I feel sorry for
Payroll Administrators.. I've heard a few people in the office flip their s##t (so to speak) over wages not landing this morning... and it's not the companys (or payroll dept's) fault.
BACS Bank Holiday BALLS UP borks 275,000 payments
Potentially millions of employees expecting to be paid ahead of the Bank Holiday weekend have been left without their salaries due to a cockup with the Bankers' Automated Clearing Services (BACS) payment system. The issue mainly appears to be affecting HSBC customers, which has blamed BACS. An HSBC spokeswoman said: "We are …
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Friday 28th August 2015 11:06 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I feel sorry for
How else are they meant to pay them, it can't be cash
Dare explaining why? What exactly prevents the company from sending a payroll clerk to the bank (+/- couple of hired goons from G4S) drawing the sum in cash and handing it out.
That was the normal procedure for centuries and somehow suddenly it is impossible. Oh, I get it, nobody wants to assume the responsibility for ordering that. Well... that as far as legal obligations does not fly, so you in fact can sue your company for failing to meet the payroll even if it is bank's fault.
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Friday 28th August 2015 11:39 GMT Destroy All Monsters
Re: I feel sorry for
My employer ran a dummy payroll for emergencies each month in parallel with the normal one
That's some crazy prepared right there. I am not sure many small businesses would want to do that.
What if the payroll hardware was ALSO down?
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:17 GMT Naughtyhorse
Re: can sue your company for failing to meet the payroll even if it is bank's fault.
But it's a pretty fucking stupid thing to do.
cos for A) there is less than zero chance of winning in 'n' years time when it gets to court.
and for B) you'll find yourself at the back of any good queue, and the head of any shitty queue until they find a way to sack your ass.
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:35 GMT Loyal Commenter
Re: I feel sorry for
So, lets say your company has 200 employers, paid an average of £1500 a month, what you're saying is that their local bank should keep £300k in cash just in case they can't pay their employees via BACS. Oh, and then do the same for the other 20 or 30 companies that use that branch? Sounds totally sensible to me...
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Monday 31st August 2015 09:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I feel sorry for
40 years ago I worked in a bank when cash payment was much more common. One day I got a call from a neighbouring branch.. "We're short of £10 notes for the [local car factory] payroll could you spare some of your stock?". I told them I'd got £10,000 - "OK never mind, we need £250,000"
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Friday 28th August 2015 20:51 GMT DaddyHoggy
Re: I feel sorry for
Just once - the deposit for my house - which, due to a cock up by the other party's solicitor, left me just a few hours to hand over a wodge of cash as the only way to actually complete on my property. I rang my local branch - said I was coming in - that I'd have photo ID to prove who I was - they didn't flinch at the amount.
An hour later - I identified myself at the counter and they gave my entire life's saving in a few bundles of pre-wrapped £20 notes...
(this was '97 - perhaps there was more cash in the system almost 20yrs ago)
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Saturday 29th August 2015 05:59 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: I feel sorry for
Ever tried walking into a bank and withdrawing £20,000 in cash?
Sure, I used to do it regularly 20 years ago in Eastern Europe before the electronic transfer system was opened to mere mortals. In fact, I have done it for much bigger sums too. The amount for which the bank used to ask for prior notice in those days was the equivalent of 50k.
However, checks never worked there - they went from cash straight to electronic payments. As a result they till this day use cash more than us and cash machines tend to be loaded with more dough too.
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Friday 28th August 2015 15:27 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I feel sorry for
Interesting idea but with a couple of potential issues:
1, Small companies may not have the cash flow available to make two payroll runs in the same month. (It appears that the money has been debited from the HSBC accounts, just not arrived at the destination accounts)
2, How much cash do you think an average bank branch keeps on the premises? Even for a medium sized business the monthly payroll can be >£250K.... (see also point 1!)
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Friday 28th August 2015 20:10 GMT Quip
"drawing the sum in cash and handing it out"
I do remember, about fifty years ago, when paid-in-cash in those little brown envelopes was the norm. And the regular news items about yet another wages snatch. I all got far too expensive. Today, being paid in cash is not all that helpful given you really need to take it to a bank and pay it in in order to meet all your DDs and SOs etc. I worked for a small company thirty years ago that still paid in cash or (as I really insisted) cheque: get paid today, wait until the middle of next week before the money could be credited to your account
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:59 GMT Don Dumb
Re: I feel sorry for
@Martin Summers -
What's that got to do with something beyond their control? How else are they meant to pay them, it can't be cash, cheque would clear a week after they got it and they could be paid by BACS quicker on a second attempt anyway.
