back to article Hey Windows 10, weren't you supposed to help PC sales?

Very few if any ever thought Windows 10 would truly reinvigorate the PC industry, and they were right - IDC has pulled down forecasts on traditional device sales for 2016. The analyst has clipped unit expectations by a couple of per cent, claiming global notebooks and desktops shipments into channels are now on course to …

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Why would Windows 10 invigorate PC sales when all your Windows 7/8 machines are being made to upgrade to Windows 10 for free and the system requirements are pretty much identical?

I mean, it's not even like you have to "buy a new machine for the new Windows" as an excuse any more.

If anything Windows 10 should have stopped PC sales dead in the water, because your old clunker is still able to be upgraded to Windows 10 without you having to do anything.

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"without you having to do anything"

You do need to click something or other right? and then next(many times?) and then I accept, and by that time you're feeling like you probably shouldn't...

My desktops will either run Win7 until they die, or Win7 runs out of support. Who knows, I may have already migrated the winboxen to some flavor of Linux... MS on the desktop is no longer an option at home.

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Stopping PC sales Dead!

Have you ever given any thought that this might all be part of the 'Grand (aka Cunning) Plan'?

Now that MS are PC makers with the SurfaceBook is it in their interests to let the likes of HP, Dell, Lenovo etc keep their majority share of the market?

It might be the plan that MS drive these out of the market and leave them as the only player in town.

After all, they want to be more like Apple (with their 30+% margin on hardware) don't they?

Blackadder would be smiling at the thought.

Del-Boy would be salivating.

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Anonymous Coward

We can only assume that the 3 down votes for what you posted are for not showing more hatred to win10, or using "m$" or "slurp" in your post.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

So cunning in fact as to be indistinguishable from madness.

They totally dominate the desktop and laptop market with the help of their hardware partners, and pull more than enough software and service revenue from that. You honestly think they would jeopardize that to sell a bit more low-margin hardware?

>> After all, they want to be more like Apple (with their 30+% margin on hardware) don't they?

Er. No. No they don't...

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getting it slightly wrong

"Why would Windows 10 invigorate PC sales when all your Windows 7/8 machines are being made to upgrade to Windows 10 for free and the system requirements are pretty much identical?"

in many ways, *THIS* proves a point, but not that windows 10 'up'grades are causing the problem...

"If anything Windows 10 should have stopped PC sales dead in the water, because your old clunker is still able to be upgraded to Windows 10 without you having to do anything."

But the 'old clunker', particularly if it's running Windows 7, is still a "good machine". *THEN*, you look at an 'Ape' (8) machine, or a Win-10-nic machine, and you say *errrgh* and stick your tongue out and DO! NOT! BUY! A! NEW! COMPUTER! because the *OLD CLUNKER* is *STILL* *BETTER* than either of those two systems, and it's getting HARDER to find a 7 machine with "new features" on it.

so why bother buying a new one? *EXACTLY*!

THAT is the reason Win-10-nic is *KILLING* PC sales, same as "Ape" did it. The *NEW* machines are *NOT* perceived as *BETTER*.

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Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

Oh Yes, they do... everything else would be pure stupidity.

They actually quite DESPERATELY need to become "more like Apple" because they are quite fast becoming not relevant.

Apple is making more money with less effort than Microsoft ever did... and are far more popular than Microsoft.

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3 down votes

No - they are probably from Surface users.

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I was in the local computer shop to get some parts. They're not one of the big boys but a very small local chain of 3 shops. What they're seeing is Win7 boxes and laptops flying off the shelves and it's been hard keeping up with the demand. They've also been selling PC's, etc. with Linux on them in what they consider "high" numbers. The Win10 stuff is barely moving.

One can still find Win7 at the big guys like Best Buy, but it's something you order and takes a few days for delivery. Nothing Win7 in the stores. I wonder if anyone is actually paying attention to sales numbers and what people want?

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Anonymous Coward

Exactly. I don't think a lot of people are going to buy new hardware just to get Windows 10. Microsoft is giving it to them for free on their existing machine. No argument to buy new PCs on hardware specs either, most people have more than they need there. I would say it is fairly neutral... Microsoft is probably picking off quite a bit of business with Surface from the OEMs. I'm not sure if that counts as a PC or a tablet.

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They aren't so much "giving it away for free" as they are trying to jam it into any unprotected orifice they can locate.

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We still run W8.1 on new machines we purchase (the odd laptop) as we exercise our downgrade rights. As for the bulk of our machines, they are very old OptiPlex 760s and 780's - 3GHz core 2 duos with 4GB RAM. They were given a facelift 18 months ago with 120GB SSDs (£45 per unit, Kingston). This has pretty much negated the need for any machines to be purchased, a chunk are over 5 years old and still going strong. Spares are plentiful and I can buy refurbished to plug any failure gaps.

