back to article Windows 10 in head-on crash with Nvidia drivers as world watches launch

Microsoft's automatic updates feature in Windows 10 has collided with Nvidia's driver system, sending the new operating system off the rails as it launches. Early adopters are experiencing glitches (particularly in multi-monitor setups), and in some cases crashes, all triggered when Windows 10 automatically updates its …

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  1. Mage Silver badge
    Devil

    Update Clash

    It's only going to get worse.

    MS has lost the plot on Windows.

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Facepalm

      Re: Update Clash

      Apply more!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Update Clash

      People want Microsoft to release another shit, unready version of windows for the same reason the tories want labour to elect corbyn as a leader. We're dealing with juggernauts here, and the unfolding inevitable car crash could well mean a spectacular end to both organisations.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Update Clash... could well mean a spectacular end

        Alas it won't. :-(

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Update Clash

        "and the unfolding inevitable car crash could well mean a spectacular end to both organisations."

        At least it will be very entertaining to watch!

    3. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Mage Re: Update Clash

      "....MS has lost the plot on Windows." Seeing as MS had already explained the policy on driver updates and it was an nVidia app (their awful Experience non-tool) that screwed up, I would say it is more nVidia that has lost the plot.

      1. boltar Silver badge

        Re: Mage Update Clash

        " would say it is more nVidia that has lost the plot."

        Or perhaps Nvidia have a better idea of when to update their graphics drivers than Microsoft because there are dependncies to consider. You don't just download a new binary, slap it in and hope it works.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: Mage Update Clash

          boltar,

          What do you mean? MS aren't writing those drivers, they're only pushing out Nvidia's own updates. If Nvidia have given stuff to Microsoft that is buggy or updating the wrong kit, then again - that's Nvidias stupid fault.

          Also, the article states that Nvidia's own update software was downgrading the drivers in use to whatever they'd last downloaded, and creating the problem. They've had months to adjust that update software, knowing what Win 10 was going to do.

    4. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Update Clash

      You say that as if it's a widespread problem.

    5. Asok Asus

      Re: Update Clash

      "It's only going to get worse."

      A lot worse.

    6. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: Update Clash

      "Automatically rolling out updates may seem like the answer but the practice is not without its problems"

      Hence why they only get deployed to Windows Insiders to start with.

    7. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Update Clash

      I remember this with Vista. Which apart from being slow, and a bit ugly, was mostly OK. It was much more secure and less crash happy than XP. But as I recall a of its early problems, and crashes, were down the new driver model - and the vendors not keeping up.

      From memory MS had public alpha code around in at least Jan/Feb (I assume earlier for their hardware partners), and the public beta started in late March, with code complete in August for business launch September and the consumer launch being actually after Christmas. So MS gave plenty of notice. But I remember getting a new PC in May with a Creative sound card and the drivers weren't even ready until 3 weeks after I'd bought the PC - so my 5.1 card could only do stereo on the shipped drivers. So while MS changed a lot, they gave plenty of notice and plenty of warning, and you've got to say the hardware vendors deserve plenty of the blame.

      Cut to this. MS have made no major changes in the underlying OS, it's still basically Windows 7. There's been a public beta kicking around for 5-6 months, and there was a fully public alpha too. They said updates would be automatic ages ago. And yet in all that time Nvidia didn't think to make a simple update to their driver software to make it compatible with the new Windows version?

      And somehow this is Microsoft's fault?

      There's a perfectly fine argument to say that techies should be able to override OS settings if they want to. But given that most users are totally clueless, Microsoft are right to make updates compulsory, and surely we should be blaming incompetent vendors for screw-ups like this!

      1. boltar Silver badge

        Re: Update Clash

        "Microsoft are right to make updates compulsory,"

        Sure. If MS had a record of 100% perfect updates that never need to be backed out. They don't. At some point they're going to screw up literally millions of machines overnight.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
          Devil

          Re: Update Clash

          Everyone screws up updates. Let's hope MS have planned for dealing with this - although they already do tens of millions at once, so they must have. I still think it's better for ordinary users to risk that, than for them to risk virus infection. I've never had a Windows update screw up my PC in 17 years of running 98, Vista, 7 and 8 - nor any of the company PCs I support, or had to fix one for a friend. So automatic updating is a small risk I'm personally willing to take for the extra security.

