters would do well to remember how eager most governments are to grease the wheels of immigration for scientists. Play nice now or have your whining ignored when your scientists leave.

        17 11 Reply
      2. Avalanche
        Reply Icon

        Re: Is anyone surprised?

        You do realise that this 'consortium', is a research collaboration between university research groups: they work together on projects and to obtaining funding. They decided they didn't want to bother with the headaches of the brexit, and they therefor decided to kick the UK-based scientists out of their collaboration.

        So this isn't about EU funding tiself and some 'unelected' bureaucrat deciding that the UK doesn't get funding. It is about researchers deciding they no longer want to work together with researchers in the UK because of the uncertainty of the timeline and the effects on the cooperation and funding.

        28 5 Reply
        1. Rod 6
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          Re: Is anyone surprised?

          It's worth adding that the probability of getting these projects funded is very small in the first place (3-10%) so a group would not want to reduce their chances by building in any problems i.e. a UK group that the reviewers may not like. Also, theses proposals are very long documents (80 pages) and can take a significant amount of time to write so the head scientist probably just want's to make sure he is not wasting his time/effort.

          5 2 Reply
          1. David Lester
            Reply Icon

            Re: Is anyone surprised?

            Rod,

            I have applied for one of these Marie-Curie PhD Training Networks before, and as you say they are "competitive".

            The real reason that I'd avoid a UK partner at the moment is the enormous question mark over free-movement. The whole idea is that a PhD student from one country is taught in another. If the UK cannot guarantee that the students and there supervisors have the right to free movement for the next four years, then there seems little point in a UK partner.

            (You might note that Switzerland is not permitted to be part of these actions due to restrictions on the free movement of EU citizens from Slovenia.)

            10 1 Reply
      3. SundogUK Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Is anyone surprised?

        This.

        0 2 Reply
  2. JassMan
    Facepalm

    Thank you Mr.Farage

    It is all right for you to retire so that you get back to having a life, but your lies have ruined the lives of thousands of others. Thank you also Gove, Johnson etc.

    Even if the government finds a way to ensure that funding continues until Article 50 is completed, this is a pointer to how UK science will be suffering within 3 years.

    As Moedas said: "As long as the UK is a member of the European Union, EU law continues to apply and the UK retains all rights and obligations of a member state." My guess would be that Moedas regards funding as a privilege and not a right.

    54 27 Reply
    1. Richard 26
      Reply Icon

      Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

      "As Moedas said: "As long as the UK is a member of the European Union, EU law continues to apply and the UK retains all rights and obligations of a member state." My guess would be that Moedas regards funding as a privilege and not a right."

      That is somewhat unfair, I think. Institutions deciding they don't want to make a joint application with a British partner is not something you can legislate for. You can only treat the bids you receive equally.

      37 0 Reply
      1. actioniom
        Reply Icon

        Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

        then we should stop paying ,,, simple and transfer funding to uk institutions immediately, we pay more than we get back so are in a position to invest more in ourselves.. the chicken little idiots blaming brexit for this action should perhaps take a moment to recognise that this is the typical abuse of our good faith that has lead to us telling them and their three passport operators at dover on the busiest day of the year that we have had enough, pay for yourselves, stop fishing in our waters, and you are welcome to come here as long as you can pay for yourselves and add to our inclusive multicultural society .

        29 68 Reply
        1. hewbass
          Reply Icon

          Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

          Bollocks

          This is perfectly foreseeable outcome.

          If you were to employ a building company to construct your house and you happen to know that one of them is likely to go out of business halfway through the works, would you employ that one or one of their competitors?

          The EU scientists don't want to partner with our scientists because they don't know whether we will able to be reliable partners.

          Also although we pay more nor to the EU bureaucracy than it pays us bag, our EU membership let's us lever far more economic growth and trade benefits than we would otherwise have, and pays us back many times over the money we pay in- this is the whole point of EU membership.

          30 7 Reply
        2. werdsmith Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

          actionism wrote:

          " the chicken little idiots blaming brexit for this action "

          I wonder, did you miss the line in the email:

          The main reason of this decision concerns the Brexit and all the incertitude it brings.

          The chicken little idiots blaming brexit are the chicken little idiots who decide who is in the consortium and who gets the money. Anyone with the most basic sense of intuition will have been able to predict that things are going to be royally fucked up by a leave vote.

          Those liars involved in the campaign need to face criminal charges.

          23 4 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

            "Those liars involved in the campaign need to face criminal charges".