Don't know who has the legal liability but speaking as someone who worked in a payroll office a decade ago. Payroll teams can pay people with same day payments using a system called 'CHAPS' (don't know what the acronym stands for). It's a relatively high level of effort required for each payment so it isn't something that can be done for too many people. Therefore a small payroll team could have sorted it for their employees this morning and the employee's bank would have the money by mid-afternoon.
However, the difficult thing would be that on Tuesday the BACS payment would hit the employee's account, so they have now been paid twice and then you then have to get the money back. This is always really hard for both the payroll droid and the employee. It's probably better for all to simply underwrite any fees or liabilities the employee has due to late salary payment rather than try and get a second payment out today.
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Friday 28th August 2015 16:56 GMT Graham 2
Re: I feel sorry for
I think it comes down to cost; BACS transactions are pretty cheap but CHAPS transactions are expensive (it's what lawyers charge you a not small fortune for when buying a house). I suspect the issue here is that HSBC have arsed up their identifier which is why a. It's not quick for HSBC to fix and b. Despite their Teflon shoulders it'll still be HSBC's f**kup rather than BACS'
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Friday 28th August 2015 10:32 GMT Small Furry Animal
Re: I feel sorry for
@John G I,
Yes they do, but the failure here is not theirs. They have made a best effort. So it's no use shouting at the payroll minions. A swift call to your bank (who will be aware of the HSBC/BACS failure) will solve the liquidity problem and HSBC/BACS will be liable to pay any charges or losses incurred by you.
How do you like it when your network goes down and everyone starts shouting at you even though the fault was caused by some dickhead with a JCB?
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Friday 28th August 2015 11:04 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I feel sorry for
It doesn't matter that the employer is not at fault. HSBC have the paid agreement with the employer not the employee. The employer still has an obligation to it's workforce to sort out this mess.
My employer ran a dummy payroll for emergencies each month in parallel with the normal one and our monthly payslips informed us what our emergency pay would be if this was used. Our pay failed to arrive one month due to a BACS failure but we received our emergency pay the following day paid through a different bank.
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:32 GMT Loyal Commenter
Re: I feel sorry for
It doesn't matter that the employer is not at fault.
So, what you are saying, is that you think it is perfectly reasonable to bring a civil case against someone for something that is demonstrably not their fault, and which you acknowledge is not their fault. Lawyers must love you, idiots like you are their bread and butter - they still get paid even when you lose the case!
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Friday 28th August 2015 13:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I feel sorry for
The banking system is quite good at dealing with this sort of thing. If you ring your bank and ask they can override the system and 'give' you money that hasn't arrived yet, reconciling the mess after the payment has come through next week. You should have no problems getting access to the funds now with a quick phone call.
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Saturday 29th August 2015 11:33 GMT BillBelfield
Re: I feel sorry for
HSBC. The banks do get blamed for perceived systemic failures in their payment systems, these services do cost a huge amount in both money and resources to maintain and secure from threat, and in this case I guess it's failed safe, not payments siphoned off.
What is annoying is consumers want all the benefits of digital banking at no cost and none of the risk.
I don't work for HSBC by the way!
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Friday 28th August 2015 10:44 GMT Ole Juul
The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
This just reminds me of parts of my life where I was living beyond my means and couldn't keep cash on hand without spending it. I'm now an old aged pensioner, but have learnt to save my money before I spend it and don't put all my savings in the bank specifically because they're troublesome and sometimes (like this) unreliable. I'm probably a bit of a trowback.
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:25 GMT Loyal Commenter
Re: The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
Yes, you're an OAP, which means you were working, and earning, at a time where reasonably paid employment was available for pretty much all, property was affordable, and for those who couldn't afford to buy a house, rent and bills didn't consume the majority of your take-home earnings. Well done, you're comfortable. Maybe considering doing something to help those who aren't so lucky as to be in your position, rather than gloating about it, because for the younger generation now, the situation certainly is NOT the same.
