oh, of course, they aren't irish, are they?
A mischievous hacktivist broke into three websites run by the Democratic Unionist Party on Wednesday night to replace the website of the staunchly unionist Ulster party with an Irish language version. Party leader Peter Robinson's welcome message to the site was translated into Irish and appended to include support of the " …
oh, of course, they aren't irish, are they?
They are and aren't. The problem is that the Republic has stolen the words "Ireland" and "Irish" to mean something completely different than the true meaning of the words. Irish from the island, but not in the republican sense.
The same goes for the "Irish language" (based on the Connaught dialect might I add) . Would probably cause less trouble if they just called it "Irish Gaelic". (or just gaelic as its essentially the same as Scots Gaelic, the latter of which is nearly as close to the old Gaelic dialect in Ulster).
"Irish Gaelic" translated in to English is "Irish Irish".
Properly the DUP and anyone else raised in that weird feck'd-up part of the world (such as myself) are Northern Irish. Okay there are those that wrap themselves in other, more sectarian words, but these are the equivalent a person born and bread in England choosing to be known as a Labourain or a Conservatarian rather than English.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but I understood "Ireland" to be the big island a bit West of Britain (not, not America...not that far West...), and "Irish" to mean any person or thing originating from there.
How exactly has the Republic stolen these words ? Seems to me it’s more a case that *some* Irish people refuse to accept that they live in Ireland and they are Irish, insisting instead that they are natives of the island that their ancestors left long ago.
Yes, your interpretation in the first paragraph is the correct one.
Your second paragraph, however, is misinformed. Unfortunately the Republic has hijacked the terms "Ireland" and "Irish" when discussing identity and causes never-ending confusion. The Republic of Ireland passports only say "Ireland" on them and are known to be "Irish passports" holders merely having an "Irish identity". The Republic has joined the UN and EU under the name "Ireland". In fact, the UK was the only country to object to the Republic entering the EU under this name - it is unfortunate that all other countries ignorantly let them have such an arrogant name.
erm "Gaelic" is an English expression and so is "Irish" so you can't "translate" something that is already in English to English!! What I was calling for was a clearer use of English to describe both Ireland and Irish Gaelic.
Ireland (the place) in Irish Gaelic is "Éire" and the demonym of that would be some derivative of "Na h'Éireann".
Irish Gaelic (the language) is natively just called "Gaeilge".
On that basis the citizens of Canada and the USA had better get themselves sorted out. They all live on the same big lump of land and they (mostly) all came from the same parts of Europe originally. How silly of them to pretend they're two different countries!
(Yes, I know that continental America is a LOT bigger than Ireland, but a simple matter of scale doesn't change the fundamental principle as far as I'm concerned.)
You are correct, Ireland is an island shared by 2 sovereign states, that of Eire and UK of GB and NI. Much in the same way N america is split up into various sovereign states (such as USA, Canada, Mexico etc)
There are movements within Eire (and NI) that want the whole of the Island Ireland to belong to Eire and not be part of UK of GB and NI. Hence republic rhetoric.
Even though I applaud the much improved situation in the north and wish for it to improve yet further, wasn't the problem originally that Ireland was invaded and so therefore the whole country was pretty much stolen, until some was won back?
I think calling the country "Ireland" and the people and language "irish" is just fine, and if you want to get picky and refer only to the Northern province (Ulster) then that can be made clearer by inserting "Northern" before those words. (Though Donegal is in the north too...)
I really don't want to offend anyone with this - sorry if I did - but some things are just fact (or seem to be). Feidhmeannach Síochána a bheith agaibh le.
" The same goes for the "Irish language" (based on the Connaught dialect might I add) . Would probably cause less trouble if they just called it "Irish Gaelic". (or just gaelic as its essentially the same as Scots Gaelic, the latter of which is nearly as close to the old Gaelic dialect in Ulster). "
Well that's an overstatement if ever I heard one.
Gaelic (aka Scottish Gaelic) and Irish are about as different as Spanish and Portuguese or Spanish and Italian.