            Maybe at this stage we ought to clear the air a little and establish our respective facts. Could you please state exactly what "lies" you are referring to?

            3 6 Reply
            1. Red Bren
              Reply Icon

              Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

              "Maybe at this stage we ought to clear the air a little and establish our respective facts. Could you please state exactly what "lies" you are referring to?"

              How about the £350M/week "wasted" on the EU that could be spent on the NHS? That lie barely lasted 24 hours after the result, before Brexit's cheerleaders were denying they ever said it and that it was all a misunderstanding...

              13 2 Reply
              1. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                Like many (perhaps most) claims made by politicians when votes are at stake, the £350 million/week claim was exaggerated and unrealistic. However, a look at https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ - which apparently is trying to simplify the matter as much as possible - reveals how wildly complicated the figures can get. Like everything connected with the EU, it seems that there are facts behind facts, and figures within figures, and almost everything can be challenged, reinterpreted, or denied. (Unsurprisingly for an organization whose accounts, I believe, have never yet been audited and signed off).

                In principle, it's fairly simple. The UK has been paying a gross contribution - that's where the £350 million/week came from - although in reality this is reduced by the rebate. With the rebate, the net contribution is about £260 million/week (still an amount I would rather have than not have).

                If you then allow for the average payments the EU is said to make back to the EU, the net contribution drops again to something like £170 million/week (which would build a new hospital, by the way).

                Please note from the Fullfact.org page:

                "The claim that the UK’s membership fee is £55 million a day comes from the £20 billion annual UK payment to EU institutions listed in the Office for National Statistics' (ONS) Pink Book.

                "The ONS told us this isn’t the correct figure to use. It has another set of figures which actually represent official government payments, although this isn’t clear from the release".

                I wouldn't say that this supports the claim that £350 million/week is a deliberate lie. Rather, it looks as if even the official government figures released to the public were admittedly unclear and confusing.

                Moreover, while the figure of £350 million/week is certainly not accurate, in principle it is true that the UK pays a hell of a lot of money to the EU, and gets a very uncertain and arbitrary return on those payments. Of course, those who are receiving such payments from the EU are naturally unhappy about the prospect that they might cease. But I think the UK is better off with £170 million/week (£8.5 billion a year) than with nothing.

                6 9 Reply
                1. Lars Silver badge
                  Reply Icon
                  Happy

                  Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                  @Archtech. While it's not uncomplicated to work out the costs it's much harder to estimate benefits. If we assume it's £170 million/week then that is just about 1% of the UK GDP. So does the EU membership contribute more than that 1%. I think so.

                  However, from the very beginning the richer members have paid more than they receive while the poorer countries have got more than they have contributed with. "All for one and one for all" and things like that, in the best British historical tradition, a British virtue if you like. To hope that every country was on the receiving side would indicate a belief in Father Christmas even as an adult.

                  I also live in a country that contributes, and for reasons you will have to work out all by yourself, if you can, I like that state to continue.

                  7 2 Reply
                2. Just Enough
                  Reply Icon

                  @ Archtech Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                  A well reasoned reply that neatly side-steps the majority of the issue.

                  The Brexit campaign were told repeatedly that the £350 million figure was inaccurate and misleading. Yet they stuck with it right up to the day after the vote. Is that not dishonest?

                  The suggestion that the mythical £350 million would become available as free cash to put into the NHS was always a lie, right from the start. And the Brexit campaign knew it was a lie (if we are to credit them with not being completely clueless). Yet they decided to make that a strap line on a principle campaign slogan. Is that not dishonest?

                  And you can throw into the mix the total lie about Turkey being right in line for EU membership, at which point they were all heading here. Always a lie, and always nasty scare-mongering.

                  9 0 Reply
                  1. lorisarvendu
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: @ Archtech Thank you Mr.Farage

                    "The Brexit campaign were told repeatedly that the £350 million figure was inaccurate and misleading. Yet they stuck with it right up to the day after the vote. Is that not dishonest?"

                    I suspect they were strapped for cash and it would have cost too much to repaint the bus.

                    6 0 Reply
                3. smartypants
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                  I note you set no money aside for paying for access to the EU single market in the future.

                  Was this more brexit miscalculation, or is it official brexit policy to say goodbye to a market where 40% of our exports currently go?

                  There is no reasonable defence of the headline 'savings' claimed by the brexit campaign, which is why no brexit leaders have tried to defend it. Instead, they just withdrew this 'mistake'.

