Does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply to companies?
Also, is Apple's patent even a new non-obvious invention? If not, it's not patentable anyway ...
Apple has told the Dutch court it expects Samsung to write to all its European dealers recalling Galaxy phones and tablets, with stock to be returned within 14 days at Samsung's expense. The letter, seen by Dutch publication Webwereld, requires all stocks to be immediately shipped back to the Netherlands (where Samsung handles …
Does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply to companies?
Also, is Apple's patent even a new non-obvious invention? If not, it's not patentable anyway ...
The injunction isn't to do with a patent, it's the over-all design of the device.
beyond reasonable doubt is a concept of criminal courts. In civil cases the boot is squarely on the other foot. Rather than having to "prove" that the defendant is guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" the defendant has to demonstrate their innocence on the balance of probability.
why aren't car firms or motorbike manufacturers or cycle designers or whatever else where there is competition suing each other?
Apple, amongst other tech firms, reminds me of the baby that's had its lollipop pinched, bawling away, even though it knows it has a bag of lollipops in the pram.
Ford sued Ferrari recently over the use of the F150 name
...that the "Potato Potato" sound of their engines is a trademark.
That is a case of a similar product being sold with the exact same model number. If it were similar to the Apple Vs Samsung case they would have sued over the fact that both cars have wheels of the same shape, doors that open, brakes that slow you down then bring you to a stop etc etc
Sueing for using "F150" for a car name, I can give Ford that. But sueing because a car is black with chrome accents and has "aerodynamic" (read: "rounded") corners and you drive it with a circular device (steering wheel) and a gear-shift.... I propose that all car manufacturers sue for injunctions against each other for obviously stealing each other's "look'n'feel" and failing to be "innovative." Perhaps when we're all riding in horse-and-buggies again, bureaucrats will wake up and realize that the world could be a better place without such petty wastes of (consumer) money.
(yes, it is us that eventually have to pay for all these lawyers)
... That Samsung could have been so stupid as not to check if Apple had patented "Thin rectangular thing that can be used as a several things including a computer!
I often mistake a Ford F150 for a Ferrari F150 with them looking so similar and all - in my next life I want to be a lawyer and make money of frivolous nonsense - I take that back - I don't want to be a lawyer.
I always thought that If I was going to get a tablet, it would be an ipad. The prices aren't that different (for a decent tablet) so might as well go with the masses and get guaranteed new software regularly.
But now, with Apple making such a big deal other this, I'm actually really intrigued to check out the Samsung. They make some pretty decent Blueray boxes (not so great Freesat boxes it seems, lets hope software updates come soon for those).
Considering practically every slab looks the same, why are Apple getting so worked up over this one? It must be pretty feckin decent to have them this worked up!
Some jurisdictions and probably most still require your guilt to be proved on the balance of probabilities, not the other way round, which is the way Apple would prefer things.
@AndyS It is about patents: design patents. It seems Apple are claiming rights to any device with rounded corners (like all my ancient phones and laptops). This is going nowhere because it will be kicked out but in the meantime its cheap publicity (no news its bad news) as publications like this report Apple's actions .
It looks like the sainted Jobs is actually worried by Samsung.
This can be nothing but good news for consumers and competition in the market.
BigBro, 'cause Apple has gone from rebel to dictator.
Why would he be worried?
Given their market capitalisation figures, huge stock pile of cash and good sales figures.
I think it's more a case of him being sick of imitators and I agree to a point. There's so very little design talent in the market and those who have it should be kicking the cloners in the teeth (via the courts) to get them to put more effort into producing their own look and feel.
Dieter Rams states himself there's only Apple and the company he works for who don't "devalue" the term "designer" and looking at the dull designs HTC and others chuck out I agree. Those who think their HTC phones look nice obviously have no taste (the popularity of Comic Sans has always proved that most people don't care).
It's just normal corporate behavior.
Once a company has clawed its way to the top of the heap, it's SOP to stomp on anyone else trying to claw their way up there by any means possible.
(I call myself a realist, others say I'm just a cynical bastard, I hold both points of view equally valid.)
Aside from the fact that the Samsung is a different shape from the iPad, and uses a different OS with a different interface, how different are you expecting this 'look and feel' to be?
The Samsung tablet is so different from the iPad in fact that Apple had to lie in their court documents, distorting the image of the Samsung to make it resemble the shape of the iPad and presenting it with the app drawer (i.e. a sub menu of the OS) open to give the false impression that Samsung had copied Apple's home screen.
This case comes down to the fact that Apple have decided they own the idea of a black rectangle of any given ratio. Out of interest, if you were going to design a tablet, what shape would you make it?