Within both Gaelic and Irish there is a range of dialects, and yes, Ulster Irish is quite similar to Islay Gaelic, but there are some major fundamental differences that come into play when you hit the sea. At best you could call Islay Gaelic a transitional dialect -- not one thing or the other -- but most people agree that it's Gaelic, not Irish, and not merely on grounds of geography or politics, but in terms of grammar.
It's hardly arrogant when the Irish Government laid claim to the whole island of Ireland, only to relinquish this claim (in part) as part of the Good Friday Agreement. How verrry dare they claim the northern 6 counties which were partitioned from them in the early 20th Century.
The question over a persons nationality (by AC) is also just wrong. It'd be nothing like someone calling themselves a Labourian. I've never once heard of someone in the north claiming that they are DUP British or Sinn Fein Irish. It's got nothing to do with party politics, you either see yourself as Irish or British and some see themselves as Northern Irish. Fair play to them all, you are what you are!!
Stop stirring shit up.
Ireland can mean the actual island of Ireland (including the six counties north) or the actual country in a political sense, which is logically named after WHERE it IS.
How can we be hijacking what is logically our right?
Remember WHO came across and occupied us. Remember who they brought across as migrants to consolidate their power. And just look at the trouble that has caused?
Granted though this is in the past, but there are people still up there, on BOTH sides that want trouble. We have these descendants of these migrants who say they are British (NOT IRISH) and incensed locals who've had family in the area since prehistory who want these 'newcomers' out and go to exceedingly nasty lengths just like those same loyalists. Who's stirring each other up half the time I haven't a clue. Are you perhaps one of them trouble makers?
I suspect Great Britain today would wash its hands off those 6 counties if it could, but there are people there that unfortunately I acknowledge, whom err.. would make it very difficult for peace to exist should Britain leave. On BOTH sides no less.
Right now, I don't blame the Brits today one bit, to be honest, that's all in the past we should move on. I blame arseholes like you.
So just f@#@ offf, will you?
"The problem is that the Republic has stolen the words "Ireland" and "Irish" to mean something completely different than the true meaning of the words."
You can join the (hypothetical) Bretons whining about how the UK has stolen the word "British"...
"wasn't the problem originally that Ireland was invaded and so therefore the whole country was pretty much stolen, until some was won back?"
That's happened many times. Perhaps most memorably several thousand years ago when the invaders kicked the then-resident Scotii out, causing them to decamp to the top end of the big island to the east, now called after them. It wasn't until the early 17th century that those residents managed to win back the NE part of Ireland from the invaders' descendants.
Or maybe you're mistakenly thinking of events in the 12th century, when the dethroned King Dermot invited the Normans, who had fairly recently conquered England, to help him get rid of the usurper who nicked his throne? Not so much as invasion as a party invite where the guests overstayed their welcome. Just as well they didn't have facebook in those days, who knows who'd have shown up.
... meanwhile would mind paying your overdue loan at the bank please?
Although I have an intense dislike of the DUP and their ilk (and love to see their noses tweaked)
I also have no time for those who wish to inflict Irish language legislation upon the majority of people.
The insistence on the Irish language legislation is simply a political stick to lash out with rather than the claimed integral part of peoples lives. Before the accusation of bias I also have sever issues with the claimed Ulster-Scots which can best be described as a dialect for yokels and others with 6 toes (think The Wicker Man & Deliverance)
Those living in Gaeltacht are starting to discover the problems with using the language apparently beloved by poets.
Apart from that (little grump of mine) this hack has cheered me up today (convert the SF site to Scots-Irish and the prank would be complete).
anon because life is dangerous enough (and my dislike of both political viewpoints will no doubt be read a loathing of only one side)
I wouldn't use Ulster-Scots as a stick with which to beat the DUP end of things, they are so thick that when streets and places started to get labelled in Ulster-Scots they decried the use of Irish Gaelic.
Scots is an old language which is a mix of an older form of English, Gaelic, Welsh, Norse and French. Like Gaelic it has been victimised by the "Queen's English" speakers who are so arrogant they don't even realise that their version is as much a dialect as any
Scots speakers had their language beaten out of them at school.
