back to article Oracle says it is 'committed' to Java EE 8 – amid claims it quietly axed future development

Oracle has told The Register it is "committed" to Java amid growing fears the IT giant had all but given up on Java EE – aka Java Platform, Enterprise Edition. The Redwood City titan said it will present fresh plans for the future of Java EE 8 at its JavaOne conference in San Francisco in September. Version eight is due to be …

  1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Headmaster

    "Oracle is committed to Java and has a very well defined proposal for the next version of the Java EE specification – Java EE 8 – that will support developers as they seek to build new applications that are designed using micro-services on large-scale distributed computing and container-based environments on the Cloud"

    I wouldn't even use Java for this. The Erlang Virtual Machine and the Elixir language seem more appropriate to this use case.

    While this new interface would use some parts of Java EE, it would be approximately 80 to 90 per cent proprietary.

    It would also be 80 to 90 per cent stillborn. I hope everybody knows about / remembers the unusuable horror of the Sun-issued J2EE (Java 2 enterprise edition) super-heavy spec. "Enterprise" Java became viable (though still unnecessarily baroque at times) when the JEE specification and its free implementations became available (and then there is/was Spring as a competitor). Proprietary complex stuff that one can not play around with, open up, modify or drop on the floor as needed in 2016+? HAH!!!

    1. TheVogon Silver badge

      Is that "committed" like they are to Itanium?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I wouldn't even use Java for this. The Erlang Virtual Machine and the Elixir language seem more appropriate to this use case."

      You wouldn't, but what proportion of programmers is ever going to use Elixir running on Beam in reality? The problem with the Erlang world is, I think, a bit like the famous criticism of BASIC, that learning it inhibited you from every becoming a good programmer. I really doubt that the majority of programmers could make the transition in a realistic period and then turn out satisfactory code.

      Erlang would have been the answer to an awful lot of things - but installed base, of servers, applications and programmers - is a bugger. By the time I left my last company they were replacing an Erlang solution with a Java solution because none of them could cope with Erlang.

  2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    Java is dead - Larry says so

    by keeping his wallet firmly closed.

  3. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge
    Coat

    Of course Oracle is fully committed

    ... but then one has to remember that Oracle is mainly made of lawyers, all of them getting prepared to "vigorously defend Java". The few engineers working there have other priorities, because who would waste time working on open source project, obviously.

  4. Oengus Silver badge

    Die Java Die

    Please let it die.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Die Java Die

      Why?

      Don't confuse Java with JacaScript - they are not the same

      1. SolidSquid

        Re: Die Java Die

        I don't think they are, Java is *incredibly* unpopular with a lot of the programming community, at least in part because of the overly verbose syntax and bloat

        1. Smooth Newt Silver badge
          Pirate

          Re: Die Java Die

          I don't think they are, Java is *incredibly* unpopular with a lot of the programming community, at least in part because of the overly verbose syntax and bloat

          It is the most popular programming language in the World.

          http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: Die Java Die

            Not even Tiobe makes that claim. They say The TIOBE Programming Community index is an indicator of the popularity of programming languages. It's certainly an interesting project but seeing Assembler back in the Top 10 gives grounds for some scepsis.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Die Java Die

              It seems to me that it's incredibly easy to cobble together Java apps, hence it's popularity. The problem is that it's also incredibly easy to cobble together really bad Java apps. I've yet to see a Java app that has performed well. The sooner it dies the better.

            2. Smooth Newt Silver badge

              Re: Die Java Die

              Not even Tiobe makes that claim. They say The TIOBE Programming Community index is an indicator of the popularity of programming languages.

              Well, there are only two languages > 15% popularity over most of the past decade, and Java is one of them. C is only rated at around half the popularity of Java.

              Why do you think assembler is strange? Whilst you wouldn't write your typical application program in it, you can't get at those special purpose instructions even in C.

              1. Fibbles

                Re: Die Java Die

                Whilst you wouldn't write your typical application program in it, you can't get at those special purpose instructions even in C.

                I suppose that depends on if you count using the asm keyword as writing in C or writing in assembler.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Die Java Die

                  "I suppose that depends on if you count using the asm keyword as writing in C or writing in assembler."

                  I detect a nit being picked. If you add inline assembler to a C program, you have to program in assembler, not so? And to do so you have to know assembler and how it interacts with the compiler.

