Be prepared... to give heathens a badge: UK Scouts open doors to unbelievers From next year, British atheists and their offspring will be able to join the Scouting movement without having to lie or breach their Scout's honour, thanks to an amended promise. All Scouts, and Scout leaders, are required to make the promise. The words vary with age group, and alternatives exist for different religions, but …
There are far many more things than just the Boy Scouts that need to get rid of the Sky Fairy idealogy but this is a good start.
Anyone that swears to a "deity" begins his career with a lie, why would we ever expect them to be honest from that point in.
All we need know is for the Americans to learn that creatonism is myth not fact. In parallel can we please offer the Pope a new job outside of the theater playing role that he currently has. ( The man himself, the Pope that is, is probably a fine human-being but please stop all of this funny hat and dress wearing nonsense - The 1600s are over).
Can't tolerate any other view than yours?
That is a closed mind.
No-one can prove a deity is a lie that is merely a "Belief System" that must exterminate all other points of view.
Remember that more people have died as a direct result of Atheist governments than all religious wars in history (Nazi Germany, USSR, Communist China) 60-80 million Second world war, 20 million staved to death in the Ukraine alone and 100 million starved to death in China in the 1960's as a result of the "Cultural revolution"
Also remember Cambodia.
Also Atheist Governments reintroduce slavery in the form of forced labour camps...etc.
I for one do not want to live in an Atheist country where I cannot hold any other view than one that is imposed on me by the state and my rights to think freely will be outlawed by statute.
Beware! Learn the lessons of the Twentieth Century!!!
First your facts are wrong. Nazi germany was Christian.
Second the stated examples had cults of personality / state. Things were done in the name of Dogma just as bad as religeon.
I do resent ifiots who claim that because I do not believe in a sky fairy I am 2 seconds away from eating someones liver.
"First your facts are wrong. Nazi germany was Christian"
Nazi Germany had Christian's in it but Hitler was not a Christian he believed in Arianism, which was a mystical belief system that they were superior to all others.
Many Christians died in the concentration camps for standing up to the Nazi government.
The Nazis where not Christian, you need to do some reading.
Start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum you will see that this does not fit with the teaching that "all men are equal"
This post has been deleted by its author
> Nazi Germany had Christian's in it but Hitler was not a Christian he believed in Arianism, which was a mystical belief system that they were superior to all others.
And you think that Nazism is not a religion?
It ticks all the boxes: unswerving belief in one ideal despite what others might say, deifying an individual, the purging of the unbelievers.
Not all religions are to do with a supernatural deity. The issue is the behaviour that ensues and the mindless violence that inevitably follows.
"Nazi Germany had Christian's in it but Hitler was not a Christian he believed in Arianism, which was a mystical belief system that they were superior to all others."
I think you're a little mixed up here - the Nazi theoreticians believed that the _Aryans_ were superior to all others; I doubt if any of them could even have explained the Arian heresy, let alone have followed it.
> It is said by some that Hitler was Catholic, but there is no evidence of him practising Catholicism at any point after he left home.
On the other hand, the evidence for him practising the philosophy of Friedrich "God is dead" Nietzsche is relatively plentiful.
However, the issue is not, "who has the worst record in the past," but (if you want to be pragmatic), "What is the logical conclusion of your belief?" Are the principles which govern your behaviour logical or irrational, based on something you made up? Is a "contract with society" something which you would break if you thought you could get away with it? If not, why not?
These things are important because although individuals may be irrational in ways which disadvantage and/or benefit others, society in general will tend to the logical conclusion of the common belief. I'm happy to be corrected, but the *logical* conclusion of atheism appears to be hedonism and/or existential nihilism. I'm not sure if the New Atheists know how much amusement they offer the rest of us as we contemplate their militant nihilism, or at least it would if they weren't so wretchedly intent on force-feeding it to our children from age five.
I see little evidence of man improving in the move away from God. Having freed the slaves in the (very religious) 19th century, the rise of globalism has seen their reinstatement. We keep them out of sight (like our wars), moving the "downstairs" to China, the Philippines and Bangladesh, but that's just a longer staircase. We used to use gun-boats to enforce trade, now we use the IMF and WTO. StarTrek is a lie. We are not better people, we are not evolving. We have better tools and technology but greed and pride remain. Knowledge has increased, we can run to and fro across the whole earth but we are the same as always. Our liberal democracies rush headlong down the path of illiberalism, seeking to control all aspects of life; even redefining vocabulary where words imply values stubbornly resistant to the government-sanctioned morality. 1984 was supposed to be a parody, not a prophecy.