          I do agree it should be possible to disable. Perhaps only on powershell, so ordinary users can't do it by accident.

          Perhaps they can scan user comment forums for people who are rude about them, trace back the IP address (or just cross reference with the typing logs they can download from everyone's PCs) - and make them the guinea pigs to get updates before everyone else does...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Update Clash

          "At some point they're going to screw up literally millions of machines overnight."

          Not just "going to", _they already have_. With _every version_ of windows, earlier.

          With this track record it is painfully obvious that they will screw up, probability is exactly 1.

          One fuck-up big enough and every windows 10 machine needs a re-install from scratch as you can't remove the "updates" forced on you.

          Once you've done a re-install, the machine happily does automatic update and is borked again.

          Nice idea, MS. Obviously they believe their own capability to make no errors, ever. No-one (outside fanboys) else believes.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Update Clash

        "And somehow this is Microsoft's fault?"

        They _know_ that vendors (and themselves) are lazy and _still_ they push _anything_ they make to your machine. On purpose. That is Microsoft's fault and no-one elses.

        " But given that most users are totally clueless, Microsoft are right to make updates compulsory, and surely we should be blaming incompetent vendors for screw-ups like this!"

        Vendors and Microsoft will always be incompetent and pushing crap by force is always a very, very stupid idea, no matter how high ideals there are behind it.

        Also, the law of numbers: Few un-updated machines versus millions and millions screwed users. That will happen again and again and again. People like you in Microsoft will never learn, it's not _their problem_: Blameshifting with full force. And users are screwed.

        There is no, and can't be, any justification for fucking every user just because some users won't update: The real reason is somewhere else.

        And I see the path Sony has already gone: Feature disabling by "updates" and forced adware/malware/spyware installations. As those make the money MS is losing by pushing the 10 for free.

        We already have a preview of that model with Freecell and Skype. Both force installed with 10, no doubt about that.

        If you aren't the entity buying, you are the entity being sold. Economical reality is as simple as that.

    8. TheVogon Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Update Clash

      "It's only going to get worse."

      4 laptops, 2 tablets and a PC upgraded to Windows 10 here today - zero issues so far.

  2. dogged

    Oh, are we on Register time again? This story would have been current on Sunday morning. Possibly.

    These days it's mostly fixed. And there's a tool you can use to stop any specific device's drivers from auto-installing.

    This information will be downvoted by people who really really want Windows 10 to fail.

    1. theModge

      Timeliness

      I would argue it was somewhat pedantic to complain about two days delay myself, regardless of your feelings as to the success of any given operating system. The article does repeat Microsoft's statement as to having fixed the issue. The issue being discussed is not the relative merits of Windows 10, but rather the risks of enforced updates, which could yet be removed from Windows 10.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge
      FAIL

      You mean they've made the Windows Update show/hide update control panel available as a separate download in response to an update borking the system? This is progress and will surely be useful when an update goes wrong and you can only boot in safe mode and then realise you've got no network. So you download it on your phone and realise you've got no bluetooth or phone drivers. So you use USBOTG to transfer it from the phone to a USB memory stick... you have actually got a USBOTG cable, haven't you? Etc etc and bloody etc...

      Your post will be downvoted by people who realise that until home versions of Windows work as reliably as an appliance it should not have the associated debugging tools removed and enterprise versions should never have them removed.

    3. Roo
      Windows

      "These days it's mostly fixed. And there's a tool you can use to stop any specific device's drivers from auto-installing"

      That's great, all MS need now is a vendor crapware removal tool that stops all the third party vendor update management crapware running...

    4. Andy Tunnah

      I was gonna downvote you for your frankly terrible and snotty attitude

    5. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Meanwhile, in the real world

      How many average uses (not the geeks who inhabit this place) would even know about what drivers (they drive cars don't they?) are, what might cause trouble when updating and the existence of this tool.

