So it costs the Government £70,000 to ask GCHQ to spy on people then?
The UK's Ministry of Justice is planning to spend up to £70,000 on finding out how prisoners like to use their illegal mobile phones in jail, after deciding that jamming the forbidden mobes would be "prohibitively expensive". In an advertisement to companies to bid on the research project, which is due to kick off this month, …
So it costs the Government £70,000 to ask GCHQ to spy on people then?
Why spend £70,000 when they know illegal phones are used for phone sex, drug dealing and playing the lottery.
I've just saved them spending the money, though I don't understand why asking a question costs so much?
That as a law abiding citizen I can't get a mobile signal in my own home, but they seem to be able to get one in Dartmoor prison.
It's fairly obvious why that's the case though.
If mobile operators try to put up masts in residential areas the NIMBY lot complain about it being an eye-sore or that it'll give them cancer. I'd suggest you complain to your parish council since it's likely most of them doing the complaining.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are masts mounted on top of the prison buildings, it's not like the prisoners will be allowed to register any kind of complaint about it.
Can imagine the frustration of someone smuggling a mobile into jail up their hoop (3 pin charger included) only to find out they can't get a good signal on the 3 network.
I think you might have to remove it first.
You should consider moving to Dartmoor.
@Yet Another Commentard
> That as a law abiding citizen I can't get a mobile signal in my own home, but they seem to be able to
> get one in Dartmoor prison.
Perhaps the cause of this is the 200m North Hessary Tor transmitter that is within spitting distance of HMP Dartmoor at Princetown?
" Perhaps the cause of this is the 200m North Hessary Tor transmitter that is within spitting distance of HMP Dartmoor at Princetown?
.... which transmits TV and radio only, and has bugger all to do with mobile comms!
>Can imagine the frustration of someone smuggling a mobile into jail up their hoop
Not that frustrating these days - they're built into trainer heels, brushes, other electrical equipment etc..... One of the more interesting applications of 3D printing.......though in context of prisons, undetectable knives etc are probably more of a worry.
Prisons presumably use femtocells already, since all such calls are illegal no need for warrants - my guess is the £70K is going to someone who can actually explain what the inmates are saying.
I would have though a few cheap femtocells and some recording equipment would have answered that question in short order - as well as detecting the illegal phones.
What's the betting the survey says that the phones are only ever used for checking on family welfare.
Not that we'd give anyone any ideas.
Femtocell - Capture the IMEI numbers of the phones and the SIM number. Check with networks to see if they are used anywhere else. If not then kill both off from the network.
"What's the betting the survey says that the phones are only ever used for checking on family welfare."
What do you use your illegal mobile phone for?
A) Checking on the hoes you are pimping.
B) Telling your crew to beat up the family of someone who pissed you off inside.
C) Checking with your family and talking to your pet dog.
Yea, who is going to answer anything but C.
If they can't afford something to block mobile phone signals, I doubt they can afford something to snoop on them. That or they don't get as many kickbacks as running a consultation.
Either way, they're not going to get any femtocells.
"Either way, they're not going to get any femtocells."
Surely a femtocell isn't going to cost 70K? Or is it just easier for them to create a committee on the issue and pretend to do something about it, rather than ACTUALLY doing something about it?
> Yea, who is going to answer anything but C
A practical joker. :-)
search the cells etc more frequently and remove said devices. It can't be beyond the bods at GCHQ to come up with a portable scanner to help in the detection of the phones?
Then pass the phones to the police as I'm sure they'd be very interested in the numbers being called.
Rather than take them away, let them keep the phones and route them through your own network first before going outside. You can then monitor and gather intelligence on crimes/gangs etc.
Make a sentence out of the words "police" and "intelligence"
Surely the operators can block on location using cell triangulation. Screw's phones could be white listed.
Operators probably can detect that a phone is inside a prison and isn't on the whitelist, but why should they? I assume there isn't a law that makes it their responsibility. If there was, then we wouldn't be discussing the problem.
I can suggest a number of options that may cost around £70,000 to solve the problem rather than just look into it.
Install devices to detect mobile phone signals, wire them up to loudspeakers turned up to 11 with either a 5 second loop of the sound of vuvuzelas being blown at the South African World cup, or Christina Aguilera hitting a high ‘warble’ note (YAAAAAyaaaaYAAAAAohhhhOHHHHHohhhh), both can be played constantly for half an hour, supply the staff with ear defenders.
Pay a telemarketing company to spam call every prisoner with offers on holiday flights leaving that day.
Give all the prisoners mobiles on 3.
Line the roof and/or the walls of the cell block with metal to block and disrupt the signal.
Increase the budget of the prison staff to allow them to employee more people and carry out more searches.
Maharg, could you please point out which of your "solutions" would cost around £70k and not considerably more?
> I can suggest a number of options
Ok, now can you actually *implement* any one option at a cost inferior to GBP70K? Have you even proposed any of your ideas to HMPS?
Shouldn't be too difficult to erect some kind of cage around it.
Daily EMP in the prison.
