back to article Microsoft's done a terrible job with its Windows 10 nagware

When Microsoft let slip that it had snuck some new Windows 10 upgrade nagware into a security patch, we asked Redmond to explain just what the offending patch was about. The company's response leaves us with a simple conclusion: all the nagware that's been irritating people for months was a botched effort. In fact, Microsoft's …

Anonymous Coward

Indeed

I've stopped taking Windows Updates on my Windows 7 boxes.

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Re: Indeed

This is the biggie. Windows 7 is supposedly still being supported. If you can't trust the support or have to do significant work to weed out the junk, then what does "supported" actually mean? And what's the next trick they're going to pull?

Given the huge public concern about the trustworthiness of their computers and phones - and the huge amounts of money that corporations pay Microsoft for the "comfort" of "support" it seems like madness to undermine what you claim your customers are paying for - integrity and reliability.

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Anonymous Coward

Microsoft can have BOTH.

I don't see why Microsoft have not realised that they can have BOTH their cake and eat it.

Free upgrade for sheeple with all the spy ware and telemetry and automatic updates. (home, or whatever version you want to call it) and sold as the pre-installed version on consumer boxes going forward.

Paid "Boxed retail" and "Volume licence" versions for people who want the privacy or Businesses that need it for regulation compliance where the telemetry and spyware can only be installed by an OBVIOUS and LARGE and "are you sure this is a BIG risk?" separate option at install also options to NOT install stuff like XBOX etc as why would a business want or need these. And updates must be optional and CLEAR. HONEST and ACCURATE and separated in to security, patches, new features, upgrades. so confidence can "slowly" be regained.

free/ consumer version will become the norm and "as a service" version and the other (boxed and volume licence) would be unknown to the masses and would be a pay to upgrade version that MS could resell say every 5 years with a shorter EOL time compared to old versions to try to get people moving more rapidly from version to version.

Office is what keeps a Large number of companies and users attached to Windows and now with versions for MAC and Android and office 365 in the browser there are fewer reasons to stay.

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Re: have BOTH their cake and eat it.

Because they can't.

The writing is on the wall. Windows as we have known it is dead. (As in dead dead, not mostly dead. Even Miracle Max Steve Bill can't save it.) If you look at any established industry it has a high growth curve from inception to wide adoption. Once it achieves wide adoption the curve levels off. There is no magic way to return to the growth curve. The expectation of the stock market AND Microsoft is that their growth rate adoption will continue indefinitely. So by all their metrics their business is failing. On top of this, the market is mature. There's not really a lot you can add to the OS to improve functionality in the way you could before. Which means Windows 7 is all the consumer really needs. But if that's all the consumer needs and his hardware lasts for 5 or 7 years instead of the 3 or 4 which has been the normal until about the time Windows 7 was released, you're taking another hit on the bottom line. So they're trying to switch to the monthly subscription model to sustain revenues. And for that very same reason, the consumer is unwilling to switch to the monthly subscription model. Windows 10 is their last desperate attempt to force people onto the monthly subscription model. So its uptake has been even slower than it would have been for a paid only version that wasn't working to switch to a new pricing model.

The crap interface is jut toadstools on top of the excrement sandwich.

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Re: Indeed

I don't blame you. Windows update has gone full malware at this point.

It's basically impossible to uninstall compattelrunner and its ilk and keep them uninstalled, Windows update won't take "no" for an answer. I hope it's possible to take them to court for this behaviour, surely installing things on your computer requires some kind of consent?

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Headmaster

Re: have BOTH their cake and eat it.

""Windows 10 is their last desperate attempt to force people onto the monthly subscription model.""

Windows 10 WON'T BE their last desperate attempt to force people onto the monthly subscription model, this is but one more of many to come.

There fixed it for you.

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Anonymous Coward

@AC - Re: Microsoft can have BOTH.

Did it ever cross your mind that Microsoft has to show Wall Street they have a large mass of captive users they can monetize at will in the form of a steady flow of revenue ? This is how Facebook, Google, Apple and others are doing it. In order to avoid being penalized for the loss of revenue generated by giving away a full fledged OS, Microsoft had to convince the analysts they will make hand over fist full of money as soon as everybody will be on board Windows as a service.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Indeed

"adding in-house nagware to security updates "

It's nagging you install a security update though. Windows 10 is after all basically a very large security update.

