The real answer is...
Samsung has indadvertedly revealed in court documents its plans for a pair of Windows Phone 8 devices. The dual-core handsets - dubbed "Odyssey" and "Marco" - are both set to roll out with the mobile platform's release later this year. There are no detailed specifications, but the court copy shows the Samsung Odyssey features …
What a fucking waste of great hardware.
Is what they have.
That depends if they've fixed the deficiencies with Windows Phone 7 and produced a phone which is actually compelling to buy at or below the price of similar specced phone running Android. My guess is no it won't but it might go some way to making WP useful.
As for Samsung, I suspect their handsets are just a way to hedge their bets and / or contractual obligations. I doubt they or Microsoft really expect to sell many of these handsets compared to the Galaxy phones for example.
"That depends if they've fixed the deficiencies with Windows Phone 7"
Specifically what deficiencies? I ask because I have a Lumia 710 and really like it.
The main deficiency is there's no compatibility with WP8, so effectively when that is released WP7 is dead and 90% of devs for apps and stuff will jump to WP8 to keep their revenue stream alive.
Other than that it's not a bad OS, WP could have been quite impressive if MS would have allowed some phones to upgrade to WP7 to WP8 and allowed apps to be cross compatible.
As for cost it's going to be higher, isn't an OS licence like 50 quid or something?
Big money in the mid-range market.
Surely the deficiency would be with WP8 not having compatibility with WP7, not the other way round?
> Specifically what deficiencies? I ask because I have a Lumia 710 and really like it.
Lack of SD Card support - the Lumia 710 only comes with 8GB, as do the majority of WinPho devices so far. That really leaves you with just over 7GB for apps and storage - just not enough for most users these days. Especially when 32GB cards cost under £15!
Lack of support for dual-core processors was limiting the development of games as the most comon graphics chipsets weren't available. I'm not a gamer myself but a large section of the smartphone market is being driven by mobile gaming and, again, the lack of storage isn't helping
Lack of screen resolution support. As the market (inexplicably) moves towards gigantuan screens, WP7's lack of support for higher res screens is killing it.
I agree that WP7 is nice but it does feel more like a fancy feature-phone OS rather than a full-on smartphone OS - in much the same way that iOS was until v3.
"Specifically what deficiencies? I ask because I have a Lumia 710 and really like it."
I've already said them in another comment. And yes they're deficiencies.
SD is allowed in WP8, and so are larger resolutions and multi-core. So in that case yes.
And all those things are not seen as deficiencies to mainstream users - WP7 is very solid and WP8 looks like it should be even better.
Good to see the Android shills out in force. Always entertaining :-)
"And all those things are not seen as deficiencies to mainstream users"
Indeed, not, for those who doubt it, please check the millions of WP7 phones sold.
I'm sorry to see you got a downmod. I asked for the deficiencies sincerely and you answered. Things like lack of SD slot and 8GB storage on the Lumia don't really bother me - it's a tonne of storage for what I need, but it's interesting to see what concerns others. Similarly, I use my Lumia for business so if it's not as great with games as an iPhone or such, that doesn't bother me. But again, different people different needs. All of these things should be addressed with the Win8 devices, I would imagine. Win8 has SD slot support as well as multi-core and different screen resolutions (though like you, I prefer a small phone-sized device, not a min-tablet so I wont be buying any giant versions. I'll probably stick with my current Lumia for quite a while).
If you really think lack of SD is a reason WP hasn't dominated, you've even stupider than you appear. As for multi-core... you can't even TELL if a phone has it without getting overly technical, you blithering idiot.
"if MS would have allowed some phones to upgrade to WP7 to WP8..."
I don't think this is a policy issue. I think this is a technical issue.
Windows 8 sensors are expected to appear as Human Interface Devices connected via USB: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/01/24/supporting-sensors-in-windows-8.aspx
"Reducing the cost of developing and supporting drivers was another challenge. In order to make it simpler for sensor hardware manufacturers and PC makers, we wrote a single Microsoft-supplied driver that would work with all Windows-compatible sensor packages connected over USB and even lower power busses like I2C. This sensor class driver enables hardware companies to innovate with sensor hardware while ensuring that their hardware can be supported easily with drivers that ship with the Windows operating system.
"To help speed adoption of the class driver, Microsoft worked with industry partners to introduce the specification into public standards. In July 2011 the standard for sensors was introduced in the HID (Human Interface Device) specification of the USB-IF (HID spec version 1.12, introduced with review request #39). This standardization enables any sensor company to build a sensor package that is compatible with Windows 8 by following the public standard USB-IF specifications for compliant device firmware. This reduces the time and cost required to integrate sensor hardware with Windows 8 PCs. Other benefits include a lower support cost and more consistent hardware capabilities for Windows 8 PCs that are equipped with sensors."