There is simply no need to upgrade our machines (short of catastrophic losses). Sure it can be seen as storing problems for the future (they will die some time) but when budgets were slashed it was easier for me to repair and upgrade what we have - SSDs were a godsend (a dual core 3GHz is more than enough for internet/office/lightweight picture and video editing). Only our autocad suite were upgraded properly (even those only got refurbished i5s and cheap GFX cards)

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It HAS NOT worked, due to the shambolic way MS has handled it...

Shoving a half complete OS onto windows update, causing shocks and lost files, to say nothing about a 'simple windows update' taking hours to complete, it then does a restart, taking another hour, then says, resources incompatible' and proceeds to 'restore to last system' taking another few hours!

(Personally experienced, on an old laptop, that most 'low income' people use!!!)

And how about the poor guys, using a *limited download* dongle on their PC to save money due to low income??? - they are very hapy with the limit, they dont do that much internet...

- then windows starts doing 'update' of 2 or 3 GIG!!! (user thinks it is just update, not whole OS!!) -

- He gets back to PC, finding he has run out of downloads... >:(

IF MS had just released a Disc with it on, it may have been received better.... :/

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Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

Not really. They basically make only three systems:

An Atom tablet pc with NTrig (Surface/3)

A core-i tablet pc with NTrig (Surface Pro/4)

A 2-1/convertible with NTrig (Surface Book)

They do not produce a simple notebook or desktop, they do not have a WACOM unit (and some people prefer WACOM), no "rugged" systems and only "low power consumption" CPU so not the first choice for a "replaces all" unit either. That leaves quite a bit of market for the others. And MS is not cheap, the units are priced relatively close to some of the competitors systems of similar capabilities.

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Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

"Apple is making more money with less effort than Microsoft ever did... and are far more popular than Microsoft"

Eh?

What planet is this on?

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Well, a 2011 core-i unit runs Win10 just fine, actually a bit faster and with less memory needs that it ran the original Win7. So why get a new unit if I do not need some special features (like MiraCast)?

As for the Surface - my guess is MS will take from the OEM in the privat sector (Surface/3 and Surface/Pro are in the big chains Mediamarkt/Saturn here in D) and less from the companies that buy "one source". Ie all our units are Lenovo and that includes tablet pc (Thinkpad/10 and some Helix-B)

And in the privat sector they mostly take from iThingy and Fandroid. The latter is happening quite a bit around here since even a used TPT10 will run circles around any Andy tablet or tablet-pc once you need more than one complex PDF open or review/comment a more complex document.

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Re: Stopping PC sales Dead!

Which part of it did you not understand ?

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Re: What planet is this on?

I took that to mean "far more popular with their users".

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Slow news day?

Don't we have this or a similar article every 3-4 weeks? I guess it's better than the usual "10 Top Tech Fails" lists you usually see on other sites on such days.

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WTF?

The Purpose of 10

I understood the idea of 10 was to re-launch the Windows store which was to push, sell or whatever its 'apps', (Appliances?, Apologies? Apostrophes? Apparatus? or whatever). As such I guess the thinking was that it had to get the greatest number of users ASAP.

Is someone now saying that it was intended to sell more hardware? At least being a 'cross over OS' perhaps they thought it might open a bridgehead for future hardware upgrades.

However, expecting magic hardware numbers from a very depressed and rather direction-less market was never going to be an assured success.

If the hardware cannot sell itself, why should the OS sell unwanted stuff?

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Facepalm

Re: The Purpose of 10

The purpose of Windows 10 is to stuff ads down users throats at OS level.

Microsoft are always late to the party, and when they finally get there find it changed to fancy dress but no-one told them. This time they've seen how their entire business is headed toiletwards so think they can do a Google.

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Re: The Purpose of 10

"Is someone now saying that it was intended to sell more hardware?"

If you were a H/W manufacturer this is exactly what you'd think it was for.

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Re: The Purpose of 10

Asparagus? Armadillos? Amadeus?

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Re: The Purpose of 10

Not really. The shop is the same, the Win8.x apps run on W10. W10 HAS a better integration of the two worlds (Tablet and Desktop), blurs the line between classic applications and apps a lot and actually added a few nice DESKTOP features to the mix. But it runs classic desktop software just fine and most of the time even a tad faster than Win7.

Win10 gets interesting when/if Universal Apps start coming out and that depends on W10 hitting the phones. We'll see...

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Re: The Purpose of 10

"Win10 gets interesting when/if Universal Apps start coming out and that depends on W10 hitting the phones."

