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back to article DVLA off-road system seriously off-message

The DVLA’s off-road notification system is a shambles: legally unenforceable and administrative chaos. Two recent court cases suggest that the DVLA has been acting unlawfully and does not have the powers it thinks it has when it comes to pushing motorists around. First up was a case heard in Clerkenwell District Court in …

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  1. frank ly
    WTF?

    Just a minute....

    "...on the grounds that he had failed to notify it when took his vehicle off the road (SORN)"

    Why should it matter if you take your vehicle off the road??

    If I take my vehicle off the road (e.g. park it up in my garage for months, for whatever reason), then what harm does that do to anyone if I don't formally tell them? The only situation in which you should need to inform the DVLA or 'prove' anything is if you are using the SORN procedures to claim refund of vehicle tax or exemption from it.

    Have I misunderstood the situation in this case, or is there an aspect that I've missed?

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    1. Anonymous John
      Reply Icon

      Re Just a minute.

      You don't need to do anything if you take a taxed car off the road. But when the tax runs out, you either have to re-tax or SORN it.

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    2. AndrueC Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      FAIL

      Oh dear.

      The problem isn't the act of taking your vehicle 'off road'. You can park your vehicle on Mars for all that DVLA cares.

      The problem is that once DVLA knows of the existence of a vehicle it expects it to be taxed until the day it ceases to exist. That is what SORN is for. It's the way you justify/explain/excuse not paying tax on a vehicle.

      Basically SORN exists so that the vehicle registration database has a specific status for every vehicle. Your vehicle is either 'taxed' or 'not taxed'. Prior to SORN all the database had was 'taxed' or 'unknown'.

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    3. Number6
      Reply Icon

      Rule Change

      They changed the rules some time ago because it was too easy for people with no road tax to just claim the vehicle was off-road. Now they can fine you for driving it untaxed or for not telling them that you don't intend to drive it, thus winning in all cases. Throw in a random selection of lost mail and the ensuing fines, and there's all that extra income. Until now...

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Agree with the last bit but...

        I think the point of SORN was to shift the legal burden onto owners to record vehicles that are abandoned.

        The point about there being now a new classification for vehicles is not really valid. Before they were either taxed or not. With the introduction of SORN, that is still the case. "Not taxed" is now split into "Not taxed, and they told us" and "Not taxed and they didn't tell us" which really doesn't tell you a great deal about the real status of the vehicle. The owner could still lie, and if they are driving the car without tax, then they likely don't care about the consequences anyway. They will still fill in the SORN declaration and continue to drive it.

        You can create as many laws and legal requirements as you like, but ultimately, only the law-abiding care. The criminals do not.

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      2. peter 45
        Reply Icon
        Grenade

        Heads they win........tails you get fined

        Too right. All the rules and all the fines are in their favour.

        - DVLA forget to send you a reminder.......not their fault

        - You forget to send them a form telling them that the car is STILL off-road......your fault and fines and payment for full tax for the period was not declared SORN.

        SORN is just another method of collecting payments from all those naughty people who are dodging paying annual car ownership tax (and not paying tax, is equivalent to stealing it in their eyes.).

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  2. Winkypop Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Yay!

    Reg readers: 1

    Incompetent Government Body: 0

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    1. Lionel Baden
      Reply Icon
      Unhappy

      im sorry

      But let me correct that for you

      Reg readers 1

      Incompetent Government Body: 10000000000

      Sad but True

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  3. johnB
    Big Brother

    Just another civil service outfit

    As usual with gov't dept's, things are organised for their benefit, not the customers.

    My late stepmother died & I was warned that I could either a) tax her vehicle, or b) SORN it. Both required her signature - a bit tricky.

    No third option - they clearly hadn't even thought of such an event happening, although it must be a relatively common thing to occur. Brainless, just brainless.

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    1. Colin Miller
      Reply Icon

      VC/5 transfer after death

      When someone dies, you are meant to fill out the V5/C to transfer the car to you. giving a copy of the death certificate. Then apply for a Tax disc/SORN. If the death occurs at the the time the tax disc is due, then I'm not sure what the correct procedure is, but you can now fill out the form online, and pretend that the deceased filled it out.

      For Americans,

      In the UK, all vehicles used on the public roads are required to have an annual tax disc. I think they are called "registration plate tags" in the US. If you are keeping the car off-road (on private land), then you need to fill out a Statuary Off-Road Notification form (it's free) when the tax disc expires, or you sell the disc back to the DVLA. The DVLA is the Driver and Vehicle Licensing agency which is the Quango that deals with vehicles and drivers.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        FAIL

        If it is due

        You fill out the V5/C, and tax it with the new keeper supliment, just as if you had just purchased the car, just as my mum did, and was told to do, last year when my dad died. Just phone and ask, or look on Direct.gov, rather than ranting like an ideot.

