back to article Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful'

Lennart Poettering, creator of the systemd system management software for Linux, says the open-source world is "quite a sick place to be in." He also said the Linux development community is "awful" – and he pins the blame for that on Linux supremo Linus Torvalds. "A fish rots from the head down," Poettering said in a post to …

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  1. ecofeco Silver badge

    Entrenched and hostile?

    Sounds like EVERY place I've ever worked.

    "Ever thought about indexing that knowledge base?" (very bad question)

    "Why are there still printers that can't do remote reporting still in use?" (yet another very bad question)

    "Why isn't this pixie image working?"

    "Why are we not updating the BIOS's?"

    "Why wasn't enough space allocated on the servers in the first place?"

    "How come this custom in-house utility was not updated to work with platformX ver. 0.newest?"

    Just part of a long list of things you do not ask of the entrenched lest you receive the hostile.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Entrenched and hostile?

      Yep. And at work you have performance reviews, a "quiet word", warnings, rights, ass kissing, etc. You have none of that crap with OSS.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Entrenched and hostile?

      He must be wrong! I mean there are soooo few security holes in Linux, and the security important bits like SSL are absolutely rock solid and the stuff that everyone relies on like the shell is tighter than a flys arse due to 20+ year of code reviews - which is so so much more secure because the source code is public. Oh, wait....

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If you think the Linux community is full of grumpy divas...

      ... you should try OpenBSD.

    4. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Entrenched and hostile?

      More downvotes than upvotes?

      Ah the irony.

      *snerk*

    5. FreemonSandlewould

      Re: Entrenched and hostile?

      Screw you dude!

      It's not a crime to be white, Finnish or grumpy. Although you effeminate liberal types try very very hard to be chix with stix.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    He's disgruntled because he's repeatedly wrote shoddy code and he was called out on it.

    Gates + Ballmer where apparently much worse, and feared upon - but their outbursts were in the privacy of their own company, and heavily guarded by PR droids.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Wrong. That's exactly the attitude he is talking about. A few years ago, I gave a few versionsn of Linux a shot, got tire of Windows, didn't have the money for macs. So I downloaded and installed, played around, wasn't bad, not Windows good, but for free, hey, couldn't complain. But some advance things and even a few basic task required me to drop down to a command line. Not a problem, but I didn't know all the commands, structure, files,locations settings, ....you get the idea. So I go online, decide to try the official forums located from the makers of these various Linux versions and ask a few questions. I found out very quickly those users liked to Insult new users who couldn't do simple task. Long story short, ice will ornomate Satan's firy relm before I go that route again. Lack of knowledge isn't the holdback with Linux, in my case, it was the behavior of the support.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Yes, I think in your case you got some tossers on a "support" forum, giving you a good old bollocking because you didn't know what keywords to google. They need a cattle prod up their arses.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            I was sympathising - I've been in the same situation

        2. TechicallyConfused

          You just described 80% of the people I have encountered on Linux forums

          I disagree. I have found the vast majority of people that bother to respond on linux support forums are too busy being gleeful about delivering a slapdown the new guy that only knows Windows and not busy enough trying to be helpful. I suspect this is because the majority of these Linux forum trolls are sweaty, pungent and spotty (irrespective of age) and find it easier to interact with the world through a keyboard and as such have never learned the social skills necessary to interact in a professional manner. My apologies to those few of you out there who are genuinely helpful, I just wish there were more of you.

          But that is just my experience. I suspect I'll acrue a few down votes from those same anti-socialites and the plain mask wannabe's but hey I don't care. They'll never find me out in the daylight.

        3. Fatman
          Joke

          Linux community "support".

          They need a cattle prod up their arses.

          Does anyone know where the BOFH is today?

          A side note, there is quite a bit of hostility toward those who pose questions without taking the time to do the research Google the fucking problem; and expect "hand holding".

