back to article Yes, we know Active Directory cloud sync is a MESS, says Microsoft

Microsoft has made a confession: “integrating your on premises identities with Azure AD is harder than it should be” and requires “too many pages of documentation to read, too many different tools to download and configure, and far too much on premises hardware required.” It has also done something about it, in the form of a …

  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    Microsoft has made a confession: “integrating your on premises identities with Azure AD is harder than it should be” and requires “too many pages of documentation to read, too many different tools to download and configure, and far too much on premises hardware required.”

    Oh, but when I say this exact same thing, I need to be berated, chastised and personally attacked. Groovy.

    Still, cheers to MS for fixing this. It's great for their American customers. I genuinely hope it works on the service provider mini-Azures so that the rest of us can have integrated networks provided by companies with zero American legal attack surface. A proper hybrid cloud is a good thing, and Microsoft does look like they're only a few years from having the first stage of that wrapped.

    Good show.

    1. Alex Rose

      But does it work?

      Can you enlighten me as to whether the system is robust or not?

      I'll take "hard but reliable" over "easy but flaky" any day of the week!

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: But does it work?

        It was "miserable as bleep" and "reliable unless you changes something."

        Azure AD is one of those things that introduces a strict change management requirement into your environment. Breathe on it, and it will do something bizarre. But if you're one of those shops that sets up things and then basically doesn't touch them for 5 years, you're good.

        Of course, bear in mind that Azure AD can be configured in a few different ways, depending on the wodge of cash you pay, the apps you're using, the level of integration you're seeking, etc. TBH, from a technical level, it's why I walked away from Azure. I just couldn't stand bleeping with it to keep it working.

        Now, if they're correct, and it's push-button easy (with presumably similar "oh shit" buttons for when something changes) then It's worth a really good long look. That said, almost every company I deal with is moving away from Active Directory as their authentication system. It's used mostly to lash together legacy Windows boxes, but almost always with a cloud connector to a less frustrating and more widely supported service.

        Identity management is a hotly contested battleground right now with dozens of new entrants every year. It is going to be a while before it all shakes out and there is absolutely zero guarantee that Microsoft will emerge the winner. (My money is on a much expanded OpenID.)

        The big problem with Azure AD is that Azure AD isn't exactly like adding a domain controller. You don't just have a copy of your whole AD in the cloud.

        The benefit of Azure AD is that you don't just have a copy of your whole AD in the cloud.

        Active Directory - like the registry before it - has become a dumping ground for information that by all rights should be in easily editable flat text files. (And bleep you too, systemd, with a bronzed goat!) So there's layers upon layers of cruft in the average Active Directory. Some of this cruft you need to make programs run. Some of it is just "junk DNA" waiting to cause a cancerous mutation.

        So the bad stuff doesn't go into the cloud...but much of the good stuff doesn't either. So it takes a lot of whitepapers to find out what's where, when and why. Frankly, I gave up. I started moving away to stuff that doesn't need the Active Directory - or the bleeping registry - to get the job done. I like that "keep it simple" mantra.

        But there are a lot of folks who aren't in that situation. And so this might well be an important tool for them, especially if they are to remain wedded to Microsoft in the long term. Microsoft is certainly making it a huge part of their plans, as it is an important weapon in the Identity Wars...and that's a set of battles Microsoft's "cloud first, mobile first" future can't afford to lose.

        If you could just get your identity from anywhere, why...what could be next?

        1. Vanburen
          Go

          Re: But does it work?

          When we moved from SBS to 2012 essentials, we ditched AD entirely. As we weren't using much of the functionality, besides centralised login and didn't want the overhead of dealing with AD.

          We are also using Google Apps, which I see as being a potential alternative to AD in some ways (at least in a limited sense). What would be nice, is if some company came up with a way to enable centralised login on Windows machines, but against the Google Apps back end instead of AD.

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            Re: But does it work?

            Several options exist. They're all a little bit prickly. Worth a blog, perhaps.

            1. phuzz Silver badge

              Re: But does it work?

              I'd be interested to read that for one.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: But does it work?

            "When we moved from SBS to 2012 essentials, we ditched AD entirely."

            You realise that's not actually possible? Windows Server 2012 Essentials OS is a domain controller by default and it will cease to work if you "remove AD".

            "We are also using Google Apps, which I see as being a potential alternative to AD in some ways

            Been there done that - and migrated off within 2 years. Office 365 is far less pain and far better functionality and end user statisfaction - and not much more money. Get there as soon as you can...

            1. Steven Raith

              Re: But does it work?

              --------

              "When we moved from SBS to 2012 essentials, we ditched AD entirely."

              You realise that's not actually possible? Windows Server 2012 Essentials OS is a domain controller by default and it will cease to work if you "remove AD".

              --------

              I think he means it's only used to provide centralised logins, not to push GPOs, drive mappings, printers, group management, etc. It's when (as a non FTSE500 company with limited tech resources) people start dropping all sorts of complex, but limited benefit funcitonality from AD to workstations that you get problems with cruft and cross contanimation.