"Given their market capitalisation figures, huge stock pile of cash and good sales figures." - easy come and easy will be gone....they done that before...
"I think it's more a case of him being sick of imitators..." - like iApple never imitated nothing...right...all is original work....
"and looking at the dull designs HTC and others chuck out I agree" - you mean the one that any one can change? Oh yes, is not like iApple invented any design in the last 4 years for their iGreat devices...taking HTC would be to obvious...
My HTC phone does look nice, and it's lovely to hold as well. If you want a dull design then take a look at an iPhone! It's dull before you turn it on and it stays dull after you turn it on. It's just that dull grid of icons and no pretty widgets. Given time they'll copy...err, I mean innovate and patent...the Android homescreen concept.
Anyway, the reason he's worried is that huge pile of money and the market capitalisation figures. Investors buy the future, not the past, and Apple won't be generating such a lot of money if they allow competition in their markets. They have no technological edge and are no longer cool, so they're using the money pile to build a moat in the hope that investors will see value in that. It's either that or compete on price. Put it this way: Steve doesn't wear shades.
"I think it's more a case of him being sick of imitators and I agree to a point."
Pop quiz: who said "We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
Struggling? Some dude named Jobs, apparently...
"Once a company has clawed its way to the top of the heap, it's SOP to stomp on anyone else trying to claw their way up there by any means possible."
Yep, you're daft alright.
Said company spend many years and billions of dollars developing it's design and technology. Others then copy it. Company tries to protect its' hard work and IP.
What would you have them do instead?
"What would you have them do instead?"
Fuck off and die, since you ask. I don't care how many billions of dollars you threw at a product if the end result is "It's a desktop metaphor you work with your finger instead of a mouse". That's not interesting, it's not clever, and it's not an original idea.
How about owing up to all of the things they've copied over the years?
Enjoy your kool-aid.
My HTC phone looks frakkin awesome. Mostly because I've changed the default homescreen/launcher, and tweaked it to the way I want it to be. BECAUSE I CAN.
I'll hand it to Apple, they DID patent the whole one-button functionality thing. When I saw their single button mouse, ages ago, I completely wrote off the whole company as a joke. But now, i see it was just them recognizing that the average world citizen is a complete moron, and if you give him or her two or more buttons to push, they're invariably going to screw something up. Good on Apple for recognizing that people are idiots and enabling them to remain so. But for me? I'm not an idiot, so I don't need their handholding and oversimplifications.
Well. IMHO most newer Apple kit simply looks tacky - the kind of design where 50yrs later there will be not the least bit of doubt from what (semi)decade it came from. But that Probably means I just have no taste. Well,I also didn't have any taste ~95 when I refused to wear low-slung baggy-pants.
Back on topic: I got my HTC desire very much because its UI is not very much like the iPhone's. Maybe I'm just not hip enough, maybe I didn't drink enough kool-aid - but Apple's UIs have always driven me up the wall. Even more so than MSes. And that means something.
Sure, HTCs phones aren't able to compete with d&g jewellery-boxes on the "oh, shyiny"-factor, but they look simple and unobtrusive enough, and work pretty well.
And I don't have to hold 'em in any specific way to make a call.
Well. It's hard to admit, but I most likely don't have the taste to be a web-designer or work for an advertising company.
Oh - wait. No it isn't. I'm actually fucking glad that is so. While I-phone-wielders might be proud of drinking crappy^w high-priced, big-brand chianti instead of good beer, I mostly stick with the latter, because I have an Idea or two about good wine and know I can't afford to buy the good big-name wines and lack the time to track down the cheap, good stuff for the locales I frequent.
Oh, never mid, I'll get my coat. It's the white one with 12 black buttons, a couple of biros stuck on the lapels and the nice sprinkling of jus, thank you very much.
... this brings us back to the '2001' part of the story that was reported earlier today!
Sorry lads - not only did Kubrick and Clarke come up with the idea of tablet computing before you, they also came up with the blag rectangle that controls your actions at a genetic level through brain manipulation before you too!
And a lot of people (myself included) who look at the iphone and its lack of a slide out keyboard and they conclude that the Apple design sucks as well. There is nothing wrong with HTC's or Samsung's or Motorola's cell phone designs.. After all they are more advanced than Apple's!
"Apple has told the Dutch court it expects Samsung........."
Since when do companies tell courts what to do, it’s the other way around.
iJobs has head so far up is own arse he is in danger of disappearing altogether.
I mean, even if Jobs wants to tell that to the court, most lawyers are smart enough not to say something that is likely to perturb the judge and make him more adversarial to their case. I've never met a judge who is unperturbed by being told how he has to handle something before he has heard the case.
