back to article We'll ask GCHQ to DELETE records of 'MILLIONS' of people – Privacy International

Campaigning group Privacy International is preparing to help “potentially millions” of people request that their GCHQ records be deleted, following a landmark ruling by the Investigatory Powers Tribunal on Friday. The IPT ruled that the intelligence-sharing relationship between the US and UK had been unlawful prior to December …

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Big Brother

Does it really matter ?

Because the NSA will probably keep a copy of it all...

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Meh

Re: Does it really matter ?

And also how do we check they have complied? Can I just pop down and have a look?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Does it really matter ?

You can just trust them. They've gone fully legit now. Sure it took a maligned leaker to get it done, but don't worry about that. It's smooth sailing on the civil liberty seas from now on..

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Re: Does it really matter ?

Blame Julian - (don't forget to send him to sweden) - Assange for telling you, NSA do ...

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Re: Does it really matter ?

They do? Are you sure?

I know they don't think highly of wiki-twonks but I thought Snowden (the man not the mountain) and the grauniad may be to blame on this one.

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Re: Does it really matter ?

Assange made it popular, like inciting a riot ....

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Re: Does it really matter ?

I don't disagree, but you might also mention that the Five Eyes will have no more success merging the data than Google who claims they do not have to merge the data for it to be "useful".

There will no doubt be Lifetime Service Awards given by the Intelligence Industry to those individuals who have stumbled across something useful, although it is not wise to imagine that this is the same thing as winning two Nobel Prizes (Marie Curie, Linus Pauling, others?). That is a whole much higher level of genius. On the other hand anyone can claim to have won two Nobels; just send Google a news tip and wait for it to go viral. If the bill from Google is less than 20,000,000 Krona then according to the rules of Nobel Prizes (different outfit) in Economics then you have won the advertising game.

Good luck on that <owl:sameAs>Nobel Prize</owl:sameAs>

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Re: Does it really matter ?

"Blame Julian - (don't forget to send him to sweden) - Assange for telling you,"

It only came as a shock to naive millenials who thought they didn't. Those of us with a bit of life experience didn't need a suspected rapist to tell us.

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Black Helicopters

Catch-22

GCHQ probably consider requesting the deletion of your records enough to make you a 'person of interest' and therefore your records can be retained.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Catch-22

Paranoid but not far removed from the truth. After all the use of encryption gets your comms in the NSA's special data center indefinitely.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Catch-22

After all the use of encryption gets your comms in the NSA's special data center indefinitely.

.. where they will try to decrypt it, so I'm very much toying with the idea to generate some extra traffic that IS random noise. Traffic cloaking isn't a new idea, but it'll be fun to have them record a VPN tunnel through which flows nothing but garbage. A VPN sewer of sorts, basically.

Yes, I have things to hide. You really, really don't want any pictures of me in the nude, trust me on this :)

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Re: Catch-22

No, that's not encryption but my bloody awful spelling.

Mind you, with all the TextSpeak in use these days this could surely be classed as a form of mild encryption...

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Re: Catch-22

After all the use of encryption gets your comms in the NSA's special data center indefinitely

They can have it, they're not decrypting it while I'm alive.

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Re: Catch-22

Until they also pass a law putting you in prison for 5years if you don't decrypt it.

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Re: Catch-22

You mean like the existing and most heinous RIPA (kindly brought to you by the previous Labour government back in 2000) which provides for jail time if you decline to hand over when asked your encryption keys.

What's that? You've lost them? Tough, off to jail with you for not handing them over (not having them is not considered a valid reason not to hand them over under RIPA).

Oh, and whatever you do, don't tell ANYONE that you have had to hand over your keys, for doing so will result in another spell in jail.

Neat, huh?

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Re: Catch-22

>You mean like the existing and most heinous RIPA

Finally a draconian law that doesn't apply to Americans. Of course don't use your fingerprints as your login on any device here stateside as a court can force you to provide those or go to jail.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Catch-22

They can have it, they're not decrypting it while I'm alive.

So you're bearish on the quantum computer market then.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Catch-22

Nobody wants hairy, even if this is umm, news (-:

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Catch-22

A whole year before 9/11 as well. It's almost like George and Tony knew something big was on the way.

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Re: Catch-22

"You mean like the existing and most heinous RIPA (kindly brought to you by the previous Labour government back in 2000)"

Whats heinous about it? If you're in trouble and the police want to search your computer why *wouldn't* you hand over the keys if you have nothing to hide? Its the same as preventing the police searching your house. Yes its tough if you eventually turn out to be innocent but thats life , sometimes it isn't fair to the individual for the betterment of society as a whole.