      Somehow, I'm getting the impression that MS is trying to make their system fail for the majority of its users.

      A company the size of MS and with such a market presence should know and do better.

      There is an old saying that Redmond seems to have forgotten.

      "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

      Like a good many readers/commentators here I'm staying well away from W10 for at least 6 months in the hope that by then MS will have seen sence and made their product a bit more user firendly for the majority of users. By this I mean the average joe/joanne who wants a PC/Laptop to do stuff on.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meanwhile, in the real world

        "Like a good many readers/commentators here I'm staying well away from W10 "

        TFTFY

      2. RegGuy1

        "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

        But isn't Windows a major revenue stream for MS?

        So if they stop punters (muppets?) giving them more money for what is after all just an OS, they will be broke, so they better fix us.*

        * By us I mean the muppets referred to earlier.

        Guidance: upvote if you think Windows is crap. Downvote if you have seen the light and know Linux is better.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

          Just so as you know, I'm down voting you because of what you wrote, not as an upvote for Linux.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      This is a problem that will keep happening again and again until MS back peddle on this idiotic idea of forced updates or at least allow competent users the ability to revert to alert but don't download and hide updates.

      1. The little voice inside my head

        It would be different if Nvidia was to submit their drivers to Microsoft for them to distribute via Windows Update.

      2. Chika
        FAIL

        This is a problem that will keep happening again and again until MS back peddle on this idiotic idea of forced updates or at least allow competent users the ability to revert to alert but don't download and hide updates.

        I can see why Microsoft have done this but I can't help feeling that the only reason for making updates (as of reading this, it appears that "security" updates are still compulsory) is because the problem needs to be addressed that users don't habitually update their existing systems unless pushed.

        The idea of making the updating of systems compulsory in this case, however, especially given the poor record of testing by Microsoft (let's not beat about the bush, if it is part of the Microsoft Update, it should be tested by Microsoft properly. Blaming third parties is just stupid) is just a lazy way to confront a problem that has been around since Windows Update was first incorporated into the system. Even WSUS is a bit of a cop-out as it puts the onus on the licensed company to do the final testing.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      This:

      " downvoted by people who really really want Windows 10 to fail."

      Well Microsoft do seem to be making it easy!!!!

    8. Paul Shirley

      Last time I looked Win10 was still offering me the 64bit Pinnacle 7010ix driver that won't work on 4Gb+ machines and the WiFi stick driver that causes instant kernel panics. Windows should NEVER automatically update drivers, the quality control on Windows Update is pathetic and drivers can render machines unusable.

      Nvidia are even more of a fustercluck. I abandoned their products long ago due to the regular removal of features or hardware acceleration in new driver updates. Last Nvidia GPU had 2+ year old drivers before I binned it, they were the most recent that worked properly with my hardware. But at least I could control which version was installed, which bugs I'd be living with.

      Giving back control needs to be built in to Win10, not a badly publicised patch many/most users will never hear about.

    9. DrBobMatthews

      Microsoft doesn't require any help for Windows to fail its a built in foregone conclusion. This is what you get when you get immature marketing idiots to mwrite code instead of seasones software engineers.

    10. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "And there's a tool you can use to stop any specific device's drivers from auto-installing."

      It won't help at all when MS decides to brick your machine. Either by incompentence or malicious purpose.

      We have examples of both from earlier versions.

  3. Field Commander A9

    Fail on MS's term?

    More like NV didn't get the driver suit compatible enough in time.

    1. Blane Bramble

      Re: Fail on MS's term?

      > More like NV didn't get the driver suit compatible enough in time.

      They had the driver gloves and the driver hat fine, but the driver socks were missing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fail on MS's term?

        "They had the driver gloves and the driver hat fine, but the driver socks were missing."

        Perhaps they didn't want to approach the W10 APIs without the Nomex suit on.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fail on MS's term?