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
you're an OAP, which means you were working, and earning, at a time where reasonably paid employment was available for pretty much all,
Loyal Commenter, you don't half spout some s#it. As a proportion of economically active adults, UK unemployment hasn't been below 5% for three decades, and has averaged around 8% for most of that time.
I'm not sure what makes you think that the past three or four decades were some magical period of easy jobs and high living standards, because they certainly were not.
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Friday 28th August 2015 16:48 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
@Loyal Commenter
You seem to be taking a lot for granted there.
I don't know about Ole Juul's situation but I do know what mine was. And that the "reasonably well paid" & all that meant as far as I was concerned, that for years I arranged bank statements to be sent in the middle of the month so I could see how bad things were & what was left for the rest of the month. And very often the amount was negative by the end; maybe the only thing different back then was you seemed to be able to get away with that without penalty payments. I know it contributed a good deal to the stress I suffered at that time & from which I still suffer.
There seems to be an assumption by one generation that things were much easier for the previous one. I don't think it was.
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Friday 28th August 2015 21:22 GMT Ole Juul
Re: The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
@ Loyal Commenter said:
Yes, you're an OAP, which means you were working, and earning, at a time where reasonably paid employment was available for pretty much all, property was affordable, and for those who couldn't afford to buy a house, rent and bills didn't consume the majority of your take-home earnings.
That's just a bunch of bullshit that you made up! I've had disabilities for years and have had a very hard time of it. I'm not blaming anyone for that and the world owes me nothing. My income for years has been welfare level (current pension cheques total $811.16 per month) and food is very expensive for me. That said, I did come out well on the property and am grateful for that. I am also grateful that I have learned to manage my life and my income.
Let me tell you something else that I've learnt. Living with credit in order to facilitate the lifestyle to which you allude is a choice. It is not something which is thrust upon you. If you need to have a new car (mine cost $700 10 years ago), go on holidays (like rich people), buy things for your home instead of making them, and play silly financial games like deal with the bank on a regular basis, then you have only yourself to blame.
The generation you're talking about is the ones working in the 50's and 60's. That was indeed a sweet spot. However, even then not everybody lucked out and not everybody led the same life. My dad worked bloody hard for what he got.
Maybe considering doing something to help those who aren't so lucky as to be in your position, rather than gloating about it,
Gloating about it? Boy, you're some piece of work. I am in fact very grateful for what I got. Not only that, I spend what little energy I can muster outside of home on community work.
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Friday 4th September 2015 12:28 GMT rhydian
Re: The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
It's a bit late now, but this whole saga was in relation to wages being paid in to bank accounts and spent via *debit cards*. Not credit.
In fact, a credit card would probably have been a good emergency way to deal with the issue. Spend on the card while BACS is sorting itself, then pay the bill by the end of the month.
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Friday 28th August 2015 12:29 GMT LucreLout
Re: The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
The bank could close for a month and I'd be OK.
I'd be screwed in short order.... I have very little cash laying about and some sizeable liabilities to cover (mortgage and train to work for instance).
It's not that I'm fiscally profligate, but I'd need at least a few grand in cash to go for a month, and I'm not convinced having that much money in the house is a good idea.
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Friday 28th August 2015 14:27 GMT rhydian
@OleJuul
You seem to be projecting your own inability to handle cash in your youth on to people who, for sensible security and practicality reasons, would rather not have two grand stashed in a biscuit tin at the back of the kitchen cupboard.
It's a hell of a lot easier to overspend on a card than it is in cash. £20 notes don't come with an overdraft.
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Friday 28th August 2015 17:00 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: THAT MOMENT
"Surely they should have anticipated problems (such as BACS f*cking up) and paid us earlier??"
Earlier than what? Last day of the month is Monday & they're paying you on the previous Friday. That's earlier. Or did you mean they should have paid a day earlier than that? And what happens if there'd been a problem on Thursday? Pay a day earlier?
Recursion: see recursion.
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Friday 28th August 2015 17:12 GMT MassiveBob
Re: THAT MOMENT
@Doctor Syntax
Calm down man, it's a Friday.
I was trying to say something like what Kubla Cant said but obviously Kubla Cant can say it better than me.
If it's the other way around, and we were the ones doing the paying but it gets delayed due to a technical problem, what would the bank/service provider etc. tell us??
"I'm sorry, you should have anticipated problems occurring and paid us earlier"??
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