Means the staff have to work on paper :-)
And can't have pacemakers or nerve stimulators.
So set up an IMSI catcher that downgrades all the connections to A5/0 and log away to your hearts content, throw in some voice print analysis and you should be able to make a nice list of who has what phone and what they are doing with it. It not like you even need an expensive one from Rhode & Schwartz, you could probably repurpose the femto cells the carriers sell to make the phone work in your house.
Or alternatively grep through the carriers logs for the phones that never change location from the prison and are only switched on sporadically then route a copy of all calls to and from those numbers to GCHQ, I mean whats the point in building all that lawfull intercept infrastructure if you not going to use it :)
"phones that never change location from the prison and are only switched on sporadically "
Er, no. If the phones are switched on sporadically they must change location! You probably mean "spasmodically".
All mobiles will have a aerial of a known size why not just have a cheap metal detector on that frequency/ wave length to find the mobiles, they can find shivs with it too. I accept cash Mr Minister thanks
Dear Mr Coward, your proposal needs to estimate the time spent handling false positives before we can consider it for a feasibility study.
So aside from recorded medical issues when would a body search ever give a false positive, metal or phone its all bad
Put a high strength cell station in the prison so the phones lock onto it as the nearest strongest signal, then snoop out the data going through it.
As pointed out efficient mobile detectors are dirt cheap to make. You commission some from a supplier and turn the cells over when the alarm goes off.
Not sure with a femtocell you can force phones on it?
like the idea of the IMSI catcher and banning the phones.
It is actually against the rules to have a mobile in Prison isn't it?
It is illegal to have the phone in Prison.
However once you start intercepting the calls I expect there would be a queue of inmates a mile long waiting to take their case to the European court protesting a violation of their human rights. Just removing the phones is a far lower risk policy.
Actually for UMTS or other CDMA networks it's far from trivial to build one since they have very low transmit powers which additionally don't change regularly. GSM is simple to detect, you just look at the output power of a simple detector and once you find a set of repeating bursts at a certain burst frequency you know you have GSM.
> It is illegal to have the phone in Prison.
It is also illegal to drive over the speed limit, however how would you feel if police started confiscating transgressors' cars? 2 wrongs ≠ 1 right and all that.
GCHQ already has all the taxpayer funded mobile equipment to log the phone IDs and intercept. Make it a GCHQ junior training exercise to collect the info needed. Cost = near zero.
Although the reality is, the Govt does not have the heart (political will) to actually prevent usage.
Or: ALLOW personal mobe ownership (and the internet access that comes with it...) but advertise the fact that all mobes in range of the prison will be monitored via an agreement with the service providers. Hard luck for the privacy of people living next to prisons.
Hard luck for the privacy of people living next to prisons.
I thought we gave up on privacy long ago.
Although the reality is, the Govt does not have the heart (political will) to actually prevent usage. .... Nifty Posted Monday 6th January 2014 12:18 GMT
Nor the physical or metadatabase physical virtual reality command of control for Powerful Developments Forwards either, which has them seriously disadvantaged and rendered as garbage for history to rearrange into the semblance of a an Ab Fab Fabless Tale to Bounteous Treasures with Addictive Pleasures.
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Muuuuum!, they let him out again!
The per minute rate for prisoners phoning home legally is extortionate - especally when you're earning a tenner a week (if I recall correctly 50p + a minute and a lot more if home is overseas). So many of the mobile calls probably are to home and family.
Obviously prisoners' calls need to be controlled, but the present stupid phone policy (family breakdown is a major factor in reoffending and many prisoners are illiterate, so forgot letters) needs rethinking. Make calls home cheap\free and then you know any mobile call detected is for nefarious reasons and needs investigating.
And a femtocell or a tower should be pretty easy in those prisons (a fair few) which are out in the sticks. But I suspect the civil service has been quoted £100m by Capita to do this ...
I used to work in a prison btw.
You can't make calling home free. How is the Home office expected to take it's cut from the outsourced tender.
Well - common sense says it pays for itself - less prisoners coming straight back in on release. And less citizens being mugged or burgled (assuming the Home Office cares - one wonders).
Should help those inside for extortion empathise with their victims a little more then.
Have an upvote for a sensible and compassionate suggestion. It appeals to my bleeding heart.
Side Rant: If prison is meant to turn people into better-functioning members of society, then why is there such glee in anything punitive we do to them? We've known for decades that rehabilitation works and that caging someone like an animal simply produces an animal.
> Should help those inside for extortion empathise with their victims a little more then.
I bet you do think you're being funny.
All they need is a Faraday cage to block the signal.
How much would it cost to wrap chicken wire around a prison and strap it to Earth?
It's surprisingly difficult to build a Faraday cage that can reliably block mobile phone signals. I discovered this while trying to test software that ran on hand-held computers and used GPRS.
My best effort involved a Marks & Spencers biscuit tin with a window cut in in to allow the stylus through, covered in 6mm chicken wire. Even that only weakened the signal.
Drug deals, continuing with their 'business interests' on the outside, porn lines and speaking to family.
Can I have £70k please?
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