                  You cannot get to the special instructions just in C.

                  1. razorfishsl

                    Re: Die Java Die

                    and you totally destroy any hope of a cross platform library

          2. Stevie Silver badge

            Re: Die Java Die

            If we take deloyed running code doing a real-world job as the importance metric, I believe Cobol wins the race.

          3. Bob Dole (tm)

            Re: Die Java Die

            As others have pointed out, the Tiobe index isn't about usage. This very article by Tiobe's definition drives up the "popularity" rating of java.

            Consider how many web pages have featured articles about the latest java crap that needed to be patched. Every single one of them drives up the Tiobe index. In other words, all that index means is whether or not it's being talked about and has little to nothing to do with world wide usage.

            A much closer way of determining usage would be by looking at job postings. However even that is fraught with issues as smaller companies may not use the various job boards to post open positions, while larger ones may post on several sites simultaneously.

        2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: Die Java Die

          I don't think they are, Java is *incredibly* unpopular with a lot of the programming community, at least in part because of the overly verbose syntax and bloat

          The advantage is that you are not forced to use "Java" on the JVM.

          You can use Clojure for example (YAHA modern LISP, i LOVE IT), Groovy (the only language I currently use on the JVM) or quite a few others.

          Although I am looking at Haskell at the moment. A typed functional language? Fuck yes, this is the pr0nz. Not on the JVM though.

          In the same way, JavaScript has no right to even exist (I think Lovecraft wrote about that language in "the thing on the doorstep"), but one can have ClojureScript running on JavaScript engines for example to easy the pain, so it's ok.

          1. Stevie Silver badge

            Re: Die Java Die

            In the same way, JavaScript has no right to even exist (I think Lovecraft wrote about that language in "the thing on the doorstep")

            You are thinking of Ambrose Bierce's The Damned Thing.

          2. David Dawson

            Re: Die Java Die

            @destroy all monsters

            Check out frege - https://github.com/Frege/frege

            It's haskell on the JVM and looks pretty solid from what my contacts say, who are normally well informed.

            Also, this is a silly conversation 'java must die 'etc. Grow up.

        3. colinb

          Re: Die Java Die

          This has no basis in the reality of usage, i code C# during the day but I'm envious of and ecosystem like the Apache Foundation of whose Projects 213 are in JAVA and 12 are in C# https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?language

          Hadoop, Zookeerper, Lucene, Hive, Pig, etc.. the list goes on, these are been used or considered in a lot of new data projects even n companies that are not JAVA shops.

        4. JLV Silver badge
          Unhappy

          Re: Die Java Die

          I agree and I dislike Java for those reasons. I'll add "gratuitous overuse of design patterns by community" and "frequently mired in version dependency hell" to its sins.

          However, if you want a widely-used general-usage OS-agnostic compiled language for enterprise applications (not systems, that would be C, C++) then, unfortunately, that rather leaves you with Java for the moment. Barring COBOL.

          Yes, yes, some other languages may yet step up. C# if MS distrust is overcome? Swift, if suitable. Go? Rust? D has been around for a while and hasn't trended up.

          Plus, there is an ecosystem of very good apps: Apache, Hadoop, graph databases, etc..., despite the language. Android. All sorts of biz-critical J2EE apps. University trainees.

          I suspect we are stuck with Java for a while yet.

        5. KitD

          Re: Die Java Die

          You've been reading too much Reddit. Those criticising Java in 2016 tend to be the ones who left it behind at Java 6 and early JEE, or hate static typing in general.

          Modern Java doesn't compare. The new closure syntax and streaming API is enough to satisfy 90% of use cases where FP is needed. There are a ton of Sinatra-like libraries for writing small lightweight microservices, and the ecosystem, which was already vast, has only got bigger since v6.

          I've had to move to Node/JS. I'd move back to Java in a flash if I could.

        6. smackbean

          Re: Die Java Die

          "I don't think they are, Java is *incredibly* unpopular with a lot of the programming community, at least in part because of the overly verbose syntax and bloat"

          It's especially unpopular with lazy minded people with some type of irrational prejudice against it. Maybe at some point in their career they had a choice of programming language and didn't choose Java. They choose the wrong option. Java is more popular now than it has ever been. Java 8 provides excellent features and continues adding progress in terms of verbosity.