                  How many people genuinely believed in this windfall? Decent, honest, people, when lied to by people they trust, may end up making the wrong decision, no?

                  4 0 Reply
            2. Hans 1
              Reply Icon
              Coat

              Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

              @ Archtech

              >Could you please state exactly what "lies" you are referring to?

              Reads like the Breixteers got at least a single fact right, care to share that one with us ?

              1 2 Reply
              1. codejunky Silver badge
                Reply Icon

                Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                @ Hans 1

                Archtech might have been asking if it was the remain or leave lies. Both official campaigns really did make a show of themselves and didnt do the country proud.

                2 2 Reply
              2. Jess
                Reply Icon

                Re: Reads like the Breixteers got at least a single fact right, care to share that one with us ?

                Wasn't the one about the fish true?

                3 0 Reply
        3. Naughtyhorse
          Reply Icon

          Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

          actioniom

          we pay more than we get back so are in a position to invest more in ourselves.. the chicken little idiots blaming brexit for this action should perhaps take a moment to recognise that...

          we have taken way more out of the research budget than we pay in, and anyone who knows anything about british politicians knows full well that any and all windfalls from no longer making contributions to the EU is to be spent on tax cuts for the wealthy, the NHS, farmers and scientists cal all go fuck themselves.

          And maybe brexiteer idiots should at least try to get a fact right every now and again, who knows if they had done that in the first instance we wouldn't be in this mess right now.

          17 5 Reply
          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Reply Icon
            Unhappy

            " maybe brexiteer idiots should at least try to get a fact right every now and again, "

            " who knows if they had done that in the first instance we wouldn't be in this mess right now."

            But then they might have lost.

            5 2 Reply
      2. Rod 6
        Reply Icon

        Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

        It won't be the 'institutions' either, just a single scientist leading the group. I'm certainly not going for any UK funding at the moment as seems like a big waste of time. You only need 1 reviewer to write a grump review of your proposal and it's finished even in good times, and now the chance of getting that 1 grump reviewer would seem to have significantly increased. EU money is hard to get anyway, with loads of beurocratic strings attached.

        2 1 Reply
    2. actioniom
      Reply Icon

      Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

      forget your thank you Mr Farage, in a democracy the will of the majority is sacrosanct, the majority voted, accept it. move on, and fight for a better deal for britain rather than talking the country down. We pay more than we receive, its not too tricky to work out we can divert some of that cash to ourselves and if the eu are breaking their own rules we need to stop paying now.

      29 67 Reply
      1. smartypants
        Reply Icon

        Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

        Yes, thank you for lying to the public to get their vote, then fucking off as soon as it was won and the lie was admitted.

        If this is what you mean by 'sacrosanct' democracy, I think you need to revisit the concept.

        43 14 Reply
        1. codejunky Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

          @ smartypants

          "Yes, thank you for lying to the public to get their vote, then fucking off as soon as it was won and the lie was admitted."

          I hope you will fire shots at the remain campaign for their excessive lies and it was the honesty of Farage that got us the vote promised to us for over a decade. And he didnt fuck off. He is still an MEP which is the only place he can be to be involved.

          2 8 Reply
          1. Triggerfish
            Reply Icon

            Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

            Well it depends how you see it, with Farage

            If his purpose was to put the country in massive uncertainty, then bugger off to work for the union he is againts and take their money - 17 yrs at what 60K a year, nice profit there. Plus the expenses he cheerfully ripped. Then you are right he did a very god job. He will have a nice retirment somewhere.

            If however you tend to be of the mind of your broke it you pay for it, and clearing your own messes up. Then he is a twat who fucked off as soon as he should have been showing responsobilty for the mess he has made.

            I epxect more from someone who has been sucking at the public teat for so long.

            6 0 Reply
            1. codejunky Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

              @ Triggerfish

              "If his purpose was to put the country in massive uncertainty"

              And you attribute nothing to Cameron, Osborne, Carney, the IMF? The IMF are already on the naughty step for helping to damage Greece and propping up the Eurozone. Cameron claimed we would be fine if we left (pre-referendum), then doom. But he will stay to negotiate, until he resigned right after losing. Or Osborne arguing against little England, until the result then arguing for Great Britain. Threatening an emergency budget and promising to do damage if we vote wrong. Or Carney who sees the huge threat that is the EU/Eurozone, until the referendum then it has no flaws and we will be doomed.

              The remain campaign existed on how doomed and screwed we would be if we vote out. We dont have the damage they talked about but we do have a reduction of confidence. Not hard to see why.