> These things are important because although individuals may be irrational in ways which disadvantage and/or benefit others, society in general will tend to the logical conclusion of the common belief.
The truth of the matter is, getting your morality from holy books has proved to be a terrible way to run a society. In the past, people have had their skin ripped off, were hanged, were castrated, were stoned, were ostracised, were stolen from all *because* a religion told people to do those things. Those things were specifically in the Bible as recommendations.
Now, in the west, we have seen a marked decline in religious belief (or at least a decline in the radical pursuit of it even if we pay lip service to it) which coincides with the phasing out of these things. In the east, where religious belief is still practiced devoutly, we see that these evil practices in abundance.
Whether there is a direct correlation or not, I feel inadequate to prove or disprove this with real figures, but ti certainly makes a lot of sense to me.
With or without religion, we still have criminals and the fact that we have individuals that wish to rail against societies rules is an aspect of human life that we may never be rid of. I actually don't think that religion plays any part in this.
> I see little evidence of man improving in the move away from God. Having freed the slaves in the (very religious) 19th century, the rise of globalism has seen their reinstatement. We keep them out of sight (like our wars), moving the "downstairs" to China, the Philippines and Bangladesh, but that's just a longer staircase.
You may be right, but they are not religious slaves in the theistic sense. They are slaves of a new elite but we should recognise them as what they are, rich, powerful and in control. They are the new tyrants. They are just a lot less obvious about it.
> I'm not sure if the New Atheists know how much amusement they offer the rest of us as we contemplate their militant nihilism, or at least it would if they weren't so wretchedly intent on force-feeding it to our children from age five.
Well I'm an atheist and I don't feel the slightest bit militant and certainly not nihilist. I just don't believe that God exists. I don't see the relationship. I think that you are confusing different issues that are unrelated to each other.
For instance, the US is one of the most openly religious countries in the western world and they are one of the key militant drivers of the 20th century both in terms of armed conflict and in economic terms. And it is practically suicide to mention the word atheist in large swathes in the US.
For myself, I would much rather force feed my children with rationality and an active quest for truth rather than dogmatic indoctrination of a fairy tale.
"First your facts are wrong. Nazi germany was Christian.
Second the stated examples had cults of personality / state. Things were done in the name of Dogma just as bad as religeon.
I do resent ifiots who claim that because I do not believe in a sky fairy I am 2 seconds away from eating someones liver."
Nazis were not Christian but Arianist.
The USSR, Communist China, Khmer Rouge and the first French republic were all Atheist governments so come on lets hear your praise of what wonderful governments they were. They imposed Atheism on all their people and all alternate views were crushed.
They all killed millions of people and persecuted people of Faith. This is a historical fact !!!
What this demonstrates is that the Atheist way is not a wonderful utopia instead it makes distopias instead, which in every case become despotic governments, show me an exception if you can?
Human rights go out the window, this is not my view you can read it in any history book.
> Nazis were not Christian but Arianist.
You really need to learn to use a search engine. One very simple example from a pool of many:
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
> This is a historical fact !!!
Shit! My apologies; the three exclamation marks rule declares you the winner of this debate.
> The USSR, Communist China, Khmer Rouge and the first French republic were all Atheist governments so come on lets hear your praise of what wonderful governments they were. They imposed Atheism on all their people and all alternate views were crushed.
Those governments might have been secular, if that's what you mean, but they didn't do their oppression in the name of atheism. They were just bastards. Anti-religion didn't really figure in it, apart from perhaps China which oppresses everyone equally for just about any reason they can think of.
The Chinese government also suppresses followers of Falun Gong, which isn't a theist religion at all. It just teaches a philosophy different to that of the government, so the government feels threatened about it.
The key difference here is that religious wars in the past were done *because* of religion. Moors were killed by Christians in the crusades *because* they were muslim. Secular oppressors do not do their oppression in the name of atheism, they do it because they are power-hungry bastards.
Half my Family lived in the USSR, my Father escaped before the borders were shut.
I visited my Family the USSR in 1990 just as it was crumbling I am pleased to live in a society where I can be myself.
I saw where many churches had been demolished and the only people who went into a church that was standing were women, as men were frightened that they would lose their jobs. It was a very interesting experience that I'll always remember.
True freedom is being able to associate freely with others and hold ideas/beliefs without harassment.
Capitalism isn't ideal but being told what you can or cannot believe or say in a public arena is a very slippery slope and this is slowly happening :(
"True freedom is being able to associate freely with others and hold ideas/beliefs without harassment."