Don't blame the language because of the wearer's of sashes of whateve colour
'a mix of an older form of English'
Nope. English and Scots derived from a common ancestor. Scots was also influenced by Norse (but so was English in the North East) and French - in fact all the continental trading partners we used because the road south was blocked.
Being Irish (Republic, not NI), I really don't get it. We had to learn Irish in school, though I can't name any people that can actually have a complete, coherent & unstilted conversation in it. Granted I grew up in Tipperary (no singing please) and then Dublin, maybe my opinion would different if I grew up in the Connaught (the West).
I would love to know what percentage of the people advocating the "Irish Language Act" have more Irish than just Dia dhuit, Dia is Muire duit & Conas ata tu?
If you want to speak it, speak it. Just don't expect everything to be printed up in 2 languages for the benefit of a tiny proportion of the population who can speak the first language anyway.
My favourite suggestion for the province was one from my sister: Take all the Semtex, line it along the border, and blow a bloody big canal between the Republic and the North.
Without even going to Ireland. I once had to interpret for one in Strasbourg. She was speaking in English, but every time she had to quote something in another language, like the name of a French organisation, for example, then instead of dropping back into English afterwards, she dropped back into Irish, so I had to wave at her and bang on the window of the booth because, although it was really nice listening to her babble on in Irish, sadly, I couldn't understand a word.
A Dub born and bred here.
You obviously didn't pay attention in school mate. My kids are fluent, but they go to gaeilscoil(s), and the wife speaks Irish being from Donegal.
Your sister is wrong by the way. Note I don't fully disagree with you.
Well, if you did that, what are you going to do when the Euro finally crashes and all the Irish from the republic come running up to the north?
"My favourite suggestion for the province was one from my sister: Take all the Semtex, line it along the border, and blow a bloody big canal between the Republic and the North."
Not from any part of Ireland myself but it's amazing how those in the Republic look on N.I. as if it's just a nasty problem on their doorstep and how the situation there has nothing whatsoever to do with them or the creation of their state.
Not from NI myself but it's pretty obvious from the speeches that come from that part of the world what the problem is.
Some people just like to randomly hate on other people, some people even like being violent. That's all that's gone on there. The stuff about being attached to one state or another is just a pretence, a border is just an opportunity to wave a passport and lie about what's in your luggage.
She sounds like a nice lass.
yep - many of Northern Ireland's problems are due to the continuation of the civil war in which the Republic decided to become the odd-ball of the British Isles. It is indeed an unbelievably common view in the Republic that they have absolutely no responsibility for much of it.
I'd be interested to know what you think the canal would achieve, the sea didn't stop all my Scottish ancestors settling in Derry.
"Being Irish (Republic, not NI)"........"My favourite suggestion for the province was one from my sister"
Good grief, the "province" of Ulster includes Donegal, Monaghan, and Cavan; three counties in your own country. Some simple geographical knowledge of the country you actually live in would come in handy you'd think!
Did actually mean to say the six counties - red face.
Is a good idea if nothing more than an exercise in patriotism but while they have succeeded with (modern) Hebrew in Israel, we certainly have not had comparable success.
There is probably a very good reason for that: a perfectly acceptable lingua franca already in existence that our esteemed neighbours from across the water have left us.
Or is it most of us just don't care, whereas the Israelis genuinely do about their country?
Looking at the country these days I reckon it's the latter.
Food for thought.
I liked her too until a moose bit her.
Oh some silly sectarian political party. Does anyone really care about them??
Sorry guys from where I'm sat the NI sectarian parties on both sides come across as fucking vile. They both seem to use the BNPs favourite strategy of picking a group of people and claiming they're responsible for everything that's shit. What I don't get is why this actually seems to win election in NI, must be a culture thing.
The Hector O'Hackatdawn handle used by yer man here is a play on words, based on Irish TV and radio presenter Hector Ó hEochagáin (pronounced Hock-A-Gawn) who presents programmes in both the English and Irish languages.
Paris because James Joyce finished the last few chapters of Ulysses whilst he was err... "in Paris".
That's an amusing story
I think thats the point, if the language act required all government services to be bilingual that would reserve a lot of government jobs for one half of the community.