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Re: Indeed

> I've stopped taking Windows Updates on my Windows 7 boxes.

I haven't, because some of the updates *are* actually beneficial.

However each "Important" update is checked out carefully to see if there's nagware included or, worse, that a previously rejected (and hidden!) update has suddenly reappeared in another guise.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Indeed

> I've stopped taking Windows Updates on my Windows 7 boxes.

We are required by the FDA to not do windows upgrades .

But we are required by the same agency to do all security updates

Waiting for the first "upgrade to Windows10" popup to appear across the screen in the middle of a surgery.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: have BOTH their cake and eat it.

Unfortunately as the Masses think OS are either Windows, Apple or Android. Windows will be in a coma on life support for many more years and windows releases to come.

Microsoft needs both Business and Consumer sales. with telemetry they are making it hard or impossible for Businesses to comply to regulations with Windows 10,

Businesses need Users to have windows at home as they then have a base of users who do not need time and money spent on training them to use the basic tools required for work.

If running windows becomes too costly for Businesses either due to regulation difficulties due to telemetry and spy ware or training costs for staff they will change to a product that reduces the cost burden to them.

With so many business tools now being browser based either from a cloud or local server then the OS becomes totally irrelevant and it comes down to what costs less in training, licencing and management. so Linux with OpenLDAP and a MS Office web-tools server on site (or office 365 subscription :-( ) will provide the majority of low level users needs and if a company wants to spend money on user training (and don't have complicated Macro's) then Libre office or other alternatives are available.

The Balance will Tip sometime but i dont think it is the Year Of Linux on the Desktop yet.

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bep

Re: Indeed

I used to keep my home computer updated on a weekly basis. I've just given up because Microsoft have made it far too hard to weed out the genuine security updates from the other crap. This is not a good outcome for me, for Microsoft or for the rest of the internet that might get cross-infected by whatever trojan or virus my computer now acquires, but Microsoft have succeeded in making me not care. Some result.

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Re: Indeed

Seriously? You're reading a tech news website, and you don't know how to disable GWX without crippling updates completely?

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Re: Indeed

I was trying to remove the KB3035583 update from a friend's computer (the update downloads the installer for Windows 10 and keeps nagging to install Windows 10). I uninstalled it 3 times and after each required reboot it reinstalled. I eventually got it uninstalled and hidden, but it keeps unhiding itself, although it is in the optional updates). I've noticed there are 2 or 3 more updates that are there to help in determining Win10 compatibility. I try to keep those away too for those computers I absolutely need to keep on Windows 7 for the foreseeable future.

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Re: have BOTH their cake and eat it.

"With so many business tools..."

Well that rather sums it up.

"...Linux on the Desktop yet."

That made me laugh. It was the "yet" bit that made me chortle.

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Re: have BOTH their cake and eat it.

Bigger businesses will use WSUS though and if you have any sort of "server" then I would seriously recommend WSUS. It has the side effect of keeping W10 nags away.

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No need to stop updates. . .

. . . .just install the "GWX Control Panel". And, suddenly, Win10 nagware and downloads disappear.

Google it by name, I see it available on lots of sites. . .

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Silver badge

Re: Indeed

and NOW, "security update" must ALSO be properly vetted, before it ends up on my 7 boxen. I'm a software developer, and I typically need a "stable platform" that does *NOT* accidentally download ~6Gb of UNWANTED EXCREMENT by stealing my bandwidth in the background, nor CHANGE ITSELF without my permission.

For accounting (which I can't use MSDN license keys for) I recently purchased a reconditioned box (for cheap) with 7 Pro on it. Turbo Tax won't support XP any more. I *DELIBERATELY* didn't get one with "Ape" (8) on it, and *ESPECIALLY NOT* 10. I don't *EVAR* use I.E. [it's like the intarweb equivalent of unsafe sex], so I don't need "that" security update [it remains UNINSTALLED]. Its predecessor is a cheap XP box from 2007, which is malware free because I don't surf the intarweb with it (especially NOT with IE).