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        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Idiocy and Government Process

          "You fill out the V5/C, and tax it with the new keeper supliment, just as if you had just purchased the car"

          Yeah, that makes tonnes of sense. I am sure its the first thing most people would think of when someone has died. All I can say is well done to your mother for having the presence of mind to find that out.

          "Just phone and ask, or look on Direct.gov"

          From the OP's comment it seems they had spoken to someone at DVLA who warned them of the issues. When a relative of mine died before Christmas his daughter was given the same advice as the OP over the phone from DVLA, so this is a bit of a weak defence for the scumbag agency.

          "rather than ranting like an ideot"

          Ironic, really, dont you think?

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  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But......

    If the guy's a Reg reader and thus has access to the interwebs, why not just declare SORN online? or was he spoiling for a fight?

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    1. Rob
      Reply Icon
      Black Helicopters

      A good point but...

      ... we don't want to make life easier for these Gov Quango's, plus if you do it all by post at least you know they will still be earning their money, doing it online means they are making a saving and where that saving goes only the Oompa Loompa's know.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        RE: A good point but

        Indeed, dare to cross a Quango and you'd better lock your doors because the balifs are coming.

        Those who live their lives above board and on the grid are the easy targets for government Quangos and their taxes (sorry, fees and penalties).

        I bet it won't be long before most Quangos no longer accept cash for certain taxes (sorry sorry, fees). Oh wait a minute, most already don't.

        Where will all this lead us I wonder?

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  5. Iain 15
    FAIL

    Me too!

    That is very interesting. I remember I registered a change of owner and sent off the requisite paperwork. I expected an acknowledgment but none was forthcoming so I called up. They had received the paperwork and processed it but I was told that the DVLA do not send acknowledgments for these docs. Funny how the story changes...

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  6. JimC
    WTF?

    What on earth is the point

    of the damn SORN thing anyway? It seems like just a stealth tax. If its on the road and not taxed then that's all the cops need to fine the owner: the SORN is irrelevant. All I know is that its a frigging nuisance if your vehicle isn't a runner at tax renewal time: if its not running you can't MOT it, then you can't tax it, then you have to fill in the frigging sorn, then you have to un sorn it to tax it... It used to be a damn sight easier when you could just send the form off a few weeks later when you got the MOT...

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    1. Giles Jones Gold badge
      Reply Icon

      SORN

      It's to stop people skipping a month before retaxing their car.

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  7. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Jolly good!

    What some of these organisations do not realise is that while they may become a little bit bossy and overbearing as soon as they take the matter to court (or have it taken for them) most will soon realise that they do indeed operate outside of the law and in an unjust fashion.

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  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I got hit by this yesterday

    I just received a letter that was delivered to an old address 2 months ago, requesting I attend court to answer a charge, something along the lines of failure to notify change of keeper. The court date was a few days before receiving the letter, and so I obviously missed it. It's lucky I'm even getting mail at all for a year-old address.

    Of course I diligently sent the change of keeper notification in a timely manner (though through normal unsecured mail).

    It looks like I may have been hit with an automatic £1000 fine, due to no fault of my own.

    I'll certainly fight this.

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    1. BlueGreen
      Reply Icon

      always prove it

      > Of course I diligently sent the change of keeper notification in a timely manner (though through normal unsecured mail).

      I don't know anything about tax discs, sorn or whatnot, but I do know about bureaucracy and the first rule is, get proof that you discharged your obligation. Mostly this means getting proof of posting, but anything that shows you did your bit is vital.

      Prove it!

      * Prove It! *

      * PROVE IT! *

      Always prove it. All organisations cock up and will by default dump the blame on you. If they can't because you evidently did your bit then they'll quickly back down and get reasonable again - or else the courts will do it for them.

      It's just clunky rules in a dull but necessary game.

      Anyway, well done those two, and best of luck to anyone here planning on contesting an injustice. I've found courts to be pretty sane places.

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      1. Intractable Potsherd
        Reply Icon

        Proof of posting

        As I recall from my law degree days, there is a "proof of posting" rule, which basically says that there is a rebuttable presumption that, if you can prove you posted it you are covered from the time it was posted. I don't know how common the knowledge is, but you can get "Proof of Posting" forms at the Post Office - hand over the document with the appropriate postage, ask for proof of posting, and get a slip with the PO stamp on it. This is free (except for the time spent in going to the PO, but, hey, your custom might prevent it from being closed). There is no need to go to the expense of recorded delivery - which isn't worth the paper it is written on for these sort of forms, anyway, since they have no actual financial value.