My guess is that the built-in sensors in WP7 hardware do not appear like that, meaning the standard class driver can't be used. That then puts the onus on the OEM to write drivers that do work. Then we fall into the standard problem: OEMs never do a good job of upgrades.
I can see other problems: Windows 8 boots from UEFI but Windows CE used custom bootloaders; Windows 8 expects to find information about the system (such as RAM size) in ACPI tables, Windows CE requires the OEM to compile that into the image (or provide an implementation of an OEM Adaptation Layer API that discovers it). Much better to start from a hardware platform that mirrors Windows RT tablets than to try to upgrade from something that boots in a very different way.
The aim for Windows Phone 8 is to be much more like general Windows - a 99.99% Microsoft-provided OS, using MS class drivers where at all possible, hardware-vendor supplied drivers where not, with the ability for OEMs to add limited customization. That allows updates to be shipped from Windows Update, rather than getting the OEM to rebuild the ROM image. The reason, in my view, is security: any security updates required on Windows Phone right now have a long and torturous path to get to the end-user with plenty of roadblocks along the way. With phones becoming ever more important to their users, and ever more functional, there will be greater incentives for attack and MS need a fast path to provide updates. The permissions model limits what malware could do, but there can still be problems in the container model (e.g. JIT bugs in the CLR).
I've got to admit that yes, I am pretty stupid. I am not ashamed to admit it.
One of the ways you can tell how stupid I am is the way I go berserk in online forums and start insulting people who disagree with me.
I am peculiar that way (among others).
Microsoft is just waiting patiently until Android and iOS have cancelled themselves out in some sort of cataclysmic legal chain reaction that wouldn't be possible without the USPTO and it's faithful European lackey.
Soon we'll all be forced to use WinPho :P
Seriously though, Microsoft do a great job of competing, unless you're a die hard fan boy from one camp or another their efforts are well worth a look. I only dismissed them from my last purchase because their phones were a bit behind the hardware curve.
Having just bought a used Lumia 800 to give WP7 a try I really like it. It's the best mobile UI I've tried and I've tried them all. Anyone who dismisses it hasn't tried it.
So what if the CPU isn't multicore etc at the moment. The OS is so fast, fluid and responsive that you don't need multiple cores.
It's visually better than iOS and Android (don't let the tiles fool you, there's loads of other screens that are more slick looking).
Why simply have icons that do nothing? it is much more useful to have a dashboard that tells you more than just a few message counts.
... and there are no apps, no developers making apps
... the Microsoft lockin and guaranteed security problems.
... and they will leave you in the lurch when Windows Phone 9 arrives with another new app format.
Thats assuming of course that Windows Phone 8 phones are actually good. That's unlikely, as Samsung really don't want to make them (like HTC didn't), they are just forced into doing so because of part of the Android patent protection racket that Microsoft have been running. This is little more than fulfilling a contractual obligation, so you can bet they won't be anywhere as near as good as a S3, S2, Nexus etc..
"... and there are no apps, no developers making apps"
There are over 100,000 apps and WP reached thet figure faster than Android. Developer interest in WP8 is soaring.
"... the Microsoft lockin and guaranteed security problems."
What lockin? More so than Apple or Android? Why? Oh and WP7 is more secure than Android and WP8 will be even better with on-board encryption, bit-locker support etc.
"... and they will leave you in the lurch when Windows Phone 9 arrives with another new app format."
Bullshit. WP7 got "left in the lurch" if you like, because it rested on the old WinCE kernel. Now that WP8 uses the NT Kernel, same as the desktop, there will be no more "left in the lurch". And don't tell me Android users don't ever get "left in the lurch"!
"Thats assuming of course that Windows Phone 8 phones are actually good. That's unlikely"
Oh really? You've obviously not read any press on the matter.
Please please please get yourself more informed before you come on here spouting your rubbish.
I can dismiss it because I own a Lumia 800 and have used it extensively. The UI is very beautiful, there's no denying. Animations and effects are very fluid and slick. The main functionality is pretty intuitive and useful. I like the blue tooth navigation and the Nokia Drive app is useful even if it does come up with some pretty braindead routes at times. If I did not own a smart phone before this device I'd probably be quite happy with it.
But I have owned other smartphones and this device is poor by comparison. There is little customisability in the UI aside from ordering tiles around a long vertical list and setting a screensaver wallpaper. Forget dynamic widgets, backgrounds, animated backgrounds, multiple screens, folder groups, or shortcuts because they don't exist.
Other annoyances include a wifi / power / signal strength bar which comes and goes whenever it feels like it, badly placed buttons in the messaging app which make it far too easy to hit send when you meant carriage return, an utterly retarded APN settings which lumps 3G and MMS together as a single setting which is on or off (i.e. you can't receive an MMS without also enabling 3G), a volume control which makes no distinction between call volume, ringtone volume or game volume, the need to run a fat sync client with the device and a raft of other irritations.