          I have had my share of issues with GRUB 2 and booting from partitions, with the partition's GRUB install fucked by an update to GRUB. It took some serious Googling, but I finally came to understand what is getting fucked up, and how to prevent future clusterfucks. It turns out, I am using GRUB in a manner that the developers do not recommend, (installing GRUB to a partition), but they do not prevent you from installing GRUB in such a manner..

      2. Captain DaFt

        "I found out very quickly those users liked to Insult new users who couldn't do simple task."

        Wow, that's actually a blast from the past! In the 1990s it seemed it was prerequisite to rag the the newcomers and defend Linux against any and all attacks, real and imaginary.

        Back then:

        Skorp:"Hi, I'm new to Linux and have hit a snag. How do you frebnle?"

        Dekl: "LOL RTFM, NOOB!

        Kewy: "Yeah, LOL, man pages are there for a reason... NOOBZ, AMIRITE?

        The proper way was to attack to get an answer:

        Skorp: "Linux is sooo lame, it can't even handle something simple like frebnle!

        Derkl:"That's just typical M$ FUD!! All you have to do is ]p[io/frpn in bash, job done!

        Kewy:"LOL, he said frebnle, not drebnle, cockface! Look, I've just wrote a script to Frebnle in Linux, {download here} Just unrar that in usr/share, bash frebnle and you're good to go! See? Easy! Linux does everything!"

        Today, most distros have forums for the newbies, and even the dumbest question will usually result in no more than a link to the FAQ or post dealing with the answer.

        1. Just Enough

          You missed the usual response offered when a user wants to do something that the system either can't do, does badly, or does in the most complex way possible.

          Noob: "I can't get the OS to do x, even though it claims it does."

          Forum: "LOL you idiot, why do you want to do x? Your reasons for doing x must be invalid. The problem is you, not the OS."

          Noob: "I have very good reasons for doing x, I only want it to do it properly."

          Forum: "WRONG! You should do y, and we're not telling you how to do that either. We know better than you what your needs are. The problem is you."

          Noob: "So why does it claim to do x, when it can't?"

          Forum: "Are you still here?"

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          frebnle /dev/null | drebnle | while true do; read x; echo ${x}$$; done - solved!

          This is how you frebnle the drebnle, I searched google and all I got was a link to this forum - Jeeze I don't think any of you loosers know your frebnels from your drebnles - bunch of f****g wannabe's.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Isn't this dialog the very same problem, how many women would be happy to have to engage like this for example

          1. alcalde

            Linus got called out on just this by a rare female kernel contributor. Linus kept essentially saying he didn't want to talk about it and treated it like a joke. Meanwhile the nerdrage overflowed online and lots of filthy misogynistic comments followed on the Internet. Linus also began ranting about needing to wear a suit and tie and be an a$$-kisser and all sorts of stuff like being asked to think about what he says/writes before doing it would be the end of the world.

            Greg K-H answered a question about the best thing about open source with being able to berate kernel developers. Poettering is 100% correct; Linus has set an example. He behaves like the Ann Coulter of Linux and in the same way his minions cheer every time he says something horrible to someone. I used to admire the guy but now I say that I greatly admire some of the things he's written about software design but the things he's written about people are terrible and simply unacceptable in 2014 in regards to bullying. I've seen him tell people to go kill themselves after a rash of teen/young adult suicides due to bullying made national news. Sadly I've discovered he's not a man I'd like to sit down and have dinner with for fear of what would come out of his mouth if I or anyone else had a different opinion. Now take Steve Wozniak - another tech genius, but also a kind, warm-hearted human being who I would love to talk with. He builds people up rather than tearing them down.

      3. Benjol

        Can't believe it. Taylor 1 gets more downvotes than upvotes just for recounting his experience, with no insults involved.

        Kind of confirms what he says.

        1. ElReg!comments!Pierre

          Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

          Now write me a detailed tutorial on how to do $STUFF because I can't be arsed to read the man page or search the forum/mailing list history.

          Oh, and did I mention that your stuff is not quite as good as anything else on the market and the only reason I try it is because I can have it for free?