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        1. Andrew Maddison 1
          Reply Icon
          Black Helicopters

          @Intractable Potsherd (re: Proof of Posting)

          Recorded Signed For and First or Second Class Post (as long as you have a proof of posting - ie a completed Certificate of Posting) are all insured to the value of 100 x the price of a first class stamp (currently 41p, so the insurance is £41).

          Forms such as the V5 do have a value as the cost of a replacement where the original has been lost is £25, and similar charges apply to replacement of lost Driving Licences.

          Proof documents such as passports are worth more, and are therefore worth the expense of sending via Special Delivery.

          As far as someone being sent back someone else's biometric passport, I don't know why they sent it to the DVLA in the first place - you can insert the passport number in the relevant section of the license application and the DVLA can electronically check the Passport database, all without the need to risk it in the postal system.

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          1. Intractable Potsherd
            Reply Icon
            Thumb Up

            Thanks, Andrew

            ... I didn't know about the Proof of Posting having insurance value as well. It shall go into my armouray of knowledge.

            Regarding passports - always think twice before letting them out of your sight. They are too valuable in too many ways to risk compromising them. I have walked out of Spanish hotels that insist on taking them and keeping them out of my sight.

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    2. Intractable Potsherd
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Up

      @AC

      That is interesting. Last year I acquired a second car which needed taxing (not unusual), so I went to the nearest Post Office with the appropriate documents, including the V5. Handed them all in, keeping the New Keeper Certificate. This car was stolen three months later, which was when I realised that I had not received the new V5. Lots of kerfuffle (probably at least partly correct, given that I was trying to get a registration document) ensued, during which time I got several different answers as to how to proceed. However (and this is where it is relevant to your point), at no point was it ever suggested that I was liable for not notifying them of a change of keeper (which I would have contested if they had). Were they covering up incompetence, or are there some rogue operatives in the DVLA who actually have some common sense, and realised that I could not have got the tax without the old V5?!

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  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Required Title

    What will happen: A lot of public face saving gesturing, maybe a new rule or two, and, uhm, nothing much really. Even if you'll get the supposedly transparant and independent bureaucracy to keep tabs on this rogue bureaucracy, it won't gain anyone much. Except the few extra people employed.

    What should happen: Fire the entire DVLA staff, blackball the brass, and build it up anew. This time pay attention to competent management and create its internal infrastructure to do what it should and safeguard integrity.

    But really, the DVLA isn't that rogue, just slightly moreso than the rest. And since the entire government is rotten to the core anyway, starting with the political upper crust but certainly not stopping there, fat chance anything will happen. You can't even vote the bad apples away, so that's all that's left. Carry on government.

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  10. asiaseen

    Presumably

    the DVLA will ignore the court decisions claiming that they never received notification.

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  11. Paul_Murphy

    'Lose support of the motorists'

    Yeah - it's not too late for that is it?

    Honestly - they make it so difficult to be honest, and so heavy-handed when things don't go their way it's surprising that people are even bothering to inform them at all.

    When looking at the protests and riots in Greece and other countries I wonder how long before it happens here.

    It's not as if the establishment seems to be trying to help matters is it?

    ttfn

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    1. Intractable Potsherd
      Reply Icon
      WTF?

      Who the hell ...

      ... downvoted Paul_Murphy's post?????? He states the truth, except he's perhaps a bit optimistic about the great British public getting off their arses to protest anything.

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    2. AndrueC Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Down

      Difficult?

      I get a reminder in the post. I visit their website. I give them my CC details. Two days later disc appears on doorstep.

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  12. David Neil
    FAIL

    Not entirely surprised

    I scrapped a car back in November 06, sent my side of the paperwork to the DVLA, thought that was the end of the matter.

    Turns out they claim never to have received and they think I'm liable for the tax since that point + penalties + i'm supposedly in the poo for not notifying a change of keeper.

    On the back of this I'll welcome the chance to go to court.

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  13. Richard Jukes

    About time

    The DVLA are nasty. Real nasty. If I do not know the previous SORN date lets say because the previous owner sorned it and I buy it off them, how can anyone know when to RE-SORN the car? No point arguing with the DVLA most the time.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Boffin

      Quite simple...

      SORN expires on a change of keeper. If you buy something SORNed, you need to re-SORN it immediately.