          Really it is tiresome to get these type of comments here. Java is the most popular programming language today and has been more or less for 15 years. Get over it...

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Die Java Die

        "Don't confuse Java with JacaScript - they are not the same"

        Very true. JavaScript together with JSON has found a nice comfortable place now and is chosen as the default for such lovely things as Mongo and Node.

        Java though, is repulsive and I will actively and vigorously drive it out of my life.

        Tiobe bases its popularity index on internet chatter, and because Java is sadly still used in a lot of student situations, there is plenty of web searching and forums questions being posted by those poor folk having to tear their hair out dealing with it.

        1. Ilsa Loving

          Re: Die Java Die

          Yes, because what could possibly go wrong with completely interpreted code running your server, storing it's data in a "database" that considers data integrity to be secondary to raw performance?

          And then people sit there, scratching their heads when their code gets hacked 5 ways from Sunday.

      3. razorfishsl

        Re: Die Java Die

        Yes....

        to most people and a good many interview ers & interviewees they are.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Die Java Die

      Out of curiosity, what do you propose for the hundreds of millions of UICCs out there?

  5. Zakhar

    Patent Troll

    If Oracle stops building Java but continues to sue for "illegal use of APIs" (cf Oracle vs Google trial), isn't that the exact definition of a Patent Troll?

  6. HmmmYes Silver badge

    Oh its probably dead.

    Unless someone can explain a revenue model for Oracle to extract money from the user base.

    1. Anonymous Curd

      Berjillions of companies paying berjillions of pounds for WebLogic servers.

      Insane, yes, but they're still there.

      1. Erik4872

        "Insane, yes, but they're still there."

        Exactly. People forget that Java EE is almost like the new COBOL, and the various Java application servers are like the mainframe now. Almost everyone doing things like mainframe conversions, ESBs and other enterprisey things in the early 2000s has some of that development in J2EE. When you consider that a lot of that development was outsourced and the applications are complex enough to be considered black boxes, it makes sense for Oracle to continue extracting revenue from people who can't really move. Think about it - knowing what you know about Oracle, would you ever choose them for a brand new database deployment? No one is, so Oracle has to milk the existing customer base.

        CA is also famous for doing this. Some of their mainframe and UNIX applications are 30 years old and basically haven't changed...yet they're still generating profit because companies rely on them to run their businesses.

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      Oracle will probably keep Java alive just to spite us all.

      That's the kind of corporation that it is.

  7. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    Oracle quietly redeploying "software engineers" is just a sign that something else they sell is more broken.

  8. Ilsa Loving

    Lets be clear here..

    Oracle doesn't give one single nanometer wide shit about the community. They care about gouging as much money from everyone and anyone they can gouge.

    They want sole control of Java EE because that's where the money is for big corporations, and I imagine this whole JCP thing grates at them to no end.

    At least it finally occurred to them that if they did try to pull this idiotic little stunt, they would tank Java the same way they tanked MySQL, Hudson, OpenOffice, etc, and THAT would cost them a fortune because anyone who was even remotely flexible would drop Java like a hot potato.

  9. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    The money! The money! Won't somebody think of the money!

    The phrase "Enterprise Edition" usually means "so convoluted that you need to buy help." As I understand it, the Java EE set up the pyramid of training, certification, and consulting fees that made Java profitable to the owner.

    Maybe nobody is buying Java EE support anymore? Java seems to be popular enough that you can always find a library or a developer to provide a more elegant solution than what's in some of the EE packages.

    1. James Anderson

      Re: The money! The money! Won't somebody think of the money!

      Correction "some of the EE packages" --> "most of the EE packages".

      Pure java is actually reasonably nice to work with, EE is a bloated ill thought out committee designed monster which morphs into a differently bad ball of slime every five years or so as they try to fix past mistakes.

      Before you dismiss Java think of all that code running in all those Android phones running something exactly unlike java.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    (Untitled)

    // Remove major resource leak.

    java.lang.InstanceFactory.getInstance().dispose()

  11. swm

    Cross-Platform Graphics Application

    I do a lot of programming in Java so I can have cross-platform graphics. I compile with -target 1.6 -source 1.6 so I am compatible with older JVMs. If I don't need graphics then I would chose C++ - the STL is great.

    YMMV

  12. Dave 13

    Reciprocity's a bitch

    Oracle doesn't trust its own customers, why should they trust Oracle?

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