          I can sort of believe it...

          1. The First Dave

            Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

            I've never understood - if you are a newbie (however intelligent) how the fuck do you read the man page for a command you have never heard of?

            For example, I want to find something, so I look up GREP ... ?

            1. phil dude
              Linux

              Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

              man man

              man -k 'keyword'

              On modern systems (well opensuse) if you type an unknown command it will make suggestions and give you a means to dig further, tell you which repository it might be in. That command is called "cnf" (command not found).

              For everything else there is the interwebs search engines. In linux you can run a command line browser (links or lynx) which means if the gui fails (say your monitor blows up/fails) and you have a serial line, you can still access the computer. It happens often enough this is worth knowing....!

              Your welcome.

              P.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

                man -k/apropos: I've got more UNIX experience than, probably, your age and on more versions than I expect you have heard of.

                I use man -k. But the fact is that for a newcomer it is not awfully useful. e.g. Try "man -k search", assuming that the admin has run catman(1) to create /usr/share/man/windex (of course, everyone understands the error message if it has not been done): on the system in front of me I get 107 lines of output to stdout plus an error to stderr. The output gives stuff about ldap, X, compressed files .... find(1) is not in the list. i.e. the find(1) man page does not give "search" in the summary. So, a user wanting to search for a file (rather than thinking he wants to find a file) is out of luck, assuming he found the right entry in the list.

                No, your smart-arse answer is just what the complaint concerns and reeks of fear and inexperience when asked a simple question by a naive user, who may not understand or even know about man pages or the man sections and what they mean and is unlikely to consider "man man" to find out.

                If volunteers want their efforts to be rewarded by wide acceptance and use, they had better understand about high quality in all of their work, not just some cunning algorithm that they probably found elsewhere.

                Torvalds was once an ignorant student. He built on the efforts of helpful and understanding people, whether the original UNIX developers and designers, Minix or his teachers and fellow students. If he is really so wonderful, so all knowing and such a wonderful person, he should develop some tolerance, understanding and an appreciation that the, apparently, silliest questions can be some of the hardest and most useful. He may spend every waking moment in his area of expertise. For most people, it is just a tool to get a job done and their expertise lies elsewhere, just as if you hammer a nail into a wall to hang a picture, no one expects you to be an expert in the making or even best usage of hammers or nails. But you may have the perfect eye for what picture to choose and where to hang it.

                I should have thought that the recent, highly publicised matters concerning SSL software, bash and others would have instilled a bit of sobriety and humility in the contributors here.

                By the way, I do scan the internet for ideas and answers fairly often. It is horrifying how many people parade themselves as experts and publish a scrap of shell script or python that is screamingly awful, dangerous and ignorant (though in the right circumstances it gets the job done) and are rewarded with responses that "you have saved may life/sanity/day...". I fear that Linux hides a lot of code of that genre that is never caught until it breaks.

                1. meqaniqal

                  Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

                  This is spot on (and apropos). Especially the lunacy of suggesting newbies using `man -k` to find answers. Shows a complete lack of empathy, in the sense of being unable to comprehend different and valid perspectives (in other words, an inability to put oneself in the other's shoes). Sadly, these are the same people suggesting that people who are asking real questions are the broken ones -- the askers don't have thick skins, and they aren't worth answering if they can't weather some abuse.

                  The people who already know `man -k` are not usually the ones asking the questions. (If they do know, and they should know better, well, I understand ....)

                  On the other hand, I've spent a lot of times answering questions (and sometimes asking) on forums and the like. It isn't a paid position, and sometimes those who are replying are having a bad day, month, or whatever. I know I've been rubbed the wrong way by something in a question that's probably really innocuous....

                  But for those who are on forums asking questions honestly and who are basically decent ( -- not the troll-y, disingenuous, the boorish with a sense of entitlement....), we should try to be as efficiently helpful as circumstance and our natures allow. I kind of see where Torvald's comments as to his own disposition apply, but it is sad that the followers emulate the same kind of behavior when they don't have to. It's probably that they don't want to take time to work on being more flexible and empathetic human beings. Sometimes, it isn't in our nature ; but when are we just being lazy?