By far the worst sin is the lack of multitasking. When an app is not in the foreground, it's suspended or killed. Most phone OSes do that too but they also provide ways to run services or broadcast receivers to in the background. So a VOIP app might listen to an incoming call and launch up the app to handle the call. The closest thing in WP is a background agent which has so many restrictions that it's utterly useless which explains why Skype is too on WP7.
The problem with WP is not that it's a bad phone OS, but that it's poor by comparison. I expect WP8 will fix a lot of these annoyances and a level of refinement e.g. maybe Skype will get properly integrated. But I'll reserve judgement until it appears. One thing is certain. Neither my Lumia 800 or yours will be getting it. All that is promised is a WP 7.8. which updates the home page and little else of note.
For "blue tooth navigation" I meant "blue tooth handsfree"
"... and there are no apps, no developers making apps"
There are over 20,000 apps which disproves both parts one and two of your statement at once. And there are only so many apps that can be useful. Once you've got what you need, it doesn't matter if there are ten thousand apps you haven't installed or two-hundred thousand apps you haven't installed. Also, as of the release of WP8, you're going to be able to use the same development tools and APIs for Desktops, phones and tablets all at once. (And with the new APIs for handling screen size and resolution, sometimes you'll even be able to deploy the same software to all platforms). This is a BIG thing.
"... the Microsoft lockin and guaranteed security problems."
As locked in as if you spent your money on apps for a iPhone or an Android phone - same whichever you invest in. Unless you're talking about something else in which case I have to ask what. As to guaranteed security problems, again, what are the security problems WP7 has?
"... and they will leave you in the lurch when Windows Phone 9 arrives with another new app format."
Metro is the next big shift. We've had the Win32 APIs since Windows 95. That's a pretty good run. The new Metro APIs will undoubtedly last through a few versions of Windows at least. And Microsoft have always been pretty good about maintaining backwards compatability. For example, you can run WP7 apps on WP8 which kind of undermines what you've just said.
"they are just forced into doing so because of part of the Android patent protection racket that Microsoft have been running."
It's so good to have members of the Samsung Board of Director's gracing us with their presence and sharing this knowledge. I don't mean to be rude, but for the sake of any few doubters could you just confirm your status as someone privvy to the inner decisions of Samsung's business decisions? ; )
"This is little more than fulfilling a contractual obligation, so you can bet they won't be anywhere as near as good as a S3, S2, Nexus etc.."
Clearly Samsung has a clever strategy in which they run TWO R&D departments, one of which makes the quality goods that you admire and another which they fund separately deliberately so that it can waste money developing inferior goods as well. It couldn't be that they're likely to produce similar models using similar processes and research. That would just be... efficient. Not to mention that they would undoubtedly prefer to sell lacklustre products so that their rivals would outsell them. If I were heading up the WP8 side of the business that's totally what I would do - because it would look great to the investors if the other WP sellers all did much better than us.
Sorry - I don't usually get sarcastic but your post is just a mix of false statements and unsupported speculation. Samsung have a very good reputation for quality. I doubt they'll tone that down because they can't be bothered. If you told your board of directors that you weren't really bothered about the Microsoft market, you would be out of the door before you could say "Anyeong".
"Anyone who dismisses it hasn't tried it."
Really? Closed-minded platform advocate much?
Yeah, yeah, whatever you say Microsoft shill.
Good luck with the single digit % market share and your 'turd ecosystem'!
@Spearchucker Jones 15:09
Good to see the Microsoft shills out in force. Always entertaining :-)
The only real mileage is if you can flash Android to them and have an eBay account 6 months after they launch.
You don't know until the price is released. Actually. Competitiveness isn't just about specs, it's about price as well. But you already know that, you're just a troll.
Wow, someone is a staunch and foaming defender of an untenable position. You should see if the Flat Earth Society are hiring..
No thanks. I would rather saw my arm off with a rusty hacksaw.
Have you used it? I guess not.
The arm or the hacksaw?
>No thanks. I would rather saw my arm off with a rusty hacksaw.
Mr AC, you've lived your life shielded under your cloak of anonymity. I now give you a test - on the opposite side of the room is a WP7. You'll notice that your arm is chained to the wall and that you have an Android Phone in your hand with no battery left. At your feet you'll notice a rusty hacksaw. You have a choice Mr AC, denounce your love of Android and cut off your arm and make the call on the WP7 and you'll be free. Or stay attached to your beloved Android forever...
...heed my warning Mr AC....
1. Use rusty hacksaw to cut chain.
2. Find guy that chained my arm to the wall and fling WP at his head.
"Mr AC, you've lived your life shielded under your cloak of anonymity."
Says someone who post as "anonumous coward"
In the centre of a darkened room slumps a figure tied to a chair. A TV set in front of him burst into life, and a grotesque white faced puppet with swirls on each cheek appears, accompanied by a deep voice.