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Re: Catch-22

There are laws in place which require decryption in specific cases, but those require court order to coerce cooperation. With these laws already in place they'd find it difficult to get ones which make it easier for them without it being purely "so we don't need a court order"

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Re: Catch-22

It's part of the whole right to silence/remain silent thing. In most circumstances you can't be required to testify or provide evidence against yourself, gathering that is supposed to be the job of the police, and which arguably providing encryption keys would fall under. Because people have that right they are entitled to exercise it in any situation where they are legally permitted to and quite often the police will ask for information (whether it's encryption keys for computers or ID at a stop and search) which you're not required to provide in the hopes that you won't realise that or will think it will go better for you if you hand it over.

Does that make RIPA heinous? No, not really, as far as I'm aware RIPA requires a court order to force you to provide the keys and at that point there are legal protections in place to prevent any kind of fishing exercise or the data being used for other purposes. I would just object to the idea you should just do what the police officer says because otherwise it suggests you've done something wrong, when in fact it might just be you object to the invasion of privacy

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Re: Catch-22

which provides for jail time if you decline to hand over when asked your encryption keys

Passwords for my crypto keys don't have "existence independent of the will of" (Saunders v UK) me, they can do what they like; I quite fancy a massive compo award via the ECJ. The can have the keys they can't have the passwords for them. For everything else there's PFS and they can bite me.

So you're bearish on the quantum computer market then.

Yup.

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Anonymous Coward

'This could affect potentially millions of people, including those outside the UK,'

I'm ready to join the flood (USian)

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Anonymous Coward

Ad infinitum

Will they need another court case to confirm the first has been complied with and the records deleted?

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Re: Ad infinitum & Catch 22

Quite apart from the conundrum of GCHQ admitting they have a record of you, after all, you actually wouldn't want them disclosing the fact they have a record of someone who actually is of interest, and by disclosing they have records of those who are not of interest, you could engineer a method to find out who is of interest.

Card organisations are very good at deducing the existence of a person through the transactions you make, I'd suspect security organisations have similar capabilities, so, you may, although not know it yourself, be in contact with a person of interest, and thus need to be there to say you are not a person of interest, otherwise you become a hole in the data and become a person of interest because no one knows who you are, to say you aren't a person of interest. It could also be said that to delete all your data, you would actually have to delete data about other people related to you, and so on.

They may have big problems deleting data, after all, what is the definition of delete, we have spent years making sure that data can't be accidentally deleted, and that deleting a record won't suddenly invalidate a whole load of other data, through logical deletes, that yeah you can delete the data, but then go and restore it from backup. You really can't delete the data from backup, because then it wouldn't be a backup, and to delete the data you would have to restore the backup, delete the data and back it up again however many times a person appears on a backup, which might be years.

Also they don't have to delete data that is a matter of public record, so exactly what data would you want deleted, you exist, therefore, you are.

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Anonymous Coward

And GCHQ will just laugh in their faces.

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Stating the Obvious. Get Used to ITs Powers in Command and Control. It isn't for Relinquishing.

Please be assured and/or suitably terrorised and terrified to know, GCHQ will do as GCHQ will do to know what needs to be known of anyone and/or everyone in order to remain relevant and of relatively anonymous assistance to leading authorities/state and/or non state actors which/who may or may not be in need of their services and supposed exceptional skill sets.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Stating the Obvious. Get Used to ITs Powers in Command and Control. It isn't for Relinquishing.

amanfrommars1,

Just as you say, BOTH GCHQ and the NSA will continue to do as they have been doing, whether or not anyone likes it or not. If others think that ANY efforts they have made to reveal their actions or methods will make any difference beyond not getting caught again, then they really don't have the ability to understand security agencies or what responsibilties they are charged with.

Knowledge is their power and that power must be used against ISIS or any other terrorists.

The willing leaders are not the problem, the unwilling and indecisive are. The phrase "Lead, follow or get out of my way" comes to mind. King Abdullah understands AND is decisive. Maybe Jordan should take over from Guantanamo Bay, looks like they would give the detainees a much warmer invitation than Oman.

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Re: Stating the Obvious. Get Used to ITs Powers in Command and Control. It isn't for Relinquishing.

Should there ever be a true and not perverse brand of leadership, AC, is there always the China Way which does more than just promise to present a more permanent solution which rids the Great Game of serial offenders and pretenders to greatness ......... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/11399732/China-executes-Ferrari-loving-billionaire-gangster.html

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Megaphone

You can see how much the British public trust our "authorities" nowadays, from the comments above! Having constantly shown how untrustworthy they are in the past, how can such a claim be made that they really will delete your records? This is an idiotic article - and Privacy International are really wasting people's time and their own money.