              A clean AD is a good AD. AD run by irregular staff, or those not intimately familiar with it, is nothing short of a fucking nightmare.

              FWIW, VAnburen, if you're just using it for centralised logins, I've been dicking about with Zentyal, which uses SAMBA 4 for AD-like (and RSAT controllable) login (and gpo..think it's 2008 level compatible) management, and Openchange (nee zarafa/sogo/whatever) does a pretty good job of behaving like a light exchange server, with calendaring and shizzle. It's no use to you now, obviously, but you might want to fire up a VM and have a look at it.

              SAMBA 4 on Linux and Zentyal as a mail host have come a long way since I last used them - I've been impressed.

              Not sure if I could justify it on a production site meself with my current level of experience with it, but I've just bought a domain name to test it out properly and use it as my own mailserver (mit MX, SPF, antispam etc), calendaring and web host for a while, to see how it handles it. That, and it'll teach me a bit more about linux sysadmin'ing in my spare time, which is a nice excuse to do it, and better than just sitting down and trying to force it upon myself.

              That, and a lot of SMBs are choking on the price of Windows Server licenses - and most of them simply don't need what WIndows Server is doing beyond login and file/print shares.

              Something like Zentyal really does offer enough for most customers, and as a roving engineer for a tech support company, I'd rather have the margin on the service and no chance that a user can install PokerKings!!! or some other such tat on the server than the meagre margin on the Windows Server licensing, thanks.

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: But does it work?

                @Steven Raith don't bother the Anonymous Coward you're talking to is a Microsoft marketing shill. Worse, it's not capable of rational thought. Just ignore it. Hopefully it'll do the world a favor by getting ebola and dying alone.

                1. Steven Raith

                  Re: But does it work?

                  Evening TrevStar.

                  I simply mentioned it as SBS being used just as an auth backend is surprisingly common - once you get the clients off of Exchange, natch. This is normally after it's been installed by a cowboy consultant who just wanted the extra margin on the license and labour required to set it up over a boggo Server install without Exchange, etc.

                  That, and it reminded me of Zentyal and I fancied extolling the virtues of it that I've come across so far.

                  I'm well aware that The AC in question is a moronic shill who is doing MS far, far more harm than good by spreading his deluded madness on a very well read public forum, but sometimes...well, it's like (for want of a better phrase) sticking your dick in crazy.

                  You know you shouldn't, but it's just so tempting...and everyone does it at some point in their life.

                  Peace out,

                  Steven R

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    Re: But does it work?

                    That AC is so far in the "RUN, DEAR $DEITY RUN!!!!!!!" part of the crazy/hot graph that a careful reexamination might be required. :)

                    1. Steven Raith

                      Re: But does it work?

                      Yeah, but I heard they do this thing with thier....

                      Anyway, where were we?

                      Steven R

                      (PS: Dropped you a mail via the contact form, no rush on it, just idle curiousity!)

                      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                        Re: But does it work?

                        Aye, saw it. There are 384 work mails (down from 1021 when I woke up an hour ago) to go before I can start getting into the "El Reg" folder. I'll dig myself out eventually...

                        1. Steven Raith

                          Re: But does it work?

                          Don't talk to me about email - I've been waiting for one very specific email for over a week now about a job interview.

                          Every time the phone buzzes, or the email client pings, I jump.

                          Nnnnng, etc.

                          As such, carry on good sir. Carry on...

                          Steven R

              2. Maventi

                Re: But does it work?

                I second your thoughts on Zentyal, Steve. It's simply brilliant! As an SBS advocate in a past life I find it fills the gap that Microsoft left quite nicely, and it seems to require much less stroking to keep running reliably.

                I've been using Zentyal in a number of small production environments now and there have been no complaints thus far. The only thing really missing is GPO support, but at the same time that would be really just more overhead to worry about for small offices so it's far from a show-stopper.

                1. Steven Raith

                  Re: But does it work?

                  To be fair, it does seem to do basic GPOs (desktop restricitons etc) but as noted, most places that want central auth but don't need complex GPOs typically don't use them at all, because you're talking about, say, a dozen staff and a couple of workgroup printers. Normally a drive mapping and desktop background is enough for most truly local businesses with one office, a dozen staff and six figure turnovers with limited IT budgets!

                  Happily, my boss has seen the light and is looking at building a LAMP+Samba+Mail (likely Kerio - we all know it inside out) stack that we can use for customers who need some of the SBS-y functionality, without the massive bloat.

                  I'll let him have a play with the bare bones (he knows you can just tick LAMP in the debian setup menu but wants to know the steps individually - good lad) and then I'll blow his mind with Zentyal.

                  I've been experimenting and I'm thinking a HyperV bare metal install (easy to teach and manage for single instances, as I have other engineers who aren't quite as geeky as me to consider - so no KVM/XEN, alas) with Zentyal in one VM, and Debian/Kerio in another. Gets you good windows sharing and user management through Samba4, and then Kerio gives you a good mail instance that works as functional Exchange replacement for 90% of users. Obivously this isn't all I'm thinking of (backups, recovery, redundancy etc need to be considered, but lots of this can come from Windows server licensing savings) but as a base concept, it seems pretty sound.

