back to article France says 'non' to Wi-Fi and Tor restrictions after terror attack

The French Prime Minister Manuel Valls has ruled out introducing restrictions on public Wi-Fi and access to Tor as a response to the Paris terrorist attacks. Earlier this month, documents leaked to Le Monde suggested that the French police were asking for powers for the following (among others): Curtail public Wi-Fi Enforce …

Silver badge
Thumb Up

Bon!

That is all!

34
1
Silver badge

Re: Bon!

Oui!!!! The voice of rationality is heard. This is excellent and would hope that certain government on left side of the pond will follow suite and back off the security theatre.

15
0
Silver badge
Facepalm

Re: hspasm Re: Bon!

Well of course it's good they're not going to limit TOR seeing as it's already owned by the Five Eyes at will! Blocking it would just choke off a useful source of intelligence.

3
18

Re: hspasm Bon!

@Matt - it's not really. Yes, it can (under some circumstances) be trivial for the Five Eyes to locate Tor endpoints and traffic analysis can tell you which node is up or down. This accompanied by seemingly innocuous items like power usage (smart meters, anyone?) can help to locate the exact source machine but, and this is important, only if you know who you're looking for and what you're looking at before you start.

TOR can be broken but it's useless for fishing expeditions.

3
1

Re: Bon!

Internet freedom is only part of freedom, not the whole of it. Other measures might actually make it as far as being added to the constitution.

So much for the 'emergency'. A nice way of distracting people: threaten something that you never intended to do anyway to distract people from the other stuff going on.

https://theintercept.com/2015/12/12/terrorist-attacks-spark-crackdown-constitutional-changes-in-france/

0
0
Silver badge
Facepalm

Re: dogged Re: hspasm Bon!

"....it's not really...." Ahem! Dread Pirate Roberts would probably love to post a rebuttal -

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/21/7867471/fbi-found-silk-road-2-tor-anonymity-hack

0
1

Re: dogged hspasm Bon!

> Dread Pirate Roberts would probably love to post a rebuttal -

Which is an excellent example of the FBI knowing exactly what they were looking for before they even started looking, not to mention some extremely useful phrases to run against the encryption.

Paranoia is healthy in this day and age but it's better when you back it up with some research.

0
1
Silver badge
WTF?

Re: dogged Re: dogged hspasm Bon!

Seriously, did you read the article? The whole TOR system relies on numbers of relays to hide the traffic, but if you can fire up thousands of server instances you can own TOR, a capability easily within the reach of many educational institutions, let alone the NSA. And that's before we look at the smarter tricks they could play with the backbone.

0
0

Re: dogged dogged hspasm Bon!

I was going to explain but life is way too short.

Be happy or unhappy, Matt. Whatever works for you.

1
1
Silver badge
Facepalm

Re: dogrunningoffwithtailbetweenhislegs Re: dogged dogged hspasm Bon!

"I was going to explain but life is way too short....." COUGH*bullshit*COUGH! You could just type "has TOR been cracked" into Yahoogle and find any number of simple explanations you could have cut'n'pasted. Too much of an effort or were you too busy retreating at speed?

0
0
Go

Who wouldda thunk it?!

A government that's willing to tell the "security" types where to go?

13
1
Silver badge
Facepalm

Re: Trainee Re: Who wouldda thunk it?!

"A government that's willing to tell the "security" types where to go?" Yeah, it's like they completely dismantled Frenchelon too! Oh, wait - no they didn't. Here's a clue - this is political dressing for those glass things in the front of shops....

0
5
WTF?

@Matt Bryant Re: Trainee Who wouldda thunk it?!

Hey! I'm supposed to be the grumpy one here!

Sure nothing's perfect and yes Five Eyes won't be losing any sleep over this. However having seen successive governments falling over themselves to demand more powers for the securicracy, when we occasionally see one apparently declining to do this, it does seem like something worth mildly exclaiming over.

On the other hand, if you were just practising your Bah Humbug, you better get a move on - only 12 days left!

10
0
Slx
Bronze badge

Glad to see a bit of balance.

If we do some of these things we might as well just stick up a big "we are terrorised" sign.