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"Privacy International are really wasting people's time and their own money."

Yet they have stuck their necks out on our behalf and are trying to do what they can in the face of almost aggressive levels of apathy.

Try some solidarity.

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Let's be realistic about such as these things .....

"Privacy International are really wasting people's time and their own money." .... Yet they have stuck their necks out on our behalf and are trying to do what they can in the face of almost aggressive levels of apathy...... Sir Runcible Spoon

And being as effective as if tilting at windmills springs immediately to mind, Sir. But I suppose it does make them feel not so powerless as they be.

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Re: Let's be realistic about such as these things .....

I'm not disputing the effectiveness of this ruling, but we can't dismiss the symoblic effort that it represents.

It's a start.

The only sure-fire way to fail in this regard is to believe we have already been beaten.

We might actually already be beaten, but I would prefer to go down swinging as they say :)

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Anonymous Coward

how much the British public trust our "authorities" nowadays

we are NOT "the British public". We are the 0.0000000001% (persons of interest, no doubt). The public don't care if they're fucked and whichever way.

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Re: how much the British public trust our "authorities" nowadays

@AC I can understand where you are coming from, but in general there has been increased awareness and resistance to state snooping since Snowden.

If the populace can be swayed by smoke and mirrors, they can also be swayed by truth and eloquence.

It's a lot harder to sell the truth obviously, but not actually impossible. Whilst I have breath in my body I will not give in to oppression, whatever 'brand' it hides behind.

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So if...

... the previous data sharing was, in fact, illegal (whether or not I agree with the view that it is now legal), then what will the legal consequences be for GCHQ as an entity, or for those individuals employed there who mandated, directed or otherwise authorised the illegal activity?

Oh. Right. How silly of me.

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Ok Back to basics

wound my heart with a monotonous languor

The rabbit drank an aperitif

Mademoiselle strokes her dog’s nose

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Ok Back to basics

Ou sont les Neigedens d'antan?

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Windows

Why bother?

I see my exact sentiments are echoed in post no.1. But what the hell...

Why bother, you'll just keep a fucking record of it anyway. And anyway, you'll just bring in another law that makes it ok. Or do it secretly. And get caught. Then make it legal. Then say you're stopping. Then don't.

Now who's going to help me out on a pseudo code 'for' loop for this?

I'll start:

Actually, on grounds of good coding practice, I'm wondering whether a 'do' or a 'while' loop might be better. Perhaps I'm overengineering it and a ternary operator (not to be confused with a 'tertiary' operator) might suffice.

It's also around this point that people pipe up: IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU! DEFEATIST! WORKING FOR THE CIA!

Um, no, I just realise when I'm on to a loser when I see one. Good luck banging your head against that particular wall. Having said that, I have immense respect for RMS and all he does. I'm glad someone is carrying the torch for freedom. I just don't see what the point is any more when they just do what the hell they like and fucking data rape us day and night. (I decided per our last conversation on a relevant matter, that the other bloke was right, and 'Data Rape' is indeed a catchier term than my idea of 'Information Rape'. It's shorter, for one).

Thinking about that loop business, maybe we need a new type of loop - a jimmy savile loop:

Now {Then...}

Now {Then...}

Sorry about the indentation. El Reg should have a 'code' tag.

I wont' try to do the silly yodeling bit in code, coz that is definitely beyond my capabilites. Kudos to those that even try. This was the day the world was officialy declared mad. I'm off to be listened to on my new 54" Samsung TV. Oi, Donna, where's my fucking chips you slag!

Knock knock!

(shuddering) Who..oo..oo...o's the..e..e..ere?

It's the god damn local neigbourhood watch mother******. We've been informed by command and control at no.36 that you have been abusing your wife! Open up NOW! Do NOT resist arrest. REPEAT: Do NOT RESIST arrest. Target is identified, We have a lock on. Going in. Repeat. Going in!

You laugh now...

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IT Angle

Today--GCHQ confirms that they deleted your data

Tomorrow, the NSA gets a call from Cheltenham asking for last week's backup tapes....

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Paris Hilton

Isn't there a story about a king commanding the tides to cease and the sea to remain where it was?

Truth is in the UK the overlords are the same today, tomorrow and yesterday - we are ruled by UKs (un)civil servantry

Politicians come and go but capita remains in charge?

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Black Helicopters

Ah de Capita

Let me count de ways...

Don't dey do, sorry alliterative license taken a bit too far there.