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  14. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Other government offices work the same

    I worked for the DWP for a number of years and this way of working sounds very familiar! The reliability of post was more than bad.. Its a mystery where it all went! And who suffered? guess..

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  15. Anton Ivanov
    Grenade

    The entire system is idiotic and terminally outdated and outright criminal at times

    I got stuck because of the volcanic idiocy on a trip 5-19th of April abroad with the earliest date given by the airline being 2nd of May. The tax for my vehicle was expiring on the 30th of April.

    So can I buy tax in advance for a specific period? Can I even buy it before the 15th of the month before it expires? Hell no, too difficult for the DVLA to add 2+2 and if it was possible than there would have been much less fines, right? After all it is much easier to blame everyone being a criminal and let them prove the opposite. More fines, more baylifs, more money, more racket. Why fix it is if it brings more revenue they are not entitled to, but which the consumer cannot really fight agains.

    So can I buy tax just with my vehicle reg number? Hell no, you got to supply an obscure number present only on the nastygrams they sent out (or on the vehicle documents which you never take with you abroad if you leave the vehicle in the UK). Same story - more money, more fines, more racket. Why fix it is if it brings more revenue they are not entitled to, but which the consumer cannot really fight against.

    Thanks god, I have a private driveway. If I did not, not putting the precious piece of paper on the windshield on the right date would have been yet another offence and yet another fine into DVLA's coffers. I have had to replace the disk on New year' s eve for friends on quite a few occasions and frankly this is another special artificially invented offence nowdays. All enforcement is with cameras and a database. What is the function of the disk besides creating a special artificial offence to collect more revenue which they should not be entitled to?

    The fact that they themselves like where they are and do not get out of there very often does not mean that the rest of the UK should follow the same approach. Some of us like to travel abroad and some actually have to do that on business. It is a reality that a lot of the UK population spends abroad months and weeks at time. They are our servant, not we theirs (yeah, I know that as per Lazarus Long civil servant == civil master). It is them who are supposed to adjust their systems to suit the population, not the population to adjust their travel and business plans to fit their whims and fantasies.

    We live in the 21st century. The system should be fully electronic - no paper, no discs, number plate only and it should be possible to buy it for an arbitrary term in advance and up to a year in advance (as the chancellor sees fit to change it as he sees fit asking for more is not realistic). The only reason I can see for this not being done is that this will make half of the paperpushers in Swansea unemployed overnight. Something for the new government to consider as an efficiency after the next election.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      FAIL

      Wrong

      "Can I even buy it before the 15th of the month before it expires? Hell no, too difficult for the DVLA to add 2+2 and if it was possible than there would have been much less fines, right?"

      You can do it two months befor. Fuckwit.

      Tax in advance

      You can renew your tax up to two calendar months in advance in person or by post at a Post Office® branch that deals with advance applications or a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) local office.

      Take or send:

      * Registration Certificate

      * completed V10 ‘Vehicle licence application’

      * insurance certificate or cover note – must be valid when the tax disc comes into force

      * valid MOT certificate - if the car or motorcycle is over three years old - must be valid when the tax disc comes into force

      * the payment for vehicle tax

      * a letter to explain why you’re taxing in advance if you’re making a postal application

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      1. Anton Ivanov
        Reply Icon
        Grenade

        Good, now show me a Post Office in Spain, Or Tadjikistan for that matter.

        So where exactly is the post office located in Paris, Barcelona, Athens?

        All it takes is to get stuck for more than a week somewhere for whatever reason and you are an automatic criminal.

        I see no reason why the f*** I am supposed to write a letter for tax in advance. I pay, they tax and that should be it. Further to this, unless this has changed you cannot renew for a month in advance 1-15 of the previous month. You cannot renew online. You cannot...Whatever...

        The fact that the DVLA staff does not like to get out very far out of their precious Swansea does not mean that the rest of us should commit acts of servitude to them just in order to be able to do our work or travel for fun for that matter.

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        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Thumb Down

          *headdesk*

          You said you can't tax for more than 15 days in advance. You can... Says it right there on the info taken from the Direct.gov websight. Perhaps you should tax, like, in advance of the last posible second? Maybe? Although then you wouldent be able to rant.

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        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Oh and another thing

          You don't get fined as soon as you are overdue. It seems you have a bit of a persicution complex.

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          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Absolutely

            I can testify to both these points, although I must admit to thinking you could only tax 1 month in advance. Anyway, to my shame (and hence AC), I paid tax on my car almost a month late a year or two ago. I went to the post office, asked for car tax from the start of the month (it was nearly the next month), she scanned the bar-code on my docs, I paid ONLY for the time I wanted tax for (so no fines / penalties etc) and that was that, end of the matter.

