back to article We're not looking for MH370 in the wrong place say investigators

Dutch geosciences company Fugro has denied that the search for missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 has been conducted in the wrong place. Reuters yesterday quoted Fugro figures as saying that the chosen search area assumes the plane met a sudden end, but that if the crew were awake the plane could have glided well beyond …

Page:

  1. Sampler
    Joke

    Given that they haven't found it...

    ..by very definition, they're looking in the wrong place?

    1. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: Given that they haven't found it...

      ...or they're not done yet.

      Your 'Joke Alert' icon noted, but this clarification still useful.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge

        Re: Given that they haven't found it...

        "..or they're not done yet."

        how long did it take to find the Titanic with modern equipment? I'd figure something smaller than Titanic might be harder to find, and it may be deeper there.

        I suspect classified military information might have already pinpointed its location, right after the crash, even [which is why they keep searching "those areas"]. But revealing classified information can lead to "oh, you have THOSE capabilities!" revelations to people who shouldn't know such things...

        So the only help they could give is a circle drawn on a map, and a "we think it's within this area someplace". And if there wasn't a submarine on station within a few days of the crash, listening to the underwater beacon in order to get a proper fix on it, I'd be VERY surprised. But underwater, sound does NOT travel in a straight line, the detailed knowledge of oceanographic and other factors that affect sound propagation is probably STILL classified, and even the locations of a submarine is classified as SECRET and above (for the U.S. Navy), and probably similar for Australia, Russia, and China, and any OTHER country that might have a sub in the area. So there you go.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Mark 85 Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Given that they haven't found it...

      But..but... you always find what you're looking for in the last place you look. Now if we just learn to look there first.

    4. mi1400

      Re: Given that they haven't found it...

      This is also very similar as U.S/U.K spent all the fortunes to dig the culprits of lockerbie from thin air while still criminally ignoring the cause of malaysian mh370. i.e. Primary Radar data both U.S and U.K not interested in letting to reach victims or their lawyers ...

      http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/MH17_relatives_demand_release_of_radar_images_999.html

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Mushroom

        Re: Given that they haven't found it...

        Just out of curiosity, can you point where the UK or the US are mentioned in the article you have cited? As far as I can see it is the Netherlands and Russia are mentioned, no-one else. Also UK/US do not have any primary radar assets in the region, so I don't know why your rant is being directed at them unless it is just trying to get up-votes from those who believe that the US/UK axis is behind every bad event in the world.

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: Given that they haven't found it... @ mi1400

          Your confusing MH17 shot down over the Ukraine with MH370 lost somewhere near Asia.

        2. mi1400

          Re: Given that they haven't found it...

          lick this... from same article

          They are also demanding that the United States hand over its evidence. ... saying they had images showing the missile's trajectory. .... Kiev has backed Washington's version of events

          may the clown donald trump become ur president.

          1. Alfred

            Re: Given that they haven't found it...

            @mi1400:

            As someone said above, wrong aeroplane. We're talking about mh370; the one that vanished into the sea west of Australia. You're thinking of the one shot down over Ukraine.

            1. mi1400

              Re: Given that they haven't found it...

              @Alfred ... dear Alfred i know and understand what ppl are correcting me on ... my first post and opening line was "This is also very similar as..." . I know article is about different plane. I was raising point on side note about similar case.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Given that they haven't found it...

                "@Alfred ... dear Alfred i know and understand what ppl are correcting me on ... my first post and opening line was "This is also very similar as..." . I know article is about different plane. I was raising point on side note about similar case."

                well, allow me to correct you on something else 'very similar as...', this is not a standard English construct, try 'very similar to...'

    5. TechnicalBen Silver badge

      Re: Given that they haven't found it...

      An upvote for the joke. But technically the search space could cover the right place. It could just be far too large, or the right part is the last part they will search...

      ... wait, by definition the right place is the last place they search.

  2. mark 177

    Comms?

    You think that with no power and many, many miles from land, they could communicate with someone? Unlikely, I think. Way beyond the range of air traffic control, and unlikely to be many planes in that region.

    1. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

      Re: Comms?

      Think up. Way up. What SIGINT did we see in that time period?

    2. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Comms?

      Every aircraft has several Emergency Locator Beacon units, which have independent batteries.