Two fingers to terrorism!

10
1
Silver badge

In france it is three

Two fingers is in English, on the continent two fingers is erroneously misinterpreted as V for Victory.

This is a result of the local propaganda machines during the war and in the early post-war branding Churchil's public swearing into whatever they considered more palatable.

1
5

Re: In france it is three

We simplified it to one finger to get our point across. V for victory was great and all but those bloody tree-loving peacenicks ruined it and made it a bit of a peace sign over here.

Of course, you can still use two fingers here, it just means both hands are involved.

1
0
Silver badge

Good.

0
0
Thumb Down

"It seems...

"...the so-called cheese eating surrender monkeys can still teach the rest of the world a thing or two about how not to let the terrorists erode core principles."

ORLY?

Perhaps, because it's not tech related, El Reg has missed the fact that, under the current "State of Emergency" in France, their Police have been granted the power to conduct warrantless raids and they have been exercising this power with gusto.

Apparently they have carried out over 2,200 raids, closed three mosques, arrested 263 people for questioning and placed another 330 under house arrest.

Obviously they learned something between 1939 and 1944...

16
7
080

Re: "It seems...

"Apparently they have carried out over 2,200 raids, closed three mosques, arrested 263 people for questioning and placed another 330 under house arrest."

Nice to see they haven't just been sitting around waiting for the next time.

6
8
Bronze badge

Re: ORLY (not the airport).

@Graham Marsden

So if you were the French Minister responsible and the police and security services came to you with all their intelligence about known, suspected and possible jihadi supporters - what would you do?

The French decided on checking out, I guess, just about everything they thought could help. I don't think this means that they have forgotten about Liberté, Egalité et Fraternité. Perhaps it just means that they wanted to stop another massacre.

1
3
WTF?

@080 @Uffish - Re: "It seems...

> Nice to see they haven't just been sitting around waiting for the next time.

Oh good grief!

Imagine *YOU* were one of these people who had your door kicked in, were dragged out of your home whilst it was ransacked, who were questioned and accused of being a terrorist based on nothing more than your religion. How would YOU feel?

Would you just say "oh well, it's ok, if they catch one terrorist that makes it all worthwhile" and go back home to pick up the pieces of your life?

@Uffish

> the police and security services came to you with all their intelligence about known, suspected and possible jihadi supporters

Didn't you *read* the article? These were *WARRANTLESS* raids! No need to contact the Minister, no need to even get approval from a Judge, just "Round up the usual suspects"!

The actions of the French are just going to make the next attack *more* likely, possibly carried out by someone who has been seriously pissed off by one of these raids and become a prime target for radicalisation!

7
3

Re: @080 @Uffish - "It seems...

Seems like damned if you do and damned if you don't. But particularly if you do, as you tell it.

2
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: "It seems...

"2200 raids"

We don't really have a clue but let's go visit the usual suspects then.

It's amazing what the police get up to once Gestapo powers are legalised.

3
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: @080 @Uffish - "It seems...

"oh well, it's ok, if they catch one terrorist that makes it all worthwhile"

That's exactly what a cheese eating surrender monkey should say ;)

From a technical angle that's a lot of PCs and phones to go through. No doubt they can beat anyone who doesn't cooperate? You know, like what Jack Bauer would do.

0
1
Bronze badge

Re: "on nothing more than your religion"

I'm not French, I just happen to live here and I'm trying to be polite about my French hosts. These are just my opinions but I think that they are valid.

1. No-one was targeted purely because of their religion so cut that bit out.

2. No-one would like their house being searched or their mosque being closed, especially for no good reason. To be cold-hearted about it though, no-one could say that it was the end of the world for them.

3. You don't know France - this wasn't some local police chief doing this on his own initiative it was a direct, and I am sure detailed, order from the top.

The context is suicide bombers and kalashnikovs being used throughout Paris. Again being cold-hearted, trying to make sure that there wouldn't be another 130 deaths takes precedence over seriously pissing off a lot of innocent people.

Lastly, if there are any Moslems reading this, salamalikoum. Nothing has changed my opinion that you are a great bunch of people.