So never then. Assuming "hitting" means also getting some uptake.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Purpose of 10

"If the hardware cannot sell itself, why should the OS sell unwanted stuff?"

Yes, it became a convention just to upgrade OS with the new hardware, but it seems like that link is broken. PC hardware specs are overkill for most people. It actually makes a case for people to buy premium gear which lasts longer (e.g. ThinkPads or SurfaceBooks instead of Dellapart) and just upgrade the OS. I would rather have one ThinkPad X1 Carbon or SurfaceBook than two Dells over six years. Same price.

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My next machine will be a desktop.

I want a main board capable of supporting at least 32GiB of RAM, a quad core CPU that runs at least 3GHz, a dedicated Gigabit LAN port, and enough room for a fat SSD.

Right now if I want that in a laptop then I'm going to pay through the nose, but if I want that as a desktop then the manufacturers will nearly fall all over themselves to make the sale.

I can get more bang for my buck through a desktop, can increase the warranty period to greater than a mere year with the money I save versus getting a laptop, and can expect the machine to still be running long after said warranty expires.

In order to get a laptop that'll last as long I've got to go the Thinkpad route, & Lenovo seems intent on charging a pretty penny for the "honour" of getting my hands on one.

Screw that.

I want something with specs that will maul whatever I throw at it, Gigabit LAN so I can connect to the network without paying for a dongle to replace a function they've eliminated under the guise of "thin & light", and don't want to pay an arm, leg, tentacle, nor First Bourn Child to acquire.

Is it _really_ so difficult to understand that I want a machine that Just Works, lets me Get Shit Done, & doesn't get in the way?

Because I'll be buying said desktop as one *WITHOUT* any Windows on it Thankyouverymuch, I'll purchase it through one of the vendors that will put some form of *Nix on it, configure it so it Works Out Of The Box, & doesn't piss me off like my current Windows machine.

I don't want to spend the first part of my morning (each & every bloody morning) checking Windows Update for the latest disguised scumware-cum-security-patch, I don't want to waste my time on an OS that keeps thinking it can do whatever the hell it likes with MY computer, and I want a machine that doesn't phone home every time I blink or (not) look at it funny.

So those analysts may have gotten something right for a change: desktops might decline because Win10 runs on older hardware, but I no longer care.

I'll still buy a desktop, it just won't come with Windows on it.

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

But more, much more than that, you can have a screen that is better that "HD", or the sub-HD pish the push for most laptops under £500 or so, and more like the resolution a good CRTs could manage around y2k

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

@PC

I can confirm that Mint looks quite good in 3440 x 1440 :-D

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Anonymous Coward

Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

>> but I no longer care.

Neither do we. Why did you think we would?

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

I want something that will work with Oculus Rift. Currently it looks like anything that does the job well won't be a sensible price till the end of this year. It certainly won't be a laptop, even one with an external GPU.

This could be the next PC war, but it is unlikely to be very high volume. Office workers in headsets blundering round and bumping into one another while trying to sit on chairs that aren't there might be amusing, but not practical exactly.

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

A laptop with an external GPU is like buying a mini and towing a 4x4 behind it.

Or buying a sports car, and pulling an articulated lorry.

PC with a proper GPU, is like a racing truck! :D

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Happy

Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

"I don't want to spend the first part of my morning (each & every bloody morning) checking Windows Update for the latest (etc) ....."

Have you actually tried Linux yet? You will be in for a shock! I have just installed, as I write this post, the latest 3 item update to my Mint desktop. It was completed from start to finish in less than 3 minutes, on a 10 Mb line, from me entering my system password to the "Your system is up to date " message. No stopping what I am doing, no nag screens, no interminable tick boxes, no reboot required.

Why does ANYONE still use Microsoft?

P.S. Linux runs much better on "obsolete" hardware than Windows ever did. "Obsolete" is a term I now reserve purely for Microsoft.

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

If you want a good **powerful** desktop, DO NOT go thinkpad, lenovo, or ANY 'ready made' PC..... those are made to a price, NOT a spec..

It is VERY simple to 'make your own' PC.. some web companies will even build it FOR you, to parts you have selected from their website!!

overclockers.co.uk got me a 3Ghz I5 with all the extras for half the price of most shop bought ones!! :)

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

"I'll still buy a desktop, it just won't come with Windows on it."

Then you won't get:

"a machine that Just Works, lets me Get Shit Done, & doesn't get in the way"

Choose Linux, choose an OS as your new hobby...

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

"I have just installed, as I write this post, the latest 3 item update to my Mint desktop. It was completed from start to finish in less than 3 minutes, on a 10 Mb line, from me entering my system password to the "Your system is up to date " message. No stopping what I am doing, no nag screens, no interminable tick boxes, no reboot required."

