Thank You, Captain Obvious.
Report: VW Execs 'Knew' About Fuel Economy Issues Last Year!
Duh.
Volkswagen's top executives are alleged to have had knowledge that its cars were not as fuel efficient as it claimed a year ago, according to a news report. German Sunday paper Bild am Sonntag has claimed that VW pulled the Poloi TDI BlueMotion earlier this year after an 18 per cent discrepancy between its stated fuel economy …
>Why are we talking about fuel economy now? I thought the problem was with NOx emissions.
Lack of integrity often means you lie and cheat on more than one thing. VW is just terrible at getting away with it. Look at Nike. They are at the root of most of the corruption and doping in sport and are going to get away with it like they have always done. Granted VW arguably has more victims but no less ethics.
> Why are we talking about fuel economy now?
NOx emissions reduction requires higher fuel consumption (to a point) if you want to maintain power. If they achieve amazing fuel economy results and have been caught in other instances disabling emission controls, one is entitled to ask the obvious question.
@Werdsmith, the original problem was fuel economy. A consumer organisation in Europe noticed discrepancies, ran tests, still couldn't achieve the figures VW claimed and then asked its US counterpart to run the same tests. They had similar issues, plus they found the emissions were higher than stated. It all went downhill from there.
>claimed the firm's CEO's public promise of a 30 per cent emissions decline provoked them to cheat on the tests
First thing that always comes to mind in this situation is the board scene at the beginning of the movie Braincandy. "Is it ready or not?" Humans especially in groups (always with some self important asshole in charge) are sadly so very predictable.
I upvoted because in general that is true of the Bild - everything wrong but the jug sizes (and that only because inflation of the reported sizes would be kind of obvious.)
BUT there aren't usually any naked jugs in the Bild am Sonntag ( the Sunday edition of the Bild.)
The only truly lucrative funding in climate research is for the energy companies. Following big tobacco playbook they know they have to put a premium on it so the researchers can get over things like professional integrity. Bit like doing concussion research for the NFL.
I drove that POS as a rental last year. It was the most miserably underpowered and worst performing piece of junk I have ever driven. To put things into perspective - a 1.1l 1997 Vintage Micra would have felt like a Tornado jet by comparison. It should have been called Blue Slumber as it was clearly refusing to MOVE in traffic (Someone in VW needs to understand that MOVEMENT is something you apparently need to be called Motion).
The dash indicator was constantly grumbling that I have to shift into higher gear despite it refusing to accelerate even with the pedal into the floor. It had its mirrors sacrificed on the altar of aerodynamics to the point where each lane change needed a prayer to Virgin Mary before commencing the maneuver. All in all - a total POS. I was so happy to chuck the keys back on the Avis counter at the airport that I ended up forgetting my neck pillow on the rear seat so I could not sleep on the flight back.
All in all, I am not surprised in the slightest that the numbers were hideous in real life - if you have to floor the accelerator _AND_ downshift for nearly any maneuver, that will inevitably show up in a real life fuel consumption.
Truth to be told, 20 years makes a lot of difference (and not all for good). That 97 micra did not have to carry all the extra crap that's supposed to protect your a.. and environment (yep, even the disgraced VW is cleaner that that old thing). Old cars were lighter (=more fun in most situations but crash;), more predictable/linear in power (cable pull throttle vs all electric, NA vs turbo) with better steering feel (again, hydraulic vs electric). That said, my 15 Golf feels way snappier when pushed (fuel use goes through the roof) but I prefer 02 Focus' more linear power curve that does not mind lugging it (down to 1k rpm) and recovers without upshift (gearing may have something to do as well). Surprisingly, vw comes up on top when it comes to average mpgs (both are good by any standard). ABS, traction/stability control are new to me (but don't interfere with daily use). Mirrors have been sacrificed but at least windows are ok (as opposed to other new cars). All the other fancy toys I could care less but no choice there. And hopefully the added complexity (mine being rather basic trim) is not proportional to failure rate.
I'd like to have an old CRX but today we are fed the heavy SUV diet so Golf (or Polo) has to do. At least they still offer them in good 2 door flavor and with the stick - kudos to VW for taking this risk.
did not have to carry all the extra crap that's supposed to protect your a
Err - solid three stars on all tests on EuroNcap if memory serves me right so that model already carried a lot of what is the norm today in terms of vehicle body protection. Not all, but a lot.
The 1993 16 valve 4 cyl vvty 1.0l is also a not that far off from nowdays in terms of emissions. It achieves ~ 47mpg/150g CO2 combined without start/stop.
So to be blunt - the Polo Blue Motion is an example of marketing and branding driven development. It would have never left the assembly line in the days when VW did not have a brand development director equal in rank to head of engineering and on the board.
> I drove that POS as a rental last year. It was the most miserably underpowered and worst performing piece of junk I have ever driven.