On the 'new' 7 box, after 2 days of updating, I had to re-hide KB3035583 at least once. yeah, it came back, like a turd that won't flush, after I hid it the first time. Haven't seen it since, though.

I figure that by the time Microsoft *LOSES* their OS near-monopoly to Linux or "something else", Turbo Tax and other accounting software will be installable on THAT OS. I've bought some time.

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Re: No need to stop updates. . .

". . . .just install the "GWX Control Panel". And, suddenly, Win10 nagware and downloads disappear."

Not quite...

Whilst "GWX Control Panel" does a very good job at sorting out the mess of W10 update. This last two weeks I've had "GWX Control Panel" flag that among the updates have been updates that have re-enabled automatic W10 upgrades. Fortunately, due to "GWX Control Panel" being able to run in monitor mode as a service, I've been warned of these changes and so can revert them to my preferred settings.

I do hope the guy who wrote "GWX Control Panel" is celebrating a decent sized windfall from those who have made a donation...

NB. The lasted version of GWX Control Panel is:

Version: 1.7.2.0

Date: January 24, 2016

You may wish to check that your installation is up to date.

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Re: Indeed

On the 'new' 7 box, after 2 days of updating, I had to re-hide KB3035583 at least once. yeah, it came back, like a turd that won't flush, after I hid it the first time.

The Git has a wart on his left thumb called Graham (after a cow-orker) and it has persisted through many, many rounds of freezing, burning with acid, gouging etc over the last ten years. Every time I think it's dead at last, it just comes back. KB3035583 is the Graham of computing. Every time you think you've knocked it on the head, zombie-like it reappears. Worse, it reappears in your dreams! MS has created a nightmare... God how they must hate us!

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Re: the Masses think OS are either Windows, Apple or Android.

Introducing new "Android for PC" - you loved it on your phone, now you can use it on your laptop and desktop too.

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Re: the Masses think OS are either Windows, Apple or Android.

Another shite thing is that although W10 wont be affected by WSUS enabled PCs (i'm not even sure domain PCs are safe anymore, I think you need WSUS to be completely free of the nag) this doesn't help when you are creating a golden sample (or updating the golden sample). I had to root GWX out of the beast on our golden sample as it merrily nagged away when I was installing updates to a software package. That is just plain annoying.

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Re: have BOTH their cake and eat it.

"I dont think it is the Year Of Linux on the Desktop yet."

It might be this year. Well sort of - Microsoft apparently plan to support Ubuntu running under Windows 10!

I think the idea is that developers can easily access their legacy text based *NIX command line tools that work well for say AWS and that some prefer over the more modern object orientated Powershell in Windows...The ultimate objective presumably being more Windows boxes and fewer *NIX boxes.

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The Terrible...

...thing they've done is to not recognise what their users wanted, namely Windows 7 with modest technical improvements. I actually paid for Windows 7 retail licenses, and would do the same for something similar.

Instead they've got off on the idea that we'd want to put our data in their cloud, be profiled in our usage and turned into lumps of meat for sale in the advertising market to the highest bidder, admire the toy land look of the remaining vestiges of Metro, buy apps from their store, etc, etc, all just to make the OS 'free'.

Bollocks.

The sooner they realise that the old way worked and the new way doesn't, the better for them and their bottom line. The PC market is dead-ish because of Windows 8/8.1, and 10 is demonstrably not the thing to revive it. 14% share and it's free? If anyone wanted it, craved it it'd be closer to 90%.

I'm seeing friends and colleagues drifting of to Mac who were previously the most ardent Windows users. I may go Linux, and if they ever do Office / Outlook for Linux then I'm outahere. (Open Office is just not very good).

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Re: The Terrible...

LibreOffice suits me fine. I've moved all my "clients" (big word for a number of not very computer savvy people I support) to Linux. No complaints from anyone.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Terrible...

Alas there's no equivalent of Outlook.

Th only realistic way of getting a fully integrated mobile/desktop email/calendar/contacts/etc experience whilst avoiding Google and Apple and other data slurping clouds is to rent an Exchange server. Outlook is very good at that kind of thing, and Evolution and Thunderbird just suck in comparison.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: The Terrible...

I use OpenOffice here at El Reg. It's fine for the light typing I do - never need formatting here at The Reg. The spreadsheet syntax is close enough to Excel that I can translate. Rubbish for presentations. Apple Keynote for that!