                  Really looking forward to this, not done this much heavy R+D for years - and it's nice to be doing it, perhaps not entirely, but certainly heavily based around, good FLOSS toolsets.

                  Steven R

                  1. Maventi

                    Re: But does it work?

                    Have you looked at XenServer for a single instance host? It's pretty darn good. Management tools seem to be Windows-only for the time being but it's free, robust and easy to install and manage.

                    1. Steven Raith

                      Re: But does it work?

                      Alright dude.

                      Fiddled with it recently but a lack of an extra HDD (it didn't seem to want to allow VMs to be created on the install disk, or to use that as a storage location for them), and lack of incentive to make a bootable USB drive (I was drunk and couldn't find one. I do my best research after a foot tall, cork topped glass of wine) meant it stayed out of the lime light for a bit.

                      I might come back to it now I'm VMing again in anger and could do with a more stable platform than my abused desktop machine. I know there is a project called OpenXenManager floating about which runs on Linux - I contributed language corrections to it years ago when it was OpenXenCenter.

                      Steven R

                      1. Steven Raith

                        Re: But does it work?

                        Little update for those who go back to check their posts after a while....

                        That email I was waiting for that I referred to replying to Trev was for a junior linux sysadmin position in a hosting companies datacentre.

                        Which, bar some t-crossing and i-dotting, I've got.

                        So, in around a month, I'll officially be out of Windows support.

                        Thank fuck.

                        Steven 'vertical learning curve ahead' R

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: But does it work?

          "Azure AD is one of those things that introduces a strict change management requirement into your environment."

          LOL. Erm no. Running any sort of enterprise IT setup in a professional manner requires a 'strict change management policy'. But I guess you wouldnt know that as a low end grunt.

          "it's why I walked away from Azure"

          Just as many companies are heading towards it and it's on target to overtake S3 for market revenue? That figures...

          "That said, almost every company I deal with is moving away from Active Directory as their authentication system"

          You must work for some real tin pot in a cupboard setups then. No FTSE 500 enterprises are moving away from AD whatsoever that I have ever heard of - in a number of years - and I cross paths with many of them. Perhaps you could name a few of these 'every companies' that we might have heard of?

          "used mostly to lash together legacy Windows boxes, but almost always with a cloud connector to a less frustrating and more widely supported service."

          Most legacy Windows boxes are gone now unless you mean Server 2003 R2 - but that's not out of support yet. A more widely supported service than Kerberos lol? Do tell what that might be? Even legacy *NIX and midrange OSs generally work with that.

          "Active Directory - like the registry before it - has become a dumping ground for information that by all rights should be in easily editable flat text files"

          Oh god. So then perhaps you could explain to use how you would manage multimaster replication with flat text files? Or scalable searches of millions of records and parameters? Or control per attribute auditing and ACLs?

      2. AMBxx Silver badge

        Re: But does it work?

        Beta and Active Directory in the same sentence? No thanks, I'll stick to on-premise and just use the cloud stuff for disposables.

    2. Fungus Bob
      Thumb Up

      "Oh, but when I say this exact same thing, I need to be berated, chastised and personally attacked. Groovy."

      That's what makes you Special.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        "That's what makes you Special."

        Shiny. Do I get a short yellow school bus? I could turn it into a testlab on wheels!

        1. Fungus Bob

          Re: Do I get a short yellow school bus?

          You'll just have to be content to bask in the incandescent* glow of the Reg commentards collective disfavor.

          *as in more heat than light

  2. Aslan

    2 errors in the last paragraph

    There's no word on the various enhancements Microsoft promises to deliver will land, but [erhaps some will emerge in the forumMicrosoft has erected to discuss the new tool. ®

    [erhaps should be perhaps

    and

    forumMicrosoft needs a space between forum and Microsoft.

    1. Steven Raith

      Re: 2 errors in the last paragraph

      One major error in your post - the 'send corrections' link is up at the top. ;-) (and they do use it)

      Hugs and kisses

      Steven R

  3. Hans 1
    Facepalm

    > "integrating your on premises identities with Azure AD”

    Ok, so, if I get this correctly, there are window cleaners who want to sync their corporate AD with a cloud ? Did I just get that ? Ouch, just ..... Ouch!

    You will have crackers in your network before you know, and NSA will be in before the sync completes ...

    Now, anybody who thinks that is a good idea REALLY needs to LEAVE the industry.

    1. bob, mon!
      Unhappy

      > "Now, anybody who thinks that is a good idea REALLY needs to LEAVE the industry."

      I won't be surprised if my school goes this route. We are a Windows shop by fiat --- the fiat comes from political administrators who a) aren't on-premises, and b) don't use and aren't impacted by the systems that they impose on their subordinate schools.

      I'd LOVE it if they'd leave the industry, but they're not in the industry and don't care about it.

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