      - You might remember a fire in a parked 787-Dreamliner at Heathrow on 12th July 2013.

      The ones built into the structure of the aircraft are all relatively simple for the crew manually trigger, precisely for this type of situation.

      They work by satellite and are automatically activated in the event of a crash, so the fact no signals were received implies an impact that either destroyed them, or sank them very quickly.

    3. Vic

      Re: Comms?

      You think that with no power and many, many miles from land, they could communicate with someone?

      But they would have power.

      A 777 has two engines, each with a generator. It also has an APU, with a generator. And if all those have failed, it has a RAT - which turns a generator. Power can be bussed from any source to any device.

      The aircraft would have been powered until it hit the water. There would have been plenty of time to get out a distress call, had someone been minded so to do.

      Vic.

  3. This post has been deleted by a moderator

    1. Phil Kingston Silver badge

      Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

      "The fact that a Ukrainian or Polish pilot may have pulled the trigger is immaterial"

      And wrong. Everyone knows Elvis did it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

      @A_Melbourne

      Hey, didn't I just see a picture of you playing with a toy truck in a Miami road?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

      9/11 conspiracy theories come from Americans not being able to accept that they are the bad guys.

      Then overly complex theories aren't needed, and it was simple payback for meddling in foreign affairs.

      1. kain preacher Silver badge

        Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

        There is good amount put out by the saudis to. i wounder why ?

    4. VulcanV5

      Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

      "Not a single body on board had any schrapnel."

      Agreed. Whereas your body is showing every sign of too much schnapps.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

        MH17 from the underside looked a lot like the Russian jet Putin flies in. So if I fought for the Ukraine and I had access to a BUK missile launcher and I saw that, well you know what would happen.

      2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

        Too much schnapps, too little dried frog pills.

    5. Bitbeisser

      Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

      Bullcarp!

      The DSB report states clearly that the front of the plane was hit by the fragments of an SA-11 warhead, and such "butterfly" fragments were found embedded in the recovered cockpit crew's bodies.

      And the pictures of the reconstructed front of the plane doesn't look anything like "peppered by cannon fire" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-report-buk-warhead-exploded-a-metre-away-from-planes-cockpit-and-started-fatal-break-up-a6692346.html)

      On top of that, shortly after the shot-down, the supposedly rebel leader, Igor Gorkin (in fact outed as a FSB agent), posted a social media post bragging that they shot down another high flying Ukrainian AN-26 (they claimed on 3 days earlier, confirmed by the Ukrainian Airforce) only to remove that post as soon as it became clear that the plane they had shot down was in fact a 3rd party civilian airliner. And that despite they claimed later not to have any missiles that can reach a plane flying that high...

      Looks like you need to replace your tinfoil head and white-blue-red shades, they seem to be a bit worn out...

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: MH370 and MH17 were organised by the same people

        "Bullcarp!"

        Sexist pig! (or sexist sow, if you prefer) What's wrong with hencarp? Or fishcarp if we want to be gender neutral.

        You know what's really funny? Crap was the semi-polite word to replace the very vulgar shit. Now crap has exactly the same vulgar connotations as shit, some people can't even bring themselves to say crap. Next thing you know people will be mis-spelling Golly Gosh and Good Gravy because everyone knows they are polite terms for blasphemous phrases :-)

  4. Brian Miller Silver badge

    They're almost done..

    Let's see, 110,000 out of 120,000 square miles, so it's almost done. Will they find it? Well, since by definition it's in the last place they look, then it must be behind the couch, or maybe even under the cushions.

    Really, the reliance on technology like it's some sort of oracle is just ridiculous. Plane crashes in the ocean, and everybody thinks it should be bobbing around like a cork. Steve Fossett crashed in the Sierra Nevada mountains, and was discovered purely by accident about a year later. Every day the search was active, they discovered a new wreck.

    It's been two years. All of the relatives know their loved ones are dead. Time to move on.

    1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken Silver badge

      Re: They're almost done..

      Difficult to move on without some closure, no matter what you know on the rational level. Thing is, humans aren't rational beings. (And if you doubt this, just look at some of the discussions in the forums here.) Funerals are for the living. If they were done simply because of the hygienic issues a dead body will rise, there would be no need for all the rituals involved. This goes way, way back in our history as a species; even the Neanderthals buried their dead in some sort of ceremony.