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Re: What users want ...

... doesn't matter to Microsoft.

Google has more market share than Microsoft, and Apple has more revenue. Google works giving things away for free and selling adds. Apple sells an expensive walled garden. Microsoft have decided to copy Google and Apple. bazza and a million other previously content Windows users are now third in the queue at best (behind advertisers and commercial licensing) when it comes to what Windows N+1 will do.

Ranting isn't going to fix anything. What you can do is make purchase searches on Amazon (already common) and information searches on Wakipedia (probably the first useful link in search results anyway). If you take the users from Google/Bing, then the advertising revenue will wander off and Microsoft will have to rethink where their money will come from.

If you have a problem with LibreOffice, then fix it - you have the source code and a license to use it. Personally, I use reportlab+python, but each to his own.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What users want ...

Google no longer sells ads only. Google gathers and sells data. The same game Microsoft is attempting now. There's a huge demand for people data - and not only for advertising.

The idea everybody should "fix" FOSS code to use it is utterly stupid, truly nerdy, and blind-sighted. An idea born into the minds of people who believe the world turns around IT and coding. People needing a reality check.

Just a few have the skills and the will to work on complex software. That's why there are people *ready* to pay for commercial software, as long as it fits their need. If you're, for example, an interpreter/translator like my sister is, you have really no clue about programming languages even if you proficiently speak and write four different human ones. Nor she wouldn't like to spend her free time again at a PC trying to fix the tools she needs to use for work. She *wants* to pay for her professional tools and then being able to spend her free time whatever she likes.

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Silver badge

Re: What users want ...

Ranting isn't going to fix anything. What you can do is make purchase searches on Amazon (already common) and information searches on Wakipedia (probably the first useful link in search results anyway). If you take the users from Google/Bing, then the advertising revenue will wander off and Microsoft will have to rethink where their money will come from.

Ranting does help, it makes me feel better about it...

Whilst the measures you suggest may make MS sit up and pay attention, I'm not sure that they'd help in the long run. Sure, it would leave MS rethinking where their money comes from. But by then there may be no way back for them if they keep failing like this. That would leave no choice but to join the Borg, or something. MS and their shareholders should learn sooner rather than later that 'boring' is probably the best way of guaranteeing a future, and that rash "me too" experiments to grow an already vast business even further in ways that annoy the existing customers is asking for trouble.

With the ISPs beginning to wade in and get into the Ad blocking business, advertising funded IT may suddenly become impossible (commercially if not technically, or very messy). Getting a business onto a paid for and ad free footing now (you know, like they used to be) is probably going to be the smart thing to do right now. Amazon have that (Amazon Prime), Google don't, MS could, Apple sell hardware. Anyone left depending on frames downloaded from ad brokers Web sites for their revenue could find their business being held to ransom by the ISPs.

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Re: The Terrible...

@AC - I dunno about mobile - I'm sufficiently Luddite that I don't have email or web access on my phone. But this I do know - Outlook on my desktop at work is an absolute shite pain in the arse piece of crap that hinders rather than helps me to get my job done efficiently. I can't comment about the backend of the thing, but the UI is crap, and insufficiently customisable. Easily my most loathed Windows application.

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Silver badge

Re: What users want ...

> She *wants* to pay for her professional tools...

Ever considered donating money to a useful (for you/her) OSS project? By the way, professional and OSS are not mutually exclusive.

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Re: The Terrible...

"Alas there's no equivalent of Outlook."

You make that sound like a bad thing.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Terrible...

The terrible thing they've done is to not recognise what their users wanted, namely Windows 7 with modest technical improvements. I actually paid for Windows 7 retail licenses, and would do the same for something similar.

Ah, but you are assuming Windows is developed for you, which is not the case. Useful updates were Win95/98, Win XP and Win 7, but everything in between was just step changes to generate revenue.

Windows versions were developed to make you buy new copies, because that's what Microsoft used to make its money with (ditto for Office). That's why every version is never quite perfect, because you'd no longer buy the upgrade. It also shows in the amount of patch data you have to download - it was so much that they had to pack it together for a patch day so sysadmins could actually get somethings useful done in between.