              2. The First Dave

                Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

                Not to mention that you need to know MORE or LESS or something more or less the same, before you can even read a MAN page...

            2. Nigel 11

              Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

              If you don't hve a clue, use Google to get one! I want to find something in a text file on Linux, so Google ... let's see ... "Linux search text file". Never let it be said that I make comments like this without trying it out. My very top hit had grep halfway down the first screen as the first suggestion. ( http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000757.htm )

              There are also hundreds of guides for students of various sorts of ability. Then there are complete books, although you usually have to hand over a few quid to the author.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Your stuff is crap but it's free so I'll take it.

                Interesting that the advertising firm, Google, is your first option: UNIX users would use man(1), particularly if on a train for a long journey, without internet connection. Well, some GNU die-hards may use info. I have been reduced to strings(1) on binaries to get usage where no man pages were installed (pray they were not stripped to save space).

                However, it seems to be true nowadays: you get what you pay for.

                If, as a volunteer, you resent answering questions, do not volunteer. Do not read the DLs. Do not learn what new users need to know, how non-techies work and so how to improve your software. Better still, spare us all and do not design or write software for which, clearly, you have done no user interface research.

        2. Hans 1

          Actually, I downvoted him ... for several reasons. I help out n00b's on Linux in several forums. linuxforen.de, unixboard.de, and linuxquestions.org for example (too many to mention here). I have been for years and I must say we are very tolerant and helping. The ubuntu forums look ok to me as well. I do not know which forums he is talking about but I have yet to see any evidence of this kind of behavior for complete n00bs ... of course, if you come along as an aggressive prick you might get some flack - that is no different on windows forums, though.

          I think it is unfair towards us who spend time helping out users.

          Look at this poor former Microsoft dev: http://askleo.com/whats_the_best_registry_cleaner/#comment-1176

          It is not a forum but a comment section on a blog ... still.

          1. ElReg!comments!Pierre

            > that is no different on windows forums, though.

            It is a bit different on Windows forums for 2 reasons that Windows transfuges often don't get at first when posting on *NIX forums:

            -on widows forums you usually talk to fellow users; it is customary to begin with "This app is crap and the doc is useless, please help a bro out". On Linux forums you're usually talking to the people who coded the damn thing and / or wrote the doc. You can't be a total dickhead to their face and demand that they fix your problems politely.

            -in the Windows ecosystem when you talk to the official support and/or the devs they already got your money. You're a customer and thus benefit from a higher tolerance if you're being a bit of a dick. On linux forums (excluding the paid-for support like RHEL) you usually did not pay the devs you're insulting, so they don't have to be nice if you're being a jackass.

          2. DropBear

            There is nobody sitting on those forums getting paid to patiently copy-paste the same thing for the 1001th time for the sake of a noob who can't be arsed to make a good faith effort to find one of the previous 1000 answers to the (usually) trivial problem he doesn't know how to solve. Now, if he already tried that and it still doesn't work or the problem is a particularly specific one not covered in the usual places that's a different situation and people normally don't get abused for asking for help with that sort of thing. But I'm really not surprised nobody likes people who go "hey, listen, no idea how to do XYZ, could you write me a step-by-step tutorial?"; the expression "let me Google that for you" exists for a good reason. And this isn't even specific to Open Source - try telling me with a straight face you have never met any of those people who figured out long ago that getting anything done is much easier by straight-up asking others to do it for them than expending any effort of their own...

            1. Vic

              try telling me with a straight face you have never met any of those people who figured out long ago that getting anything done is much easier by straight-up asking others to do it for them than expending any effort of their own...

              The Help Vampires

              Vic.