    2. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: They're almost done..

      It's been two years. All of the relatives know their loved ones are dead. Time to move on.

      They may "know" it (for some value of "know") but many don't believe it. Just look at some of the comments here on El Reg with all sorts of explanations for Apollo, plane crashes, 9/11,etc. People are conditioned in many places to needing to see the body. By now, I'm sure there's little that remains of the people on board that plane... but there are those that will insist.

    3. Sampler

      Re: They're almost done..

      @Brian Miller - yeah, after two years the smoke monster's bound to have got them by now...

  5. Syntax Error

    It was a very professional job by whoever who did it. It was done by someone with pilot knowledge.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      You REALLY need to use the joke icon in this place. There seems to be a lot of people here who miss the most obvious cues. Subtle ones are simply beyond those people.

  6. Faux Science Slayer

    Non Interuptable Autopilot....

    "How to Steal an Airplane, from 9/11 to MH-370" a Corbett Report on YouTube....

  7. wolfetone Silver badge

    No One Wants The Flight Found

    This is something that will never be solved, because no one really wants to find it.

    Take the idea one (or both) of the pilots did it, it isn't too hard for the black box and flight recorders to be turned off. It's been done before on different suicide flights. So even if they find the plane and the black boxes, there's a high chance nothing will be on them.

    If it's a genuine flight issue that didn't have input from pilots (like a fire for example), the longer it's down there the more likely the data will be damaged beyond repair. So it'll be harder to get any sort of information from the black boxes.

    If it was part of a conspiracy by a Government body, then I suppose you can roll it back to the first scenario where the data recording is turned off. Dump the plane somewhere that would make it super difficult to find, and even if it was found make it super hard to find out what happened to it. Add to this the high possibility that there is a nation in the world who has a satellite who spotted the plane and probably knows where it is, but if they ever said so other countries would start asking questions like "Why were you spying there?"

    Like it's already been said, it's more or less certain now the people on this plane are dead. We're going through this process of finding a plane that is most likely in bits in a part of the world that's difficult to recover things from, let alone find it. What happens if they find the plane but it's useless because they can't extrapolate any data from it? The families will suffer more, because surely it's worse to think you will never know what happened to your loved one compared to not knowing where they are?

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

      You'd need the entire crew to be involved in such a conspiracy, or one of the cabin crew would pop to the "toilet" and hit the button on the emergency locator beacon.

      There is no large conspiracy here. The plane suffered an event that incapacitated everyone on board, and it's computers kept it flying until they couldn't.

      There are things to learn from this, and one of the big reasons for keeping looking is to find out what that initial event was, and why the pilots and crew did not communicate during or after it.

      The aircraft itself did keep squawking, it just had nothing to say - so that's one obvious change to onboard systems.

      1. Chris Miller

        Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

        The incapacitation theory needs to account for the known facts that all the active location systems were disabled and the aircraft then flew a course that appears carefully chosen to avoid passive radar detection followed by a final course change to take it to the middle of the Indian ocean.

      2. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

        "You'd need the entire crew to be involved in such a conspiracy, or one of the cabin crew would pop to the "toilet" and hit the button on the emergency locator beacon."

        Not really, you only need one pilot to leave the cockpit for any of this to take place. It's very possible that one of the pilots left the cockpit, the door closed behind them, and the remaining pilot turned the pressurisation mode to manual. This would mean the cabin would start to depressurise, lose oxygen etc.

        Doing this would trigger alarms etc, as well as automatically dropping the overhead masks to the passengers due to the plane knowing it has an issue. The oxygen though would only last 12 minutes with these masks. If there's a panic on board in this event (Which there would be), through that panic more oxygen would be used. Especially if the now outside pilot is banging against the door. The pilot flying the plane has a different oxygen system which (as far as I know) doesn't run out or lasts a lot longer than 12 minutes. The plane loses oxygen, everyone without oxygen passes out. This happened on Helios 522 when the ground crew didn't reset the pressurisation switch from manual. In that instance it took around 20 minutes for the plane to get to an altitude where there was no oxygen and for the pilots to succumb to it.