However, there is only so much bling you can stick on a VW Beetle (which is what Windows as well as Office are IMHO), not helped by the disaster called Windows Vista which pretty much broke the obedient upgrade cycle for many - a lot of people suddenly started to wonder why on earth they should keep paying money for something they already had and that more or less worked the way they wanted it to (which includes the recognition that it does NOT get better with every version). Oh, and the cursed ribbon UI in Office.

In other words, the user herd was not keen on any more bloodletting, and any attempt at imitating other players in the market (Google with advertising, data tapping and search engine, Apple with controlled hardware and a more contained sales process) has not worked that well - you can enter a market when someone has just defined it and either steal their tech (Stack) or destroy their revenue (Netscape) but if the dominant players are really big, the usual bullying doesn't actually work.

It's pretty much the same position Adobe finds itself in: there's only so much you can add to a product such as Illustrator and Photoshop, and a one-off income from selling upgrades will eventually end (which is used nicely by Affinity, a Serif setup that has developed Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo which show enough new, raw power to hurt Adobe, and they're just at v1 with both).

Hence both Adobe and Microsoft moving to subscriptions, which requires defining software as a "service" and thus needs an online presence, with all the associated dangers for the customers but (as I said when I started) that doesn't matter, because this isn't for customers, it's for revenue.

Subscriptions have lots of advantages for the PROVIDER:

- tied in customers;

- no expensive sales process;

- opaque spending (it's a monthly cost so it doesn't trigger budget reviews, pretty much like a small wound can bleed for hours whereas a gushing stream will pretty quickly draw attention to itself);

- no NEED to provide upgrades (although you can pretend, of course, otherwise it won't sell)

- no need to invent new features to sell Yet Another Version

- nice, steady, stable monthly revenue stream

- possible creative taxation model: realise revenue where the service is located (at a guess).

Microsoft HAS NO CHOICE but to force its current users into its subscription model because they're already fleeing the platform in droves for a variety of reasons. People dropping Windows because it's STILL unsafe, and the alternatives are starting to become useful (not just OSX, Linux IS starting to make baby steps into small shops that simply can no longer afford the Microsoft tax), and the Office revenue was holed under the waterline since Star Office was released to the masses - especially since OpenOffice became LibreOffice it's been quite good (in my personal opinion, but you cannot pry Excel from a dead accountant's hands if it involves complexity although that also may be because they're finally familiar with it - another reason NOT to f*ck around with the UI to sell a new version).

It is thus not hard to guess why Microsoft has pretty much resorted to *ramming* Win 10 down everyone's throat: if it doesn't, it will eventually have no income left. It already had to set up a scam to make OEMs install Windows instead of alternatives (OEMs get punished financially if they dare offer options), and UEFI is not as optional as you think. Although it won the MSOOXML fight at ISO (to make it a "standard" by what IMHO can only be described as large scale bribery), it lost the overall battle as even the MS friendly UK government has made ODF the standard. MS Office handles that *badly*, but that's hardly surprising as Libre/OpenOffice and ODF have been pretty much developed hand in hand, and MS is a Johnny-come-lately who has never had to code to someone else's specification (unless it benefitted them - remember Kerberos?).

Just remember this when you see yet another attempt at downgrading to Win10:

a drowning man will not stop yelling .. until he drowns.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Terrible...

re.

they've got off on the idea that we'd want to put our data in their cloud, be profiled in our usage and turned into lumps of meat for sale in the advertising market to the highest bidder, admire the toy land look of the remaining vestiges of Metro, buy apps from their store, etc, etc, all just to make the OS 'free'.

They are right. A VAST majority of users either want the above, or don't mind it at all. Pretending the majority of worldwide MS users share the sentiment of the Register readership is just absurd.

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Silver badge

Re: The Terrible...

Hard not to agree with you, Bazza.

Fair play to MS with 8/8.1 - they tried something new. Although the counter-argument to that is if they'd listened all the way through their various beta testing they'd have heard loud and clear that in general, people don't want their laptop or desktop to look, feel and behave like their phone.

Windows 7 was actually a good release. It ran on relatively modest hardware and included some nice tricks that even made it feel quicker than previous OS's even if it wasn't. But more than that, it cleaned up on the horrors that they'd inflicted with Vista and the crappy "Vista ready" programme whereby PC's that clearly weren't capable of running it anything like well were deemed suitable.