"Since when do companies tell courts what to do, it’s the other way around."
Since Apple officially had more free cash than the US government, I guess. Basically Apple are now the biggest bully in the playground, and they seem to have a major chip on their shoulder after being picked on by the bigger boys throughout the 80s and 90s.
Wozniac must be cringing with embarrassment nowadays when he sees what a monster his baby has become.
They're turning into right bullies over this one. They do make very shiny kit, and thoroughly well-designed, but Apple's control-freakery is becoming extremely unappealing.
Absolutely...and it can have a negative effect. I used to be a fan, now I will buy anything but. I know it's just me, and SJ doesn't give a toss, but even I have principles.
Samsung's responsibilty if a court order found for apple would be to not sell any Tabs.
How it does it would be entirely down to it's agreements and contracts with distributors and retailers. No doubt there is a very effective recall mechanism that can swing into action but is normally reserved for more serious issues of consumer protection than a Jobsian "paddy".
...you're not even trying to appear non-evil are you?
At least most supervillains in film and TV have *hidden* evil schemes.
Icon because with that top hat he looks a bit like a stereotypical baddie.
old Jobsey really worried about the Galaxy tab?
Could it be that his fruitiness actually considers this tablet to be a real competitor to the iPad?
They will have a rather good sales pitch:
"The tablet so good, Apple wanted it burried!"
if only to be able to stand outside an Apple store with something really cool looking running on it that iPads dont run*.
Such as normal websites.
*(Or a comedy sized price tag showing it to be a lot less)
Finding something that looks (and works) as well for a significantly lower price.
I'm not saying you can't but I had a look round at the weekend and for the price of an even 1/2 decent tab from any manufacturer I could have an iPad (yes, the basic 16Gig one), Now, I dont need a tablet of any flavour but I "want" one.
I have an iPhone, I know what to expect from IOS and I know it's limitations and I'm also very lazy so I dont want to be spending loads of time learning a new OS, etc (and then worrying if I'm on the latest OS version and if not will my tablet support the latest version or even if I can find the latest version for my particular tab!) and for what I need it to do the iPad (yes, the base model is fine for me) is perfect.
Horses for courses, if you want a cheap Tablet they can be found without a doubt but if you want something that approaches the iPad in size, functionality and, dare I say it "shiny-ness" then you will be hard pushed.
"Good luck Finding something that looks (and works) as well for a significantly lower price."
amazon is your friend here
"for the price of an even 1/2 decent tab from any manufacturer I could have an iPad"
funny, because on amazon I couldn't find a non ipad tablet for more than £400, or an ipad for less than £425.
Couldn't help it, love my iPad but love choice more and the G-Tab fills the gaps left behind by Apple. Not surprised they are running scared.
Could someone explain to me how a retailer would be liable for patent infringement on a product it sells?
I get that they could get into trouble if they were selling bootleg or counterfeit goods, but that's different to patent infringement, isn't it?
This isn't about patents, it's about the over-all design of the device. But in either case, I suspect retailers could be held responsible for selling an item over which there is an injunction, but doubt Apple would chase them.
"but doubt Apple would chase them."...
you are joking right?
if apple do manage to win this dummy spitting contest, any retailer that dares sell a infringing device will suffer the wrath if ijobs and his gang of merry (and rich) lawyers !!
I don't think that patents (or in this case "design" patents) actually stop you making something. What they do is make it an offence to supply it (for money, or giving it away).
If a shop sells something to someone that breaches a patent, then the shop is responsible. I think it is also the same as bootleg/counterfeit goods too; these are either rip-offs (design patent/copyright), or trademark infringments, or copyright infringments. However IANAL
While we all mock Apple and their monopoly on IP lawyers this is now too much. It is beginning to be purely about destroying the competition.
I wonder if Samsung are being quiet in order to prepare a stick big enough to knock Apple out for a very long time.
And there I was thinking that the whole point of a free market was self-optimization through competition.
I kind of like the whole iPhone/iPad thing but I have no intention of buying them from Apple so shutting down the competition is not going to get them my money. Is not like I actually _need_ these products so "do without" is a perfectly good option for me.
How about Apple suing Samsung for the details of customers who have already bought the GPad?
Samsung, like Apple has cohorts of lawyers, but individual consumers would much more easily be scared into submission on receiving an unpleasant letter from Apple.
That would appear to be the logical next step, given Apple's behaviour so far.
It's nice that Jobs believes he has the legal and moral obligation to tell others how to do their business. Wow does story point out the arrogance of Apple more than any other or what?
Can't wait for the fanbois to flame me now whoohoo! lol
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