Here in Canada, the government is officially bilingual. But since 'english' canadians typically have about as much french language ability as english people in the UK it means a lot of government jobs are effectively reserved for french canadians. Totally coincidentally this buys a lot of votes in Quebec.
It also leads to public farces such as federal workers to help new Chinese immigrants in Vancouver being required to speak French but not necessarily speak Chinese.
I wish people who vandalized websites always put this kind of creativity into it. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!
Speaking AS an Ulster Prod (by birth naturally, to call myself a prod now would imply I was some sort of godtard).......I would like to say....it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of hatefilled fascist fucktards!
Anonymous as I find locomotion to be facilitated by having knees.
can I just point out, that "Ulster Scots" is not actually any kind of a language as far as I can tell......it just means you speak Scot corrupted English really REALLY badly and pronounce everything like a spide!
Spide: NI version of Chav, but much MUCH worse......our buckfast fuelled little cretins have a cause and daddies who teach them how to make petrol bombs and hate.
can I just point out, that "English" is not actually any kind of a language as far as I can tell......it just means you speak French corrupted Dutch really REALLY badly and pronounce everything like a chav!
Good for the goose....
It always amuses me when someone incorrectly claims "we own this land because we were here first" (Ireland, "Palestine"/Israel, Zimbabwe, etc, etc), as history shows us that most countries have seen several waves of invasion or migration to by different peoples, often with dire consequences for the locals. In Irelands example, the Celtic Irish claim historical precedence, neatly forgetting that the Celts themselves are thought to have originated in Austria and expanded across Europe, conquering or displacing other peoples. In Ireland's case they only got there in the Iron Age and long after Mesolithic tribes had established hunter-gatherer and farming communities. Nobody seems to be thinking of the Mesolithic natives and their feelings. Those tribes are thought to have migrated to Ireland out of the Iberian peninsula, so I say make anyone on Ireland speak Spanish! Should keep them quiet for a while.
Though a called a Celtic country, it is Celtic by culture and not by DNA as there is no DNA evidence for a large scale immigration by a Celtic people. The DNA evidence does indeed point to the Iberian Peninsula as the place of origin of the original settlers, but to the Basques and not the Spanish.
Being a Northern Irish political party, the DUP has no obligation to publish as Gaelige, but still I gotta say - that is some funny shit! Bhí mé ag gáire os ard (LOL)!
Perhaps the Unionists (as Ulster Scots) should translate their website into Scots Gaelic.
Seems to me, Gaelic was forked about a thousand years ago, and Irish Republicans do not hold IP rights.
What a pity to see (if the BBC can be trusted) "Is mise Peadar Robinson agus tugaim tacaiocht don Acht na Gaelige", which includes an impossible construction (a definite article applied to a noun that's determined by a genitive), and, in the comments here, such manifestly English idioms badly translated as "TIOCFAIDH ÁR LÁ ".
If you're going to comment on languages or translate websites (even in jest), you'd better make sure your grammar doesn't stink.
Welcome to the Internet - even posting in their own native language most commentards fail badly at grammar ;)
obsures your message.
or to use an english idiom: Fog index.
Why use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice?
....i really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Diversity is important in our communities.
I live in a part of Scotland that was settled by the Britons from Northern France. "Scots Gaelic" as it is known was never spoken widely here, and certainly isn't spoken at all here now. In fact, without even having to take a poll I would bet there are no more than half a dozen people in my town of 38,000 that can fluently speak the language. There are certainly little more than 30,000 in a whole country of 5,500,000 that can use it fluently.
The dominant language in this corner of Scotland made up of the former kingdoms of Strathclyde and Northumbria was Cumbric, a language more closely related to Welsh and Cornish than Scots or Irish Gaelic. But our current el Presidente in Edinburgh (Dun Eideann) and his cohorts at Transport Scotland in Glasgow (Glaschu) seem to be on a mission to educate us by train. They have started giving all the stations and timetables gaelic translations, including some which have had to be completely invented as no gaelic place name existed. For example, the town of Lanark (from the Cumbric, "Lanerc") has had to be given the name Lannraig even though its English name is almost exactly derived from its original Cumbric.
I say, let these old languages die and dont waste time teaching children them.
Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2018