Windows 10... I do have it on my personal laptop and I can't say I mind it all that much but it does have quirks and oddities but I do prefer 7. And that, to me, in and of itself is a worry as I've always enjoyed getting and playing with the latest OS...10, though, was more of an Ok, pop it on then if you have it as an option, otherwise pop 7 on.

But fundamentally it's not the way the OS looks or behaves that is caning MS here, it's the insidious tracking they've built into it and the way they refuse to come clean and tell people exactly how to turn everything off or what, exactly, they're tracking to begin with. And that, more than any nag screens or other 'issues' is why it's got such low market penetration. Trust. Lack of.

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Re: The Terrible...

@Jeffrey Nonken

It is. It's a complete deal breaker. Not because Outlook is any good, it's not. It's horrible but we've got an administrative and secretarial staff here that simply do not know, and will not learn how to use anything else.

Despite the fact that we have people with mailboxes running to over 50gig which completely flummoxes Outlook and makes it fall over about twice a week, we've had people down tools and go home - and then be backed by their boss that this was appropriate! - when we were forced to shut the outlook translator off for an update for a few minutes and it went wrong and we didn't get it back for a day.

They could have carried on working through the web interface, but they just won't and until we can convince certain parts of the world - or at least their managers - that there's more to booking meetings than using Outlooks shared calendars we're stuck with it.

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Silver badge

Re: The Terrible...

"...Not because Outlook is any good, it's not. It's horrible..."

Why? Why, exactly is Outlook horrible? Or, like many often do on here, are you remembering back to the likes of Outlook 97 which was pretty grim?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What users want ...

No, donating is different than paying for professional services. It's basically the difference between a charity and a professional organization. When you "donate" you don't really expect anything back - it's just showing your support. When you're a paying customer, you do expect a very different level of support.

Also, there's a big difference when a commercial company needs to find customers through appealing products, and when a non-commercial one is basically driven by the money of the largest donors - whose interests may be different from those of many users.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Terrible...

Outlook is like democracy: it's the worst system, except for all others. People who need to manage a lot of emails in some complex way find web interfaces just clumsy and too slow, while projects like Thunderbird are losing traction - because most of those email clients had been targeting the generic use and not the enterprise one.

The Outlook/Exchange combo has many features other systems lack, especially since there are no standards for example for server side rules and the like. Used as simple mail clients they may look average, but it's the integration of all the various parts that makes it useful. Of course you need the very expensive Exchange to take advantage of it - and you also need a skilled administrator, and to train people to take advantage of many features.

For example you don't really need shared calendars to setup meetings - room/resource mailboxes and meeting requests through the scheduling assistant are far better way.

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FAIL

Re: The Terrible...

Outlook

Fu** It. That's the only thing that's kept me locked into Windows, and it's not even that good.

But it does allow me to keep my diary in sync. And as that's less and less important to me these days so I may well be jumping ship pretty soon unless Microsoft push overboard first, with anoterh stupid stunt, of course.

All I wanted was an improved Win 7. Maybe a start menu that was easy to manage. A few useful bells and whistles ( like built in encryption for home users).

Instead, they've turned into this monster that seems determined to root out anything that the users might actually like about their software.

*Got a nice menu system in Office, that just needs to be a bit easier to simplify and manage? Make it more complicated and then make it really difficult for people to change it.

*Got an OS that people like and use - but needs a tidy up? Take away the bits they use most or hide them, then stick stuff they're never going to use in front of their faces or make it pop out at them if they inadvertently move the mouse a cm too far...

*Got an interface that people can control and personalise to their needs? Spread the controls into lots of different places with different methods to locate them

*Have a brand that has a reputation for working in a trustworthy and reliable way? Start being sneaky and manipulative, make random changes and "improvements" without saying what they are, while giving yourself a key to the back door and tapping the phone.

FAIL icon because there's no icon for deliberately steering a ship onto the rocks.

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Re: The Terrible...

Just wondering what you use for an email client/calender etc?

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Silver badge

Re: The Terrible...