        In this case the plane had already passed 18,000 feet with no issues (altitude warnings on Helios occured at 12,000 ft) after it took off at 12:40am. The last radio message with the flight was at 1:20am. So it had been flying for 40 minutes without an issue. The plane was last seen on secondary radar at 1:20am, then last seen by primary radar at 2:20am at an entirely different position. So the plane had made that sharp turn and deviated from it's course. But if you're the only soul on the plane then you have all the time in the world to go and turn all of the bits and pieces off.

        "There are things to learn from this, and one of the big reasons for keeping looking is to find out what that initial event was, and why the pilots and crew did not communicate during or after it."

        I know and understand, but by now there will be no physical evidence (in terms of autopsy) that could be performed on any of the passengers or crew. So you won't know whether or not what I said happened and whether the pilot topped himself with drink and drugs while the plane was on autopilot. Physical damage to the plane might be visible if you find enough parts, but even then you could be left with the scenario that the plane itself was fine.

        "The aircraft itself did keep squawking, it just had nothing to say - so that's one obvious change to onboard systems."

        You have to apply Arkhams Razor to this. The plane crashed through physical interaction as the flight moved in between radar corridors so it couldn't be tracked. The likelyhood this happened without manual input or was pure coincidence is so unlikely it couldn't be considered.

        You're then left with trying to find a motive, and sometimes that goes with people to the grave.

        1. myhandler

          Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

          >>> You have to apply Arkhams Razor to this.

          It's Occam, William of Occam, my good chap.

          1. dajames Silver badge

            Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

            >>> You have to apply Arkhams Razor to this.

            It's Occam, William of Occam, my good chap.

            Yes, but I quite liked the idea of Arkham's Razor ...

            What would that be? Make no more assumptions than are necessary, and then ascribe everything to betentacled monsters from another dimension anyway?

      3. Vic

        Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

        You'd need the entire crew to be involved in such a conspiracy, or one of the cabin crew would pop to the "toilet" and hit the button on the emergency locator beacon.

        Nope. The ELT is triggered from the cockpit. A single bad actor in the cockpit could take full control of the aircraft - as we saw in the Germanwings crash in the Alps.

        The plane suffered an event that incapacitated everyone on board, and it's computers kept it flying until they couldn't.

        If true, that is not the whole story. We know there was at least one bad actor in the cockpit from the fact that the aircraft flew a number of legs through standard waypoints that were not part of the flight planb. That means that either someone was hand-flying the plane - quite precisely, from the look of the radar track - or (more likely, IMHO) someone programmed in a new set of waypoints into the FD. This isn't something you do by accident...

        The aircraft itself did keep squawking, it just had nothing to say - so that's one obvious change to onboard systems.

        Errr - nope. The squawk was initially downgraded from Mode S (presumably to Mode C), and then eventually turned off completely. But while it was turned on, it was transmitting everything you would expect it to; were you thinking of ACARS?

        Vic.

    2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

      Really? Other than a handful of nut-jobs, everyone in the area of science and technology wants to know what happened so there is a better chance of it not happening again.

      This is not some shitty OS that crashes and people just shrug their shoulders, reboot, and try to redo the last hour or twos lost work. Here it really matters!

      Even if it turns out to be a human fault, or even a deliberate action, we can learn and make it less likely in the future. As already pointed out, the lack of a squawk that said something useful about location and status is something that is trivial to remedy, but some other failure scenario may be present but no one has seen it yet (other than the poor souls on board MH370) so knowing that would allow something to be done.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: everyone [..] wants [..] a better chance of it not happening again

        Spot on. I am certainly very curious to know what could happen on a plane that could incapacitate hundreds of people before anyone could hit an emergency button of any sort, and do that without blowing the plane out of the sky immediately.

        Explosive decompression is out of the question, because even if it happened in the pilot area, someone would have been able to get in and radio a mayday.

        Fire on board would take too long to avoid a mayday.

        No structural damage would have killed everyone without also making the plane fall from the sky.

        The only practical possibility I see is a gas of some sort, or gradual lack of oxygen, that made everyone fall asleep without noticing. How to explain its presence is beyond me, but there has been a prior case of an airplane that crashed because the pilots hadn't seen that the oxygen system was not activated so they did not have any oxygen renewal at 15000 feet and all fell asleep, then into a coma. They were dead before the plane crashed. So there is a precedent of sorts to this kind of situation, but outside of terrorist attack, which would have been claimed, I can't see how something like it could have happened.