I am sorry if I misunderstand, but I do not believe I would hire a Polo if my requirements were along the lines of power and performance. You could have chosen any of a number of other hire cars for that, including some by VW. The Polo is supposed to be a cheap, cheerful, and economic to run and maintain sort of thing.
Please correct me if I am wrong, as I have never actually driven a Polo.
> Former CEO Martin Winterkorn reluctantly quit
> as chief exec in September, stating: "I am not
> aware of any wrong doing on my part." "
> [engineers] had claimed the firm's CEO's public
> promise of a 30 per cent emissions decline
> provoked them to cheat on the tests by mixing
> diesel with the motor oil and inflating the car tyres."
Get me 30% savings you idiots or I'll hire me some engineers that can!
That's real leadership, not wrongdoing.
The CEO just pressures everyone else into doing wrong in a way that pleases his bonus criteria.
Of course that was also over a decade ago and indirectly due to similar cases the SCOTUS basically told the government they shouldn't actually hold companies criminally accountable for wrong doing (Arthur Anderson was the auditor of choice for villains everywhere, too bad they missed out on the mortgage meltdown bonanza nobody was responsible for). Now ethically challenged CEOs are the norm.
should have tested the diesels when fueled with a mix of rapeseed oil and white spirit (10:1). Most VW diesels have far better economy when burning veg oil than diesel. Sunflower oil smells nicer than rapeseed and gives even better economy, but is harder to start due to the higher flash point.
Depends on the model though - read up before you try. Get the wrong engine and you could mess it up big time.....
edit
PS thats vegetable cooking oil, straight from the bottle. NOT so-called biodiesel
always smells like a mobile chippy but seems to go okay.
You cannot do it with newer diesels. An old diseasel from 20+ years ago will run on anything. You may need a fuel tank pre-heater in colder weather as well as to insulate the fuel pipework under the body.
The new ones - not so much. The injectors can be clogged up very easily resulting in the ECU going nuts and feeding wrong amounts of fuel to a grand total of a very nice engine repair bill.
Because these rogue engineers had to be very, very powerful and their influence should have been very, very wide across the VW group. They asked Bosch to produce cheating firmware, sneaked it in to the otherwise pristine and immaculate VW change management process. They then secretly deployed the same code across selected models in different brands across the whole group. All that with absolutely no one realizing or even asking why their testing figures were magically better after the firmware change or why other models or even the competition did not hit the same or better figures.
VW management only have two choices: either admit they were cheating and aware of it, or else admit they were incompetent, ignorant and plain stupid. I guess that from a legal standpoint, the first option is not very attractive for them because you know, charges and all that. So they are going for the second, which from a professional point of view should mean the end of their careers and a big hit in their egos.
There's a third option, of course: it involves a combination of incompetence, greed and cheating with a fabricated story about rogue engineers going on their own as a backup plan. Details left to the reader.
"VW management only have two choices: either admit they were cheating and aware of it, or else admit they were incompetent, ignorant and plain stupid. I guess that from a legal standpoint, the first option is not very attractive for them because you know, charges and all that. So they are going for the second, which from a professional point of view should mean the end of their careers and a big hit in their egos."
Not surprised they went that route. Method number two has been the go-to policy of most governments for as long as I can remember (well, minus the part about actually admitting to it), and you don't see too many (western) political leaders in jail, do you?
And for the record, people with egos that big can't actually have their egos deflated. That would require they actually gave a crap about what the average Joe thinks.
Its a sad fact that to get to any senior position of power these days, one has to pretty much be a sociopath. Otherwise, they'd never get close to the position in the first place.
"So they are going for the second, which from a professional point of view should mean the end of their careers and a big hit in their egos."
It is my unscientific observation that when you reach a certain level in the pecking order then incompetence or failure is not a major career problem. You get gardening leave and a golden parachute - then apparently are welcomed into a similar position elsewhere. There you fill a slot recently vacated by someone else who had proved less than capable.
It could also be a bit Prussian thing. Remember, German military has a tradition of consistently winning battles, even when outnumbered 3:1 in the western front, or over 5:1 in the Eastern front. Dedicated military units could do even better in the midst of "allied air superiority".
This does not come for free, it comes with a mentality and will power to get the job done and where people accepted to lose their life to achieve the objective.
Translate this to modern day VW, where engineers get the order to create an engine with fuel consumption and power output within tight constraints or get fired. Using the automated equivalent of the old CO-screw on the carburetor seems a good solution. Luckily 3.000.000 people in Europe have a job thanks to VW, which has factories all over Europe. So perhaps the Americans can extort some money from VW, so they can buy more Chinese crap, but in Europe not much will be done which could damage VW in any serious manner.
Lack of action by the UK or EU administrations to protect VW & the associated already wobbly EU economy and jobs, just sounds like the "too big to fail argument" used by the banks.