> People who need to manage a lot of emails in some complex way find web interfaces just clumsy and too slow, while projects like Thunderbird are losing traction - because most of those email clients had been targeting the generic use and not the enterprise one.

Of course web interfaces are horrible, and they aren't even email. But I must totally disagree about Thunderbird and "projects like it"; I receive enough work emails to justify about 150 (sub)folders and maybe 60-70 filter rules, and neither Thunderbird nor Evolution have a problem with handling that.

Contrariwise, Outlook is a pile of poop, and such integration as its components do have is both inscrutable and unreliable.

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LDS
Silver badge

"By the way, professional and OSS are not mutually exclusive."

I agree - but there is a big difference between, say, the Red Hat model, and the LibreOffice one. The former does sell a professional product based on open source code. The latter aims for a more "anarchic" community model. Among the various open source companies and movements, there are some more commercial oriented, and others more political oriented.

Most users don't care what's behind the tools they use, but they do care about the tools they need to use to make a living. If you ask them to support your political agenda, only a few of them will care about that. The others will look for tools with the feature they need, the support they need, so, when they finished their work tasks, they can forget about them and live their lives as they like.

I would not go to a greengrocer shop that asks me also to grow tomatoes if it hasn't any, and share them with the community - if I buy from it is exactly because I don't want to go through the hassle of growing tomatoes myself, and if it can't sell them, I will look for them elsewhere.

Asking any user to "fix" code or donating in hope to get something in return one day - or even "donate to the cause because we want to change the world" is not professional. Delivering a product users need, and supporting it properly, is professional, regardless if the code is proprietary or not.

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Unhappy

Re: The Terrible...

and the sad thing is that the first Win10 preview builds were very much Windows-7 like, with a proper start menu. They also ran like the proverbial off a shovel, even on inadequate hardware.

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Happy

Re: (Leaving) The Terrible... (Microsoft behind)

I'm also seeing friends and colleagues drifting off... Yes, to Mac, but also to Linux, and at an increasing pace. In my case the move to Linux was triggered by businesses I dealt with making the move first, though to be fair I had been looking at it seriously ever since Vista. I went fully Linux about 5 years ago, and have never regretted it.

I don't know what your office requirements are, but for ours Libre Office 5 does everything we need, and very well. But that's just my view.

Like a lot of other commentards here, I used to get angry and frustrated with Microsoft. Now I no longer even think about them. They have become irrelevant. No more anger, no more frustration, much more peace and calm.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Terrible...

I never meant TB and projects like it are clumsy and slow - re-read what I wrote :)

I just meant they are not very actively developed and improved, i.e. the Mozilla Foundation is letting TB go because it no longer fits its business, Mozilla put too much emphasis on the consumer user, and too little on the "enterprise" one, even in its browser.

Moreover most mail clients never influenced server development for better integration of features. That's a long tale in mail development, where you often have separate SMTP, IMAP and POP servers, and mail clients, each developed separately with little integration among themselves. Unluckily the user sees the "mail system" as a whole, and expects it to work smoothly as such. And it usually expects groupware features as well. That "split" brain situation didn't help at all.

Also, if rules are client-side they are not enforced until you open the client and download emails. Server side rules are processed regardless of the client you use to access your email. Since I access my email from at least five different devices, it's not a small plus.

I've been using Outlook/Exchange since their early releases, and always found it more user friendly and reliable than Lotus Notes, and never found a better replacement to run a company groupware needs. Sure, for email alone it's probably too complex and expensive, and other tools are more than enough.

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Thumb Up

Re: The Terrible...

totally agree, have an upvote.

I am a Linux bunny for actual work and have never liked Apple with a passion because of the Jesus culture that surrounds what is actually just a phone, or a laptop. The whole Apple tax where you pay for the symbol.

However I want a good laptop and don't want effort of buying a windows 10 and converting to Linux. So after years of hating Apple I am sizing up a laptop. Because at least you know it works and you know the devil. MS are just rewriting definitions like untrustworthy and dubious.

Whole new level of creepy. Windows 10 might actually be okay, but I just have no faith or trust anymore in MS as a company.

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This post has been deleted by its author

Holmes

Re: The Terrible...

no standards for server-side rules like.. Sieve?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_%28mail_filtering_language%29

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