Strange - looks precisely like my Windows (8.1) experience...

"Why does ANYONE still use Microsoft?"

See above...

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

Because the Penguin has

+ No/beta level support for Wacom/Ntrig digitizers

+ No real equivalent to Lightroom (Nope, Darktable does NOT

+ No real equivalent to Photoshop or even Photoshop elements

+ No equivalent to the full OneNote (or even MS Journal)

....

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

@mmeister

And of course every one of those items are common on all PC's

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

An OS as your new hobby? What are you doing with Linux that it is consuming so much time you could consider it a hobby? I run Linux and I just sit down and use my PC for whatever I want to use it for. Other than that it gives me no issues to deal with. It just does what it does.

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Re: My next machine will be a desktop.

I do not care about ALL PC. All I do care are MY units and MY needs (Unless payed for that I care about other peoples PC as well)

And for ME - those items are enough to drown the penguin on desktop/mobile units (including phones). Servers get SOLARIS anyway...

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Linux

Somehow the Win10 autoinstall or nagware managed to kill my Win7 desktop (guessing it was that as when I try to recover the installation I get a you're running a newer version of Windows error and refuses to budge). Have been booting into my Linux drive and have been meaning to getting round to fixing it. That was over two months ago and aside from a few games, I don't really miss it.

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Improve PC Specs

Perhaps if they want us to buy newer PCs then they should release new CPUs that are actually worth buying. A lot of the games available now are still playable on 5 year old CPUs, they need newer GPUs but so do the newer PCs so why bother upgrading.

Still running an i5-2500k at home and it does everything I need. Since this came out Intel have gone from 32nm to 14nm but the actual speed has gone up 200mhz, no increase in cores etc either.

Unless the PC goes BANG I can stay with what I have and be happy.

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Re: Improve PC Specs

Or maybe some laptops with better displays for other than DVD watching, you know like Google pixel, etc?

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Re: Improve PC Specs

Yes, why do laptops have such crap display resolutions when a basic smartphone comes with a 1080P screen?

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Re: Improve PC Specs

Can a chromebook play a DVD? I've got a few around, and the requisite USB-attached DVD drive, I've just never had the need to try. Maybe I will.

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Re: Improve PC Specs

IMHO, the average PC Punter (who shops at places like PC-World) does not want to spend more money on a Laptop than they do on a phone. This the cheapo end of the laptop ranges is built down to a spec that is as low as possible and yet give the supply chain at least a modicum of profit.

1366x768 laptop should be consigned to history. Sadly this won't happen.

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Re: Improve PC Specs

Quote: "Still running an i5-2500k at home and it does everything I need. Since this came out Intel have gone from 32nm to 14nm but the actual speed has gone up 200mhz, no increase in cores etc either.

Yup, this ^^^

My last major Desktop PC update (triggers broom style) was in early 2013.

New MB, CPU and Memory, everything else (HDD, GFX, case etc) was a carry over.

At the time I fitted an i7 3770K, stock speed is 3.5 GHz.

About a year later I fitted a liquid cooler (Corsair Hydro H60), and the CPU has hummed along at ~4.3GHz since, without issue.

The latest Skylake 6700k (14nm), has a stock speed of 4.0 GHz.

So 500Hz more than a stock 3770K, but 300Hz less than mine is currently running at. So I'd have to OC the 6700k to even match my current 3 year old system*

So an update just isn't really worth it.

* Yes I'm aware there are other benefits to the newer CPUs, but it's just not worth the time, effort or money to upgrade from the 3770K currently, and it's rare the CPU is ever the bottleneck.

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Re: Improve PC Specs

well, the effect of Moore's Law *broke* a while back, then in response, Microsoft release windows 8. the rest has been a *BAD* *JOKE* about how nobody perceives NEW machines as being "that much faster", _ESPECIALLY_ if a *GARBAGE* OS that consumes MORE resources and RUNS SLOWER [because of "the METRO", and all of those 'background things' MS decided to add, even MORE in Win-10-nic than in 'Ape' (8)], the "faster CPU" isn't helping enough to counter Microsoft's new levels of INEFFICIENCY embedded in the OS.

So the new computers don't SEEM to run 'faster' to most people, and an APE or Win-10-nic interface is CERTAINLY not BETTER [nor "modern"].

result: NO SALE

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Improve PC Specs

@ bombastic bob

You are aware that ever since the debacle that was Vista. MS have put a lot of effort into code optimisation, for both speed and memory utilisation? There are many benchmarks out there that demonstrate this.

PS: I'm still on Win 7, as I like the OS, but I'm also aware that sticking 10 (or even 8.1) on the same machine would improve the speed, but not the user experience.

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