          3. alcalde

            Hans, some Linux forums are indeed friendly and helpful, such as the ones you cited. i've also known Sabayon and OpenSUSE forums to be friendly and helpful. But the phenomenon does exist. Remember Sidux Linux? It was infamous for treating users terribly. There was a giant FAQ about exactly how you should install and uninstall programs, what programs you should run, what file systems you should use, how you maintain your systems, etc. Some of it was common sense; other parts were like weird pseudoscience. Regardless, it was stated that if you didn't do all of these things then any problems weren't bugs; they were your own fault and you wouldn't be helped. They had a completely rigid ideology about many things - for instance a 64bit distro had to be completely 64bit with no 32bit libraries for compatibility, even if it meant you couldn't run some things at the time like Opera, Flash, etc. Object and you'd get banned. Do anything differently and you'd get banned.

            It was a joke among other distros. Eventually they had a fight with their own governing board and forked the distro. Now it's called aptosid and spends its time actively discouraging anyone from remastering it and banning users from IRC.

            Arch is another place I've heard hasn't been historically friendly to newbies (few realize its "keep it simple" means for the developers, not the users). Of course, nothing tops sidux/aptosid.

            So yes, there are friendly and hostile places for newbies.

        3. Alan_Peery

          Or kinda doesn't. Perhaps we've had a different experience, but can't be bothered to write a detailed list of the 90 times people have helped versus the 5 times that people were less helpful / responded with RTFM / were abusive.

        4. Nuke
          Meh

          @ Benjol

          Wrote "Taylor 1 gets more downvotes than upvotes just for recounting his experience, with no insults involved. Kind of confirms what he says."

          This is not an Open Source forum, so why does that confirm anything? In fact, I have found that factually recounting any non-upbeat experience on any forum (political, lifestyle, closed source, whatever) can bring downvotes even when you think you are being neutral; it is not exclusively an Open Source thing.

          Perhaps in this case the downvotes are because he refers to "a few years ago" and by implication goes on to assume that remains the case today (would not go back etc). In recent years I have used a number of Open Source forums and have not found any of that behavour.

        5. SineWave242

          Well, if you ask me I think Taylor 1 has an attitude problem, too. Judging from his posts.

      4. fandom

        "I found out very quickly those users liked to Insult new users who couldn't do simple task"

        A link to a thread in which you were treated like that would be nice

      5. Rick Giles
        Linux

        Can you imagine

        "Lack of knowledge isn't the holdback with Linux, in my case, it was the behavior of the support."

        Can you imagine the brow beating you would get from a M$ support person if you weren't paying for it?

        I love how someone can take the experience of one or two bad apples and blame the whole bushel. Just tell them that their mom will kick them out of the basement if they don't behave.

      6. bjb1959

        you're right, and you're wrong

        Been using Linux as my primary system since 2008 and there are tons of helpful people on forums willing to help newbies out, there are also tons of ***holes that think they are the absolute geniuses and everyone else are idiots and feel they have the right to tell everyone they are idiots. It makes it difficult for newbies if they wind up on a forum with those ***holes. In all fairness, I have also experienced plenty of "I'm smart and you're an idiot" ***holes on Windows forums as well so it isn't something unique to Linux. Keep in mind that forums are not paid service, if you call Microsoft you pay per hour for support, so with free comes compromise. You, unfortunately, need to either just Google for a solution to an issue without dealing with another human, ignore the jerks until someone helpful answers you or try to find a different forum with better human beings on it.

    2. marcus777
      Boffin

      Yes

      There are those who think the squabbling here is unique to gnu/linux, or that somehow Linus is to blame ... but the truth is that any large development project (kernel included) has these kinds of disagreements, and prima donnas, and no-nonsense managers who know how to take names and kick a$$es. So, if Leonnart could get his team to be less cavalier about bug reports, and more responsive to the development community he might find that its easier to work with them. Linus is a flip-you-off kinda guy NOW and then sees if your attitude changes. NVidia deserved to be flipped off, and so does Leonnart. I hope he learns a small humility. But, he needs to stop bashing Torvalds and the kernel team.