              "then bugger off to work for the union he is against and take their money"

              He was already doing this. He quit as UKIP leader since his small party finally got us the referendum. He is still an MEP until we leave. Which is right.

              "If however you tend to be of the mind of your broke it you pay for it, and clearing your own messes up"

              Should he by default become PM? He was actively frozen out of the negotiations yet UKIP are the ones who intended to leave the EU. So as MEP he is using the only role he has available to help see this through. What do you think he should do? Overthrow the gov?

              2 7 Reply
              1. Triggerfish
                Reply Icon

                Re: Thank you Mr.Farage @Codejunky

                Well generally I suspect most politicians are shits, so that covers Cameron and Osborne. ;)

                But yes actually maybe they should also be standing up Mr Cameron included. Frankly I had little trust of Osborne once he revelaed he was suprised the rich avoided taxes, thats either stupid or duplicitous. Plus shows little understanding of the company his family runs which never makes profit, but manages to pay out 300K in dividends.

                Carney I dunno, I thought he warned aginst it didn't he?

                Can't say on the IMF don't know enough.

                Farage, yes he should have stayed on in UKIP and explained how he the lies he helped perpetrate are actually facts. Lets be honest I do not have much appracietion of UKIP. But I would say their party at least deserved a leader who after bringing them to this, stood up a bit or at least saw it through the interim period where at they are at the moment.

                Now as I have said he has been paid by the taxpayer and I believe he should answer some of the questions about his bullshit that helped bring the country to this state. But he didn't he fucked off sharpish to avoid any direct questions, didn't he?

                Why should he take the EU money, why has he not retired from there, job done? After all surely he is not beholden to European taxpayers more than the UK ones. Is it because he is getting something like 85K plus expenses, and he won't have so many awkward questions to answer from people in the UK he has been playing demagouge to? Don't get me wrong as I said he is not singled out, Boris Johnson for example if he drops dead I can't see it being a loss. But I still stand by my original statement.

                Nigel Farage is a twat.

                6 0 Reply
                1. codejunky Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Thank you Mr.Farage @Codejunky

                  @ Triggerfish

                  "Well generally I suspect most politicians are shits, so that covers Cameron and Osborne. ;)"

                  You got an upvote from me on that one.

                  "Carney I dunno, I thought he warned aginst it didn't he?"

                  He started out complaining about the economic threat that is the Eurozone and I think he even pointed at problems with the EU laws (that may not have been him). Yet when reporting for the referendum he refused to talk down the EU or Eurozone and instead made a fantasy story of how wonderful it was. He got called out for his massive political bias by Jacob Rees-Mogg. And the IMF have been accused of abandoning all economic rules to prop up the Euro and EU contributing to the damage of Greece. Of course Osborne shamelessly pushed his punishment budget. Basically the story between the IMF, Osborne and Carney was so similar and exceptionally one sided that it was unreliable political rubbish and all 3 are taking a backlash for it.

                  Basically the uncertainty may partly due to the up and coming brexit but for the most part it seems to be a confidence issue from the repeating claims of coming doom. Do that in any country and it will knock the economy.

                  "But he didn't he fucked off sharpish to avoid any direct questions, didn't he?"

                  I am not as convinced by this. I think he did answer questions and has been doing constantly for his views of leaving. Everything he says is twisted before reporting and then he is attacked for that. Even on QT he was honest to the point of contradicting the leave campaign. Some people like him, others dont but he has given the UK the one vote he and we insisted on (and have been constantly promised) and now he has done it he has left. Even if he remained leading UKIP he has no power in the UK and has done what he intended to do.

                  He also only gets paid by the EU for as long as we are in it and they want him out (he holds them to account). However I dont know the guy so he might also be a twat.

                  3 2 Reply
                  1. Triggerfish
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: Thank you Mr.Farage @Codejunky

                    Well I'll have to check up on Carney and the IMF.

                    Only thing I know about Carney with reference to the campaign was he was for staying in and predicted some of this trouble. As far as I knew JRM criticisms were tied in with the fact he was commenting rather than staying out of it, like you would expect with a internal political campaign. Personally I have little issue with that, note also JRM was on the brexit side. Struck me as linked to Goves we shouldn't listen to experts.

                    In fact I was fascinated by the whole we should not listen to experts things touted by some, I am looking forward to the day a binman does Mr Goves surgery, or flys him to holiday, because after all you do not want people who have studied medicine for surgery, or pilots for flying doing that, noooo no experts at all please.