"Mr Elop. So far you have played the corporates to your advantage and racked up huge stock options, not caring for anyone's fortune but your own. Your success has been massive - but only when measured in financial terms. Your soul has become horribly corrupted with the filth of your journey to the top of this greasy pole. I now offer you a path to salvation. Before you lies the bruised shell of a once-proud and mighty mobile phone empire. It can be salvaged, should you choose to do so. Or, you could follow the path of evil and attempt to destroy it totally, hoping your masters will reward you in the future for this wanton act of destruction. When this recording ends, you will find yourself on a burning platform which will destroy you completely in 60 seconds. Salvation or destruction - make your choice."
The chains holding the figure to the chair fall away, and the floor around him ignites in a burst of flame...
"The real question is, will they be strong enough to claw a greater chunk of the mobile market in 2012 than WinPho has managed to clock up thus far."
As always, el reg can't seem to resist taking a swipe at MS/WP...
Objective journalism please, not this troll fodder. /sigh
Not sure where the swipe is here?
They've asked the question as to whether WP8 will help M$ get a larger market share than they have so far...
Seems legit to me?
The specs seem pretty underwhelming, like a mid/low-end smartphone. This smacks of Microsoft's standard "that's a nice Android phone business you have there, it would be a shame if anything were to happen to it, if you were to forget to make some Winpho, too, and got sued over patents" racket.
The same thing happened to HTC, they grudgingly made some underwhelming devices, but you could tell that their hearts weren't in it. It's not really the way to win the hearts and minds of device makers, or the public.
huh? it'll have the processing capability of an asus transformer prime / htc one x / sg3
this phone should be nippy.
if samsung wanted to go cheap, they wouln't source the chips from qualcomm.
..all of which are considerably slower than a high-end device, or even a £159 tablet at about 1/3 the price.
Sure, the hardware is passable. The same was true of the HTC Winpho devices. They smacked of the signs of conservative off the shelf stuff bolted together in a largely workmanlike way to produce a risk averse midrange device to satisfy the letter of their obligations.
iPhone 4s or Galaxy S3 they weren't. The same is true of the apparent specs of the Sammy Winpho things.
Maybe there will be Opera for WInPho, so we can gather more tedious foaming at the mouth solipsists together in one place to poke with sticks.. XD
To get it out this fast, no doubt they've had to remove some features that were present before - again. And since it's a whole new OS there will obviously be annoying bug regressions. We shall have to see what it's really like.
What a fun thread this is, ACs arguing with each other (or themselves who can tell?) because they're too scared to admit they [dis]like WP.
My 15 month old Galaxy S2 has specs not far off this and with Jelly Bean is as slick or slicker in terms of polish. Not to mention not being totally locked down, and with more and better apps.
Also, am I the only one that doesn't like Metro? I find it inefficient and clumsy. It wastes lots of screen space and e.g. the all apps list is a pain to navigate. Once you get past the tiles (which are nice, granted) it's just not very good.
One of my coworkers has a Samsung with WP7.5 and we have tried racing to do various tasks and the SGS2 generally has won handsomely, that is if the WP phone can do it at all (case in point: try emailing a PDF that you've just downloaded from the web. In Android it's Share->Gmail from the Adobe Reader app, in WP7.5 we simply couldn't figure out how to do it, the Adobe Reader app has no share function and WP doesn't let you near the filesystem to do it manually.)
If this is an example of a typical WP8 launch phone then I'll be sticking with Android for my next phone.
"...try emailing a PDF that you've just downloaded from the web. In Android it's Share->Gmail from the Adobe Reader app"
So you are criticizing an OS because a particular app lacks a certain feature in WP? Blame the app developers, not the OS.
I refer you to the "Smoked by Windows" campaign where WP has won 98% of all the challenges against both Android and iPhone.
"I refer you to the "Smoked by Windows" campaign where WP has won 98% of all the challenges against both Android and iPhone"
A marketing campaign run by Microsoft, where the results were naturally in favour of Microsoft, except where they lost and refused to acknowledge it.
I refer Jim to the article in Forbes
On a separate note, I used a windows phone 7.5 for three months and quite liked it, but prefer the Android eco system, but that is just my preference. Each to their own.
> I refer you to the "Smoked by Windows" campaign where WP has won 98% of all the challenges against both Android and iPhone.
A 'challenge' where WP gets to choose the result, has the WP preconfigured for that, the WP user has practiced it, and the umpire is the WP advocate.
Even then they lost a few times.
instead of being a twat, why not enlighten the rest of us, how would you email a pdf you downloaded from the internet?
it sounds like a reasonable use case to me.
Personally I'd do it the obvious way and email the URL that the PDF was downloaded from. Or is that too difficult for you?
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