The Orthodox Church in Russia seems keen to re-establish itself as an arm of the State Government. Various discriminatory laws have been passed at its insistence. An organised religion always tends to want to use the political stage to further it own hierarchy's temporal ambitions.
This post has been deleted by its author
"Capitalism isn't ideal but being told what you can or cannot believe or say in a public arena is a very slippery slope and this is slowly happening :("
I don't get where this Christian sense of persecution is coming from (yes I realise I'm making an assumption it was written from that point of view). It seems to be coming more and more commonly voiced and I'm not sure if this is some organised tactic or believers are getting upset that they no longer have the same influence when telling other believer or non-believers that they're wrong.
Yeah yeah yeah, now that the old Orthodox church is back in business, you can go to jail for blasphemy and for discussing homosexuality in public. Previously, Jewish citizens' papers were marked "Zhid" -- I wonder if they still are! It wasn't atheism that made Stalin what he was, it was Stalin. The habit of absolute belief made it easier for him to rule, is all.
Apart from your incorrect "facts" (Nazi Germany was most definitely NOT atheist), you are accusing us of not tolerating anyone's view that's different from ours. Aren't you doing exactly that - insisting that scouts MUST believe in one of a specified list of gods.
You're also being rather selective with your evidence. The Crusades - thousands of deaths supposedly in the name of religion. The various church clampdowns on anyone who belonged to a slightly different sect of the SAME religion (not just Christian here). The burning & drowning of witches. All these are examples of either religion as an excuse to invade another country, or to get rid of anyone who wasn't controlled by the church.
"Apart from your incorrect "facts" (Nazi Germany was most definitely NOT atheist), you are accusing us of not tolerating anyone's view that's different from ours. Aren't you doing exactly that - insisting that scouts MUST believe in one of a specified list of gods."
No just saying Scouts allow you to swear to who you believe in (or not), guides don't give you the option (whereas you used to be able too) so an option has been removed.
Why not do what the scouts have done and give people the option?
Not giving an option imposes one view on everyone else and goes against the ethos of the founders!
Oh dear AC, you really don't seem to understand that not even mentioning god - or a list of approved acceptable gods - doesn't IMPOSE anything on anyone. Whether someone believes in a god or gods or not, shouldn't be relevant to their membership of an organisation like the scouts or guides. If you do believe in a god, not having to mention them every time you make a vow or promise isn't imposing anything on you. If you don't happen to believe in any gods then making that person choose from a list chosen by someone else IS imposing a view on them.
Please answer one question - WHY should there be any mention of god in the vow that scouts give? What has someone's personal belief got to do with it?
> No just saying Scouts allow you to swear to who you believe in (or not), guides don't give you the option (whereas you used to be able too) so an option has been removed.
They're not saying that you can't swear your allegiance to God.
They just don't insist on it. There is a difference.
"Remember that more people have died as a direct result of Atheist governments than all religious wars in history (Nazi Germany, USSR, Communist China) 60-80 million Second world war, 20 million staved to death in the Ukraine alone and 100 million starved to death in China in the 1960's as a result of the "Cultural revolution" " [citation needed]
Only because the machinery was there to enable it. That's technological progress, nothing to do with fanaticism, or the lack thereof.
I'm sure if various of the current religious nutters could get hold of them, they'd be popping nukes off in as many major centres of population as they could. To save our souls of course. I'd suspect "ours" would have done the same centuries ago in sandier parts of the world had this been possible, for the same spurious reaons. There are those who think that given the chance some of "our" dodgier mates remain inclined so to do.
[Implied FAIL Icon]
"Remember that more people have died as a direct result of Atheist governments than all religious wars in history"
You're ignoring the centuries of religious crusades which preceded modern history. By head of capita I'd wager they're right up there with any modern atrocity.
I'm an agnostic atheist - I don't *know* whether there is/are a god/gods, but on full consideration of probabilities I believe there isn't/aren't and act in accordance with that belief. In that, I believe in one one less god than a Muslim, and one or three (I never could understand the idea of the "Holy Trinity", just like almost all Christians) than a Christian. Despite my lack of belief, I have never committed an atrocity or felt that it is time for a war to cleanse the world of people who do believe in gods. However, I do think there is a very nasty hypocrisy in some people who claim to have sensations that guide their actions being elevated to positions of power and respect in society *because of those beliefs* , and others being forcibly detained and medicated.