                    He hasn't answered questions such as the £350 million, he has nicely pointed out that it wasn't him, while completly letting it be part of a advertising campaign. Likewise he has ridden on the coattails of simialr bull, he basically is a demagouge.

                    I'm not sure we can call him for that liar for some of this, but I am remided of a saying that starts "Oh what a tangled web we weave....."

                    So why did he not retire from the EU, as job done? Why does he see no responsobilty for what he brought about.

                    It is literally like shitting in someones room, and going job done, someone else can clean it up.

                    3 0 Reply
          2. smartypants
            Reply Icon

            Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

            "I hope you will fire shots at the remain campaign for their excessive lies"

            Well why not bring up some examples, and we can discuss this.

            "it was the honesty of Farage that got us the vote promised to us for over a decade"

            Farage isn't an honest man. He was happy to lead a campaign designed to make people think the NHS was going to receive a huge windfall. What got us to this idiotic referendum was a crisis in the tory party which he helped to bring to a head. It didn't help that the timing of the vote coincided with a labour leader who still has wet dreams about Clause Four, which the EU is utterly incompatible with.

            "He is still an MEP which is the only place he can be to be involved."

            Well what do we get from the £6 grand a month* salary of Nigel Farage? The only person with a lower voting record as an MEP than Nigel Farage is Brian Cowley from Ireland, who has never voted at all. He's almost as bad as Gordon Brown!

            (*before very considerable expenses)

            5 0 Reply
            1. codejunky Silver badge
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              Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

              @ smartypants

              "Well why not bring up some examples, and we can discuss this."

              WW3, emergency budget, we will be fine outside the EU/we will be doomed, Eurozone is a huge economic problem/only mentioning down sides for leaving. Those are the most memorable.

              "Farage isn't an honest man. He was happy to lead a campaign designed to make people think the NHS was going to receive a huge windfall."

              That was the official campaigns claim, not Farage. I think the closest link the papers managed to make (that I saw) was he rode one of their buses at one point (after they did everything to try and keep him from campaigning).

              "Well what do we get from the £6 grand a month* salary of Nigel Farage?"

              He represents 52% of the voters on the EU. We want out.

              1 3 Reply
              1. smartypants
                Reply Icon

                Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                codejunky, your remain campaign 'lies'... Could you please come up with something a bit more concrete? Perhaps a link to who claimed what?

                "I think the closest link the papers managed to make (between Farage and the NHS claim) was he rode one of their buses at one point"

                You are in denial aren't you? Let me help you. On question time, weeks before the vote he said, talking about using the money supposedly saved by not paying the EU:

                "Can we just get to the truth of this - £350 million a week is wrong, it’s higher than that,”

                http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html

                "He represents 52% of the voters on the EU"... but just over a 3rd of the voting public. That might do for a general election, but not a huge constitutional change. And I think the number would be far less today, given the lies that he and the rest of the brexit campaign made.

                An honest man indeed.

                5 0 Reply
                1. codejunky Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Thank you Mr.Farage

                  @ smartypants

                  "codejunky, your remain campaign 'lies'... Could you please come up with something a bit more concrete? Perhaps a link to who claimed what?"

                  I am going to assume wilful ignorance now. Cameron claimed WW3 if we leave. Cameron said we would be fine to leave, then when campaigning during the referendum made insane claims of doom. Carney complained about the Eurozone and EU pre referendum, but during would only speak of our doom. Osborne promised an emergency budget which was labelled a punishment budget as it existed for no reason but to threaten against the wrong result. The IMF have been publicly shamed recently for abandoning economic knowledge and breaking the standard rules to prop up the eurozone. What part of any of this did you miss? Hell on the same day the metro had one article of Cameron stating he will stay to negotiate as he is in the best position etc and one of him resigning because he lost.

                  "You are in denial aren't you? Let me help you. On question time, weeks before the vote he said, talking about using the money supposedly saved by not paying the EU"

                  Not denial. I read that article. What is wrong with it? Or did you only read the little bit without actually reading the rest around it?

                  "but just over a 3rd of the voting public"

                  What is greater (basic math) 52% or 48%? That is of those who voted in one of the highest turn outs for a vote in the UK. As for that not being enough for constitutional change, 0% voted to join the EU because Blair kept promising a vote but did as he pleased regardless. So even after all this time in the EU to be shown the wonder and awesomeness the EU didnt get strong constitutional changing support nor did it even manage a basic and simple majority.

                  You may not like the result but that does not change the result.

                  1 0 Reply

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