What VW board have not taken into account is the real anger in deciding only to compensating just one set of customers, (those in the US) and effectively treating the remainder in the EU & UK with contempt by stating they will not offer any recompense for the additional costs their actions have incurred, due to loss of resale value, increased road tax, perceived increased fuel costs, additional congestion charges & now being subject to traffic exclusion zones.
Perhaps we should just drop our VAG affected vehicles on the VAG dealerships, demanding they either modify the vehicle so that it meets the spec it was sold against or refund all of our money on the basis it was miss sold or at least offer compensation & an apology!
@Green Nigel 42:
PSA Peugeot Citroën bled 5 billion euro two years ago. France tried to help them, but that was shot down by Germany. In the end, France was only allowed to provide a smallish short-term loan, and PSA had to sell off assets to continue. Expect exactly the same to happen to VW, where France, Italy and UK would definitely team up to shoot down any effort to help VW.
They're not too big to fail. There are at least a dozen car manufacturers lined up and ready to buy up factories with people, machinery and all the lovely patents. Okay, if the patents are for circumventing legal testing methods and if people are only able to design cars and car parts while in cheat mode, I admit that's not very useful, but at least the machinery and people at the assembly line are worth it?
You could drop off your VW at the dealer's. You wouldn't like your car after it was brought up to spec. And they'd only refund what it's actually worth, claiming you got good use out of it.
It does appear some action against Volkswagen is being considered by our UK Government with an investigation by the Serious Fraud Office over the diesel emissions scandal.
The Department for Transport have stated that prosecutors are considering whether to take action against Volkswagen amid accusations of "corporate criminality".
Officials also disclosed that the Competition and Markets Authority, the regulator, is considering mounting an investigation into the company too.
It does appear that VW have now offered to fix affected models and expects to start the recall in January 2016, so no need to dump the car on their forecourt just yet.
Exhaust emissions are considered to be an important contributing factor to many motorists in deciding the value of a car, they will pay a higher price for cars with specified low emissions. Hence by introducing a cheat device that falsify the EU emission tests, VW have indeed committed fraud by adding perceived value above its actual worth. This is miss selling and is really only dependent on the original owner seeking compensation for the loss of value incurred irrespective of how much the car has been used.
With reference to your comment of not getting a full refund I would draw your attention to the case of Doug Clements vs a Hyundia dealership.
Doug prior to buying a new Hyundai was assured by the salesman that he could achieve the combined cycle claimed figure of 57.6 mpg. After being unable to achieve this he told the Dealership he was rejecting it, who then refused a refund. Doug took them to court and 2 years later he won a full refund with the court ruling that it was not fit for purpose under the sale of goods act. Although this does not set a precedent, it does indicate the courts will take such cases seriously.
It is going to be easier with Volkswagens stated and published pre cheat figures vs their published post cheat figures to declare the vehicle not fit for purpose at point of sale according of goods act, and the real likelihood of a full refund with due consideration to reasonable use.
None - because they already cheated a test to prove the light bulb is still working! Even though there was no light, the approvals authority said that was OK, as long as the light bulb is given a software update by the end of 2016.
If the approvals authorities (KBA in particular) continue to refuse to revoke fraudulently obtained official type approvals, owners of VW group cars will be SOL with both the C02 and NOx issues. VW group will simply claim their cars *still* have all the necessary approvals for legal sale in the EU, so there is no breach of contract.
Thus we see a rich company that is "too big to fail" being helped by governments to continue to defraud their own citizens. Governments are careful to be seen to be going through the motions of enquiry, but very little actually changes. VW are not being held properly to account.
As much as I hate defending VW, almost every car sold in the EU has completely laughable fantasy mileage and emissions numbers just because the testing is so terrible.
Car makers are encouraged to cheat (and do) right up to some magical line where it becomes naughty. You're allowed to tape up all the cracks, rip out seats and other heavy things, use special tires, special gas in the tires, fold the side windows in (and then tape them to be even more aerodynamic)... and then the testers are paid by the car company, which encourages them to fudge it so they'll be hired again to do more testing.
This is one area where the US actually has much better standards and testing, and even then it took a third party to find the naughty type of cheating.
I don't understand the logic of your post. Mileage tests are conducted on a rolling road, so I do not understand what effect taping up doors and folding mirrors would have.
The rolling road test is clearly unrealistic because ambient is rarely 20-30C, real roads are not flat, have different surfaces, and because there is wind resistance. Just about every real world factor increases fuel consumption.
In effect everybody with a brain knows that the test MPG is the most the manufacturer can wring out by taking advantage of practical loopholes, but it should still be a fair comparison.
The US did improve its testing but, to be fair to the EU, US cars are on the whole so much bigger and so over-engined that fuel consumption is more of a problem.