5
1

@Uffish - Re: "on nothing more than your religion"

> 1. No-one was targeted purely because of their religion so cut that bit out.

Really? Then how were they targetted? How many Churches or Jewish Temples were raided along with the 200 Mosques?

"Mr. Nogueras’s clients are all Muslims, and are in the S-files that register those considered possible threats to the state. Participants in all the major terrorist attacks in France this year were in the S-files, too, including those in the attacks on Nov. 13.

"But Mr. Nogueras says his clients, under the house-arrest procedure, are shouldering an intolerable burden that they do not deserve. Simple attendance at a mosque under surveillance can land someone in the S-files, he noted. The result has been a catastrophe for his clients, he said."

> 2, [...] no-one could say that it was the end of the world for them.

Oh well *THAT* makes it alright, then...!

> 3. You don't know France - this wasn't some local police chief doing this on his own initiative it was a direct, and I am sure detailed, order from the top.

“Police searches and house arrests can now be ordered by the Interior Ministry and the prefects” — local officials under the control of Paris — “without judicial warrant,” noted Bénédicte Jeannerod of Human Rights Watch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/24/world/europe/in-france-some-see-the-police-security-net-as-too-harsh-paris-attacks.html?_r=0

> trying to make sure that there wouldn't be another 130 deaths takes precedence over seriously pissing off a lot of innocent people. [...] Nothing has changed my opinion that you are a great bunch of people.

You're a great bunch of people who just have to knuckle under and not get too upset that, because of your religion and the actions of a few nutjobs, you're *ALL* under suspicion...!

4
3

Re: @Uffish - "on nothing more than your religion"

"Really? Then how were they targetted? How many Churches or Jewish Temples were raided along with the 200 Mosques?".

Since when have Israeli's been involved in terrorism in europe?

You sound like the 'ethnics' in the UK,who,when stopped under 'stop & search' complain of the police being 'racist' because they only stop those of a certain skin colour.

Try talking to an off-duty policeman what he thinks of this country,the answer's may well shock you to the core?

0
0

I'm glad there is some sense here - yet again we learn that 3 of the terrorists were known and investigated by French security services - if they already knew they were terrorists without needing to access encrypted communications, read peoples emails, snoop peoples voice calls - then clearly they don't need access to those things now. I have yet to hear any country put forward a solid reason they should be allowed backdoor access to well - everything.

20
1
Silver badge

Tc... tc... tc..

You are allowing the facts to get in the way of agenda. Naughty...

4
1

Dickheads Sans Frontières

When the alleged "good guys" act like a bunch of opportunistic hucksters, it's time to get a new batch of good guys. You might not do any better, but at least random chance is on your side. Sort of. A little bit. That aside, where was this Manuel Valls fellow when the French cops obtained 90 days of carte blanche authority to do pretty much whatever they want, including strolling into your home and searching it without any judicial review?

When the Colonies were attacked on September 11th, 2001, vice president Dick Cheney took every fucking idiotic wet dream he ever had about police powers and turned them into laws and executive orders. To the ever unsentimental Cheney, that attack was a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing less. We're still living with the effects of that hangover.

27
1
Bronze badge

Strolling Policemen

Personally, maybe because Paris is my local big city, I prefer strolling policemen to sleeping policemen - and much prefer either sort to the shooting kind.

Every country has it's examples of official wrong that will never be corrected. 'Bloody Sunday' and Jean Charles de Menezes in the UK, innumerable innocent black victims of policing in the USA etc etc etc.

French radio and TV reports highlighted the questionable justification of a lot of of the recent searches and arrests in France. This is not judicial oversight but it is oversight and, so far, I haven't seen any move to a police state and I have been wandering around Paris without worrying about guns and bombs.

Of course, some people see anything and everything as an excuse to fantasise about conspiracies but, please forgive me, I'm not one of them and your theories just sound like gobbledygook.

2
0

Simple political trick

Erm, they were never going to do the things in that leaked report anyway. It's a standard trick to release rumours of extreme policies so that you can look magnanimous when you don't implement what you were never going to do!