Don't they do the TV license? The ones that knock on the door, and you show them around, in the cupboards and under the stairs, even the place where you keep all your kinky clothes? And then, after saying 'Very good, that would be all for now sir', they send another bod back six months later for internal interrogation again?

They do some other stuff to, I seem to remember. Should be careful what I say really, because, not having a tv license I am ripe for the RIPA rape rigmarole (damn alliterative stutter I have, sorry).

Don't see what good them following them me around outside the house will do. Seems a bit expensive to me to employ undercover detectives to check on god knows what. Oh how I wish my Great Uncle who died in WWW1 could be reading this now. Actually, no, I'm glad he can't see he died in vain for a load of bureaucratic bully boys to take over (there I go again). Bugger.

I can however see that it makes sense that they monitor my internet usage. I mean, I might be watching live tv. I make a point of not doing this. Ever, just to be sure to be sure, so I do. Then again, they have other ways to data rape me, I'm not counting. I'm sure they got stuff I don't even know about. And probably wouldn't want to know about.

I find some kind of insanity in uttering these words, knowing I am in fact of sound mind, and that the society I live in is so sick and diseased that it won't be too much longer before any day now, a reckoning of sorts will come.

Ah well, I wait for the knock on the door. Funnily enough, for posting comments like this. One thing is for sure, this particular website is monitored pretty heavily. I would be most surprised were it not. They have enough on me to bang me up for sure. But I'd probably be dangerous in prison. I think a suicide is more in order for me, seeing as I have actually been very very depressed lately.

I'm making a print out of this correspondence to give to my psychiatrist next time I see him. Do you think he will think I am mad?

To think, in this day and age, after all humanity has suffered and triumphed over, to get to this point, we are having a 'conversation' like this. And the best part is, no one can make any tin foil hat jokes (except me when being ironic), because all our worst nightmares have officially come true.

I actually have a very big conspiracy theory re: The Guardian and Snowdon, but I'll keep my powder dry for now. Just off to make a big vat of boiling fat for my chips. I hope I don't fall asleep and succumb to the hilarity that would surely ensue, should I forget I have my tasty supper on the go. I was going to get Donna to do it, but I'm being nice to her for now. Maybe I'll just send her out for a kebab. Might be safer.

Toodle pip, and tell Tim the clock is running fast.

Yours, Alec. With the large glasses.

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Silver badge

Re: Ah de Capita

One thing is for sure, this particular website is monitored pretty heavily. I would be most surprised were it not. They have enough on me to bang me up for sure. But I'd probably be dangerous in prison. I think a suicide is more in order for me, seeing as I have actually been very very depressed lately.

I'm making a print out of this correspondence to give to my psychiatrist next time I see him. Do you think he will think I am mad?……. A Ghost

Quite the contrary, A Ghost and Alec. With the large glasses. Any even half competent and not indecent indolent shrink would see a sound mind in full enough perfect working order in the insanity of disorder with CHAOS* raining and reigning and chomping at the bit and pulling at the reins in order to tame and shame wayward ignorant rule.

And bash over the head that severe and serious depression with the manic notion and sure probability that this particular website and other similarly peculiar websites are now novelly and nobly mentored too.

A little something special you can be assured will have a 77th Brigade AI stamp all over it with a right leadership in attendance and with Proper Preparation and Positive Planning to Prevent Piss Poor Performance Permitting Prime Prize Penetration and Perfect Private Pursuit of Public Projects and Pirate ProgramMING Parameters. One wonders if that is something which a failed CESG would be responsible for not providing, given that they are supposed to be, and do purport to be The National Technical Authority for Information Assurance

*And you should know too now and nowadays of CHAOS and Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems for the AIManipulation of Madness and Man Management of Mayhem.

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Re: Ah de Capita ..... and El Reg Servering the ICEnvironment and IntelAIgent Community

That's a nice post, A Ghost. Sharing the reality but not as the madding crowd and dumb and dull herd would know it.

And here be support for your grand view too ........ "Controlling Today's Perception Of Tomorrow's Economic Strength" Is THE Fed Mandate

Although the Truths need to be said ..... The Fed does neither possess, nor does its IT exercise, that EMPowering Command and Control. But the City in London might think that it does to leads all in the fanciful Ponzis that are delusions of grandeur and ab fab fabless fabrication ...... Really Crazy Fantasy. :-)

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Anonymous Coward

Sue us. And sue u.s.

Yours,

GCHQ

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Anonymous Coward

Perhaps its time for a HMX plot.

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Silver badge

The more time they spend dealing with paperwork, the less time they have to spend spying on us.

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WTF?

I can't believe it.

I just upvoted two posts from amanfromMars 1

Maybe a psychiatric referral is in order after all!

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