      1. alcalde

        Re: Yes

        Marcus - not every large development process engenders bullying. Not even the majority. Software development doesn't cause bullying. Bullies cause bullying.

        Could we please stop with glorifying verbal violence and mental torture? Linus doesn't "take names and kick a$$es" - he unneccessarily verbally abuses anyone who has an opinion different than his. He's lucky he has the kernel and I guess somebody pays him for it - he'd be fired and unemployable otherwise unless he got some professional help.

        Nobody "deserves" to be treated the way Linus treats people. If there's a bug in your code, you don't deserve to be told to kill yourself. Have you been watching the news lately? People take that advice.

        You're blaming the victim for the crime, just like saying rape is the woman's fault. Poettering doesn't need to "be taught humility". Linus needs some sort of therapy to deal with his lack of human empathy and anger management issues. It's Linus who does the bashing, not Poettering. Making Linus and his henchmen out to be the poor victims of an evil Poettering is a real sick twist. I'd be ashamed to have my handle attached to a statement like that, let alone my real name.

        It seems Linus really has engendered a spirit of anti-social bullying in the Linux community. It's a shame, and at least there are many open source communities where it would be unacceptable. Can anyone imagine Guido van Rossum telling people to go kill themselves?

    3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Indeed

      I have contributed to several open source projects and the rule of thumb is:

      1. They are usually fairly tolerant in the beginning

      2. Once you get to know the lay of the land you are expected to write high quality code and that quality is expected to be consistent too. If you do not deliver the tolerance will quickly disappear.

      I believe that quality of the code is not something which systemd is renowned for so it is not surprising that he is getting flack. He is long past "phase 1" so there is an expectation from him to deliver. Like any other workplace for that matter.

      1. alcalde

        Re: Indeed

        1. This has nothing to do with code quality!!! Poettering is being bullied BECAUSE HE EXISTS. Because PulseAudio is different. Because Systemd is different. Because he's actually putting his money where his mouth is and showing what he can do and really fixing problems. He could announce the sun sets in the West and 50 tweets would go out calling a bunch of four-letter words. It's disgusting.

        2. Poettering has "delivered" more than most any other developer in open source.

        3. If Poettering handed in a bunch of spaghetti code written in BASIC, it would not justify DEATH THREATS. Why is that so hard for the Linux community to understand - or do they not want to understand because then they'd have to realize it's time to demand Torvalds get therapy for his anger issues or be shoved aside for someone who can behave like a professional? '

        3B. That's the real irony with your post - it's Linus who's behaving like a 16-year-old intern and needs to learn how to behave in the workplace. In fact the last time he was asked to treat people nicely he went off on a tirade about maybe he should wear a suit and tie and kiss a$$es and tell people what they want to hear and blah, blah, blah. He's got some serious unresolved issues with anger and with authority.

    4. Błotosmętek

      Whom do you mean, Torvalds or Poettering? If the later, I wholeheartedly agree; systemd is crap.

      1. Cipher

        Kevin Toppins' take on systemd:

        Toppins on systemd

        systemd does appear to be a cancer on *nix, I will not install a distro that uses it...

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Alistair
          Windows

          systemd does appear to be a cancer on *nix, I will not install a distro that uses it...

          Best get your Slackware on then. Or Gentoo.

          Sadly RHEL7 is infected.

          I don't need Toppins opinion, mine's even lower and more vilifying.

          Poettering's crew are ignoring pleas from app teams, system admins, and environment managers, insisting on tying non server toolkits into a core server process and then dropping the ball on bug filings "because it doesn't meet our agenda" (I've seen that on a closed bug once, I'll see if I can find the BZ entry)

          Personally as an SA, having had the exposure through F18/19/20 I can see nightmares ahead of us on a scale that staggers the imagination. .......... (ahhhhhhhhhh I could go on for quite some time, but that would make me an intolerant, ignorant empowered white male egotist in some dev's mind. Instead of a grumpy old bastard.)