Unfortunately, here in Britain nobody explained the tactic properly to David Cameron and George Osborne so they plough ahead with daft policies only to be forced into a u-turn later...

9
2
noj

comments on ending comment

"It seems the so-called cheese eating surrender monkeys can still teach the rest of the world a thing or two about how not to let the terrorists erode core principles."

Don't worry. The US has nothing to learn from anyone, much less level headed politicians in Europe. Every ounce of sarcasm intended.

I do have a comment on the use of "surrender monkeys" and its not a very flattering one for anyone who uses it. How about having the most deadly military force currently on the planet present you with the ultimatum of submitting or having you and everything around you destroyed. What pray tell would you do?

I know the cowboys in the US would say they'd come out shooting and go down in flames, and its nice to be brave in imaginative scenarios, but the French didn't have the luxury of being able to hide behind thousands of miles of ocean. Because this enemy threatening to flatten anything that opposes it is very real, right on your doorstep, with the best killing machine on the planet. And all those guns and tanks are pointing right at your door. And you know they're not bluffing because they've already leveled anything that opposed them on their way to your house.

No, the truth of the matter is most of those self-righteous cowboys would pee in their pants and lay down their arms than see everyone they love die in front of their yes or worse still see them taken different camps, never to be seen again. I would surrender and so would you.

And would those same self-righteous cowboys develop one of the most effective underground resistance movements ever to help bring down the invaders of their country? Twice? In two World Wars and under two unbelievably harsh occupations the French organized underground resistance that were a key factor in ending both of those wars.

Perhaps an organized resistance would have been the response in the US and perhaps not. But I'd bet anything that those self-righteous cowboys who did surrender then fight back in resistance wouldn't later be called "cheese eating surrender monkeys" or anything else derogatory. They would be called heroes and martyrs and brave and they would be remembered as having put their lives on the line to save their country.

The term "cheese eating surrender monkeys" originated from an episode of "The Simpsons," a popular comedy show in the US. How fitting. Its easy to lob insults from 1000's of miles away. Especially when the closest you're country has ever been to being invaded, much less occupied, was a couple of balloons floating into California. Its easy but it also shows a total ignorance of history and a total lack of empathy for fellow man.

21
2
Anonymous Coward

Re: comments on ending comment

I wouldn't place the French resistance above the economic blockade of Germany in bringing aforementioned nation to heel during the wars.

2
0
noj

Re: comments on ending comment

Nor would I. And nor would I try to make a derogatory and historically inaccurate stereotype of it.

1
0
Silver badge

Re: comments on ending comment

"Especially when the closest you're country has ever been to being invaded, much less occupied, was a couple of balloons floating into California."

Hm, I seem to remember from history class that someone invaded the US and burned their Capitol City down in, oh, 1812, or there abouts?

4
1
Silver badge
Holmes

Re: comments on ending comment

The term "cheese eating surrender monkeys" originated from an episode of "The Simpsons," a popular comedy show in the US. How fitting. Its easy to lob insults from 1000's of miles away.

Yes, it did originate there. And it was satire there as well as here. How interesting that you missed that point both times.

3
1
noj

Re: comments on ending comment

@ Captain DaFt: I stand corrected. Thank you.

@ Steve Knox: I also accept that the term was used in the context of satire.

Your cooler and more historically correct heads prevail. Still, I do not care for the term and find it derogatory and demeaning, having encountered too many in the US who use it in that fashion.

1
1

Re: comments on ending comment

Plus, as is often overlooked, the experienced core of the French army had been sent north to protect Belgium and the Netherlands as that is where the German blow was expected to land. When the panzers came through the Ardennes instead, their supply lines were cut and the army was stranded. On the retreat, with what little heavy equipment that could be salvaged, they then parked themselves between the Germans and the BEF trapped at Dunkirk. It allowed the Brits to escape but by the time everything was said and done, the French army was used up. Freshly mobilized green troops and the remaineder of the gendarmerie were no match for the German armor.

Of course, the generals having their head stuck in WW I when it came to using armor did not help any, but that can not be pinned on the general population and those who did the dying in the field.