        1. patrickstar

          Re: everyone [..] wants [..] a better chance of it not happening again

          For good reasons (Think about it...), pilots often don't prioritize radio communication when desperately trying to save the aircraft in a sudden emergency. Look at the recent Egypt Air crash. Probable on-board fire - no radio comms.

          1. david 64

            Re: everyone [..] wants [..] a better chance of it not happening again

            Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

          2. Vic

            Re: everyone [..] wants [..] a better chance of it not happening again

            For good reasons (Think about it...), pilots often don't prioritize radio communication when desperately trying to save the aircraft in a sudden emergency

            Yes we do.

            If you don't get a mayday call out, you don't get any[1] assistance...

            Vic.

            [1] Not strictly true; an overdue aircraft will triger Searach and Rescue - but as we see here, if there's no communication from the aircraft, it's very difficult to find the wreck.

        2. Vic

          Re: everyone [..] wants [..] a better chance of it not happening again

          I am certainly very curious to know what could happen on a plane that could incapacitate hundreds of people before anyone could hit an emergency button of any sort, and do that without blowing the plane out of the sky immediately.

          But you don't need to incapacitate everyone - there is an armoured door between the cockpit and the cabin. All you need do is to have a bad actor alone in front of that door - as we say in the Germanwings crash.

          Explosive decompression is out of the question, because even if it happened in the pilot area, someone would have been able to get in and radio a mayday.

          No. Explosive decompression kills everyone instantly. There's video around of reconstructions of the Comet explosions; no-one would be around long enough to do anything.

          Vic.

    3. skebenga

      Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

      In 1987, SAA lost a B747 Combi aircraft, the Helderberg, in deep water. Much of the conspiracy discussion around the loss of MH370 mirrors that around the Helderberg at the time and since. Recovery of the wreck took 2 years.

      So why do it?

      Because something caused the plan to crash, and finding out what will prevent further occurrences. In the case of the Helderberg, the cause was clearly a fire, and the commission of enquiry determined that the firefighting regulations for that class of aeroplane were hugely inadequate, having not been updated since the 1940s. We will probably never know the cause of the fire, but who knows how many other 747 Combis have been saved from a similar fate by the resultant change in regulations.

      That's why we need to know what happened to MH370. Until it is recovered and the cause of the crash is determined, some residual suspicion is going to linger over the B777. Finding the wreckage may not solve the mystery, but it will certainly rule out some possible causes, which is all good.

    4. Fatman Silver badge

      Re: No One Wants The Flight Found

      <quote>Dump the plane somewhere that would make it super difficult to find, and even if it was found make it super hard to find out what happened to it.</quote>

      In the movie The Hunt for Red October, there is a scene where the US sub commander and the American agent discuss how to make the Russian sub disappear. The agent finds a deep spot on the charts, and sends that location to the Russian sub commander.

      It is part of this clip:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBU6C6lA6vI

      and can be found at about 1:35 - 1:39.

  8. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    The truth is whatever people choose to believe

    Inmarsat may have delivered what those looking for the plane call the best theory as to where it went down but it looks to others that it is rather flimsy and convenient 'evidence', produced after the fact to put MH370 where the official narrative wants it to be put, and placing the investigation firmly under control of five eyes nations.

    Whenever someone suggests the official narrative is wrong, the very fact they seem to immediately retract that and fall in line with the official narrative, should raise eyebrows. It is as if someone had gone and had a quiet word with them, explained what would be best for them.

    When debris washed up other than where the ocean current models predicted it would it seemed the ocean current models were likewise changed to suit the narrative.

    And there is no escaping the glaring reality that MH370 has not been found where they said it would be found, are adamant that it will be found.

    One has to wonder why they are so stubbornly sticking to a narrative which does not seem to be holding up, why they are so opposed to considering other alternatives? One has to wonder if it being something else is just so damaging that it cannot be allowed to be otherwise.

    I do not believe the wilder conspiracy theories but I do not believe we are being told the truth either, nor ever will be. I do not expect they will ever find MH370 because I don't believe they are looking in the right place. And I think that was intended.

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019