      2. Chika
        Flame

        Oh how I've waited for somebody to back up my views on systemd. If it were any good, I wouldn't have half the headaches I've had with upgrades and installations over the last couple of years or so and any bad words from LT about this were, IMHO, well deserved. systemd is a great example of somebody rewriting from scratch something that already existed (and did the job reasonably well but just needed a bit of fettling) and now, because everyone + dog wants to be "up to date" (i.e. using the latest fad), it's headache time for everyone that has to use the damn thing.

        I'd say more, but it wouldn't be safe...

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Tired old racial angle

      "He's disgruntled because he's repeatedly wrote shoddy code and he was called out on it."

      Yup. And the only way he can see to get a good shot in is to wheel in the old racial angle as what, a trump card? It just makes him look like an idiot. So what if most core devs are white and middle class, its not like there's some racist exclusion policy. What does he want - affirmative fucking action?? Does he think non white non middle class people might like his POS systemd more? What a dick.

      1. alcalde

        Re: Tired old racial angle

        Wow boltar, you really exhibit the angry intolerant bullying that's the real subject here.

        The point, when one takes time to think about it, is that kernel development is a "good old boys club" of homogenous people who think alike and act alike - just as you're sounding like Torvalds now. The good old boys club attacks anyone who thinks or acts differently and tries to tell itself that they did it because they "deserved it" just like you do in your post. As a result, they only attract people who behave just like they do and they force anyone out who wants in anyway by bullying them.

        The "POS systemd" is now going to be in use by essentially every major Linux distro. That means it's not a POS; it means there's something tragically wrong with those who have to keep calling it thus - perhaps a clinical aversion to change?

        As Poettering goes from success to success and proves his ideas right time after time the nerdrage grows and grows. If he's not careful they may go Reiser on him.

    6. alcalde

      "Called out" - first of all, Poettering has contributed some amazing code that's in use throughout the Linux world, and he puts up where others were content to talk. Second, there's no need to "call out" anyone. That's bullying. Last, the attacks on Poettering have nothing to do with code quality. They have to do with the hyper-partisan ideological purity that's engendered by that other dysfunctional bookend of Linux, Richard Stallman. Poettering is hated and reviled because he dared to change things. He dared to make something better, and for that he has to put up with THREATS ON HIS LIFE.

      We just had a Linux gaming writer step down from actively participating on the site he created because of intense bullying from a Linux podcast - all because he dared to suggest they weren't the best when someone was looking to send a game review copy out.

      This is madness. This is 2014 and bullying is no longer socially acceptable, period. Linus' "I tried and it just isn't me" isn't going to cut it. Admitting you're a mean-spirited SOB doesn't make it better and he'd be fired today for talking to co-workers like he does. In a time when there have been high-profile suicides caused by teen bullying, telling the OpenSUSE security team to kill themselves reveals that there is something stupefyingly wrong with Torvalds' common sense. Perhaps too many sycophants around and no one ever told him no? How would he feel if a teacher treated one of his children at school the way he treats others? What if a teacher ripped up their work in front of them and then suggested they commit suicide? Linus really, really needs to work on his empathy. And when he's been called out on this by a contributor, he insisted on changing the subject. For all his brashness, I don't think he can stand personal scrutiny himself. The Linux kernel would probably be a lot better today if Linus wasn't like a toxic substance to those who consider contributing.

      The bullying needs to end. The defending of Linus needs to end - he's becoming as much an embarrassment now as Richard Stallman has been (such as when Jobs' body wasn't even cold and Stallman was proclaiming it was good for software that he was dead).Linux is bigger than any one person - even Linus. As it is, he now has Greg Kroah-Hartmann answering a question about the best thing about open source by saying it's being able to insult kernel developers. Linus needs to clean up his act, get some therapy (and possibly be screened for sociopathic tendencies) or hand the reins over to someone who doesn't freak out and start ranting about suits and ties and kissing up when he's simply asked to watch his language.

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