4
0
Silver badge

Re: comments on ending comment

Well said. It's nice to see historical fact used instead of name calling. The French, aren't that much different than anyone else in west except maybe more laid back in some areas and more arrogant in others. But history says they will be a staunch ally and a force to be reckoned with when needed.

As an American and one who respects history (we need to learn from it), the French have my respect.

1
0
Silver badge
Facepalm

Re: noj Re: comments on ending comment

"....And would those same self-righteous cowboys develop one of the most effective underground resistance movements ever to help bring down the invaders of their country?...." Sorry, but you've swallowed too much of the post-War Allied propaganda that was meant to relieve the French of the shame of 1940 (and their complicity in sending gypsies and Jews to the ovens). The majority of French people gave a Gallic shrug and continued as normal after 1940, whilst the south went one better and created the Vichy regime. Apart from the effective part of the Resistance being completely down to the work of Britain's intelligence services, there were two parts to the Resistance - the Gaullists, who did the majority of early work; and the Communists, who sabotaged French efforts to re-arm before the War, then sat on their hands (and in some cases worked with the Nazis) on the orders of Stalin in 1940, and later spent more time plotting the Communist take-over of France rather than fighting the Nazis. The Resistance is much lauded but the RAF's Newchurch Tempest Wing alone destroyed more trains and vehicles strafing in the single month of May 1944 than the whole French Resistance managed between 1940 and 1945.

0
0
Silver badge

Re: comments on ending comment

"Hm, I seem to remember from history class that someone invaded the US and burned their Capitol City down in, oh, 1812, or there abouts?"

.....and the young America was saved by whose armies? The French.

(P.S. Sorry about the proxy war ~ Yours, Europe)

0
0
Silver badge

Re: comments on ending comment

Speaking of WWI, it's worth taking a look at the actions of the French artillery during the battle of the Somme. They advanced their weapons, by hand, under fire, to reach vantage points to protect British troops... ...while the British Artillery fell back. Not many French soldiers survived.

You want to see heroes? You'll find them there.

1
0

Re: comments on ending comment

Good for you my friend,I like the French,I'm a 70 year old Englishman & I truly hate the UK.

IMHO, it has become the dustbin of the world.

I would not trust one single politician further than I could throw them.

'Religion' is an absolute fraud on the people in order to control them.

The 'royals' are nothing but a bunch of benefit scroungers with a sense of 'entitlement' par excellance.

Like America, this country is rotten to the core,only 'revolution' can save the west from it's absolutely corrupted politicians,the TTIP is the hallmark rubber stamp on that corruption,when it takes effect you can kiss european 'democracy' goodbye.

0
0

This post has been deleted by a moderator

Police pigs

I again recommend the use of trained pigs instead of police dogs in sieges such as St Denis. They are just as nasal when it comes to sniffing out explosives and they might give potential suicide bombers pause for thought that they may not get their 72 virgins covered in bacon.

12
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Police pigs

And I propose using only Israeli soldiers on the streets in Belfast - you know how these Christians feel abouit Jews.

0
4

Re: Police pigs

But are ye a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?

I sincerely hope we aren't housing any of our Syrian refugees there.

3
0
Silver badge

Re: Police pigs

>I sincerely hope we aren't housing any of our Syrian refugees there.

Why they will feel right at home,

Lovely friendly people who have been killing each other for hundreds of years over an obscure bit of theological divergence in the religion of peace.

They may even come to appreciate the culinary masterpeice of "gravy chip"

3
0
Unhappy

Re: Gravy chip

They'll be fuckin' 'ard put to find a decent curry anywhere in Belfast! Maybe a "Chinese?"

When I was last in Norn Iron in 2000 or 2001, I was reliably informed by an R.U.C. gentleman of my acquaintance that there were only three "Indians" in the whole country. And they were all shit, compared to the ones in the UK, at the time. Plenty of chippies and Chinese take aways.

"Indian cuisine" has improved massively here in S.E. UK in the last 10 years. Let's hope the same is true there.

As for Syrian cuisine? I suggest they bring their own pans. And recipes. And ingredients. And chairs.

Poor bastards.

0
0

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Forums

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2017