      NV makes a mighty fine 'nix proprietary driver. It's a Windows problem probably due the fact MS has continually messed about and made last minute spec changes.

      1. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: NV makes a mighty fine 'nix proprietary driver.

        But does it install a driver update utility on unix that messes with the os' update mechanism? Otherwise it's not really relevant is it? The issue is the update mechanisms clashing, not the quality of either driver.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fail on MS's term?

        Are you referring to the NV 331 driver that has been generating error messages on every boot of all of my Nvidia equipped Ubuntu 14.04 LTS machines for the last 3-4 months? Just wondering...

  4. chivo243 Silver badge
    Devil

    Stop the train!

    Re-schedule the release for sanity's sake. Do the right thing. It may piss a few people off in the short term, but may be truly beneficial for MS in the long run.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Stop the train!

      I agree with you there buddy. I have been on the Insider builds for a long time now and its getting better and better with every build but its still not quite ready yet. Its ok for power users but once every day Joe gets upgraded I can see loads of problems on the horizon.

      They should wait a few more months for drivers and other compatibilities to be ironed out and for the metro apps to finished properly before they roll it out to everyone via update.

  5. Ged T
    Facepalm

    Driver only option?

    It is not at all necessary to use NVidia's GeForce Experience software - You only need the drivers, not the bloatware.

    In fact, remove any software which has the marketing-inspired descriptive 'Experience' in its name...

    ...but that would include Windows, too...

    1. Mark Allen

      Re: Driver only option?

      You beat me to it. That is what I came here to say. In computing the word "Experience" now means "bloated tracking crudware from the marketing team".

      I did have that GeForce Experience tool go totally batsh*t mental on a client's PC once. It seemed to be intent on finding an nVidia shield in the house. Which did not exist. Was totally messing with the PC until it was removed.

      I do get worried by this plan of Microsoft to auto-update drivers. Especially on OEM machines. Things like sound cards get pointless tweaks from some OEMs that mean the generic drivers then break the audio. So Microsoft does an auto-update and kills the audio. I've also seen similar with video.

      It is *really* helpful that we have now had this silly nVidia Driver dance during testing. Hopefully this will make them think a bit harder about letting some of us have some control.

      1. Chika
        Unhappy

        Re: Driver only option?

        You beat me to it. That is what I came here to say. In computing the word "Experience" now means "bloated tracking crudware from the marketing team".

        Dammit! You've blown their cover!

        Now we just have to wait and see what the next marketing term will be for stuff we wouldn't actually want if we knew what they were peddling.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Driver only option?

      In fairness the NVidia Experience stuff is nothing compared to AMD's versions of the software. I was impressed that it autoupdated my laptops graphics chip drivers and told me that the Intel drivers were out of date (hybrid graphics) .. until it started showing me adverts and saying I could use a weird sign in feature to connect to other gamers etc.

      Nvidias stuff isn't doing THAT at least, so AMD managed to impress me and annoy me within the same 5 minutes :P

  6. Gis Bun

    There is a tool released by Microsoft that allows you to pick and choose updates not to install. kb3073930

    1. Ged T

      About KB3073930...

      But that just takes you into a rather contrived updates management routine, after installing that KB, then install a tool to remove the offending update, then run an 'over-the-air' cab to TEMPORARILY do a 'hide' on the update, once it presents in the list of available updates....

      This is going to be quite an issue, not just for Nvidia but lots of other software and hardware drivers, in its myriad configurations, out there in Windows desktop land.

      Obviously your average user will find such a procedure a cinch to execute... For each 'offending' update... I'm sure they'll relish and praise Microsoft for allowing them to spend time acquiring systems administrator skills, rather than using their machines to run the applications that are the true raison d'etre for having their machine(s)....

    2. hplasm Silver badge
      Joke

      "There is a tool released by Microsoft..."

      Come on- you can't pin this one on Ballmer!

  7. Banksy
    FAIL

    Launch

    "officially launches on Friday."

    Doesn't it officially launch on Wednesday?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Launch

      "Doesn't it officially launch on Wednesday?"

      Is there a calendar bug?

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