" (Nazi Germany, USSR, Communist China) 60-80 million Second world war, 20 million staved to death in the Ukraine alone and 100 million starved to death in China in the 1960's as a result of the "Cultural revolution" "
"Beware! Learn the lessons of the Twentieth Century!!!"
Lessons such as, it's much easier to kill lots of people when you have mass transit, machine guns, chemical weapons, high-order explosives and a greater-than-ever abundance of potential victims?
"Atheism IS a belief - in the Standard Model of physics."
What a load of bol*****s.
I very much doubt that anyone outside a small group of science graduates and maybe amateur readers of New Scientist ( av. circulation around 125,000 and falling according to Wikipaedia) knows or thinks anything whatever about the standard model of physics.
And I'd hazard a guess that both the physicists who accept the standard model and those who mistrust it have the same proportion of religious believers.
You're probably right - atheism is more a belief in Newtonian physics for most people. I.e. the universe is just a bunch of stuff floating about. The problem is that people are lead to believe that we've reached the end of physics - when we have much more to find out still.
Blimey Godwin already.
Anyway, a few things:
1) 59% saying “Christian” means nothing on the census other than they were born in the west and told by their parents that’s what they are, and they tick the box. How many were Jedi? Does that make Jedi a religion?
2) Atheism by its very definition is not a religion, it is the absence of one.
3) “Got mit uns” – Hitler was a Catholic in at the least the same way all of your 59% are. Even if you now choose to distance yourselves, then why did all the Catholics follow him, surely they would have seen at the time what an evil thing was happening. Or was god too busy to point it all out to them?
The Scouts have done something very correct here dropping the god bit. Of course, they could keep it, in which case I suggest non-religious types head for The Woodcraft Folk. Like Scouts, but no religion.
"The Scouts have done something very correct here dropping the god bit."
They haven't dropped the God bit (Unlike the guides) they given you an option to drop it if you (or more likely your Parents) don't want too.
Unfortunately this whole debate has been cause by parents using their children as proxies to change something that their kids don't care about. Political correctness gone mad (9 and 10 year olds aren't interested in religious debates or Atheism).
You join the scouts and guides to be with your friends (as I did and my children do) you don't give a toss about the promise, you just want to go camping.
"9 and 10 year olds aren't interested in religious debates or Atheism"
Nonsense. I had to go and see the local Brownies leader after my daughter refused to write a prayer because she didn't believe in God. I doubt she's that rare in having already formed a strong view.
> Unfortunately this whole debate has been cause by parents using their children as proxies to change something that their kids don't care about. Political correctness gone mad (9 and 10 year olds aren't interested in religious debates or Atheism).
Exactly, so why bring God into it at all?
The biggest crime is indoctrinating kids into religion dogma in the first place. Saying to your kids that you don't mind one way or the other and that they should make up their own mind is the sensible thing to do.
If a kid previously was not religious, they were forced to swear allegiance to one God or another to join the scouts. It's wrong. I personally side with the Guides and think that religion should stay well out of something that has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.
Hey that is quite insulting.
Just because you do not believe in a deity, does not mean there isn't one.
People who swear to do their duty to one are not all lying.
And just because most of us Brits know creationism is a Myth, and Evolution is a proven theory does not mean those who do believe in the fallacy are bad people.
I myself do believe there is a higher power, some deity in some form, who or what they are I am not arrogant enough to think I know.
"Just because you do not believe in a deity, does not mean there isn't one."
Just because you do believe in a deity, does not mean there is one.
"People who swear to do their duty to one are not all lying."
No, just delusional. Possibly schizophrenic (hearing voices, seeing things that aren't real). Oh yeah, and cannibals (e.g. Christians - if they truly believe they eat Christ's body, what else would you call them?)
"does not mean those who do believe in the fallacy are bad people."
Actually, it does. Religion is child abuse. Religion protects child abusers. Religion causes wars (almost all wars are based on religion - look what we are suffering now). Religion advocates sexism. Religion actively inhibits progress (if we hadn't overthrown many of the Christian shackles, we'd still be blood-letting and trying to pray famine away).
"I myself do believe there is a higher power, some deity in some form, who or what they are I am not arrogant enough to think I know."
That's just a general "There has to be something beyond this" deist-type thought, there may be; there may not be. Acting like a douche in order to get a "better" beyond makes the current "now" a bit shit. As this is what religion teaches people to do, religion is therefore evil by its very nature.
People are perfectly capable of being dicks without some sexually frustrated berk in a fancy hat giving them an excuse to be dicks.
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2024