            Until the next year, when I had to pay more tax, but that's not the argument here.

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          2. Anton Ivanov
            Reply Icon

            Sure you do.

            If your car happens to be parked at Gatwick because of the volcanic clusterf*** and you have to traverse 200 miles and more than 40 cameras connected to the automatic number plate recognition you definitely do. In fact you do for the maximum amount or at least this is what the DVLA always tries in that case.

            Or you travel by other means, pay parking for X days until you source the disk, and then go back to pick up the car. Nice rounded total in excess of 200£ in parking fees and rail/bus tickets. Still less than the fine though.

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      2. peter 45
        Reply Icon

        Really?

        So how come the last time I knew I was not going to be in this country when tax was due, I was told that buying tax in advance of the month it was due was "impossible"?

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        1. Richard Vivash
          Reply Icon
          Stop

          Give the guy a break!

          I always renew my tax online, which means I would also have been caught the same way Anton was.

          I'm pretty sure that if you renew online you can only do so up to 2 weeks in advance (unless this has changed very recently, last time I tried to renew 3 weeks before it refused). This may be to do with keeping the Internet facing database of vehicles down to a manageable number and from a security perspective it's probably not a good idea to have the UK's entire vehicle database exposed to the Internet 24/7, 365 days a year. I know you can renew earlier by going to the Post Office, but if you're planning to renew online I think the two week rule still applies.

          So let's take Anton's case….

          I guess he was going to renew online (he doesn't explicitly state this, however as he mentions not being able to renew before the 15th I can only surmise he was told this by the renewal website, where else would he have got this date?). He was out of the country from the 5th of April until the 19th. This means it was not possible to renew online before he left the UK. However, he would be back in plenty of time to deal with this, so no problem… or so he thought… Then Iceland exploded… Was he really expected to foresee this?

          Now this is his problem. He can't renew the tax on his vehicle while he is not in the UK because he needs the ridiculously long number that is on his renewal form, something that he would not have to hand. It is likely that he only knows his registration number and as the DVLA offer no way to renew your tax with only the reg number, he's out of luck.

          OK, the tone of his post was a little hysterical, but give the guy a break. Let's face it, we've all felt like that after dealing with one Government agency or another. How hard can it be for the DVLA? They have the car registration number, the registered address, his personal details and his DOB. If all that matches up with their records then why can't they tax his vehicle? He's trying to GIVE THEM MONEY and fulfil his legal requirement, he's not asking them to send him cash. It really shouldn't be that hard.

          If you are caught driving without tax (which is likely these days with all the NPR cameras around) the police can, and do impound your car and issue points on your license. So when he arrives back at Gatwick, how does he get home? He's tried every avenue to remain within the law and has tried everything possible to give the DVLA his cash.

          OK, the volcanic ash situation was unusual, which is why he shouldn't be expected to predict and plan for that eventuality, but it really does show how rigid and unbending the DLVA are.

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  16. Dennis 6
    Pint

    The support of motorists???

    "We say that staying complaint should be made really easy and there should be tolerance of small mistakes. If the authorities lose sight of this they will also lose the support of motorists."

    I think that, in choosing whether they want the support of motorists, or as much money as they can possibly trouser, they have decided that the readies are more useful. Just to speak to them on the phone one has to dial a high-toll 0870 number, and the latest figure I saw was they made £8.7 million this alone. Good will?? Ha-ha.

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  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's getting quite a list then..

    IMHO they are also in blatant breach of the Data Protection Act by using personal information for other purposes as intended (selling it in an uncontrolled fashion).

    It's about time someone calls them to order.

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    1. Intractable Potsherd
      Reply Icon

      Calling them to order...

      ... isn't that simple, I'm afraid. Agencies like the DVLA have been very craftily engineered (another legacy of that deranged old bat Thatcher) to fall between the cracks so they are very effectively *outside the law*, and not amenable to any calls for change from the electorate. Technically, not even the Minister for Transport (in this case) can legally call them to heel without making legislation - they are created to be autonomous. This is an area that really needs sorting, but so few people realise the nature of the problem. Whenever you see the word "agency" at the end of a supposedly government organisation, this is the case (Child Support, Highways, etc).

      Also, no-one is going to win an election by promising to make government departments bigger!!

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  18. Squirrel
    FAIL

    /has idea

    Good on the citizens for fighting back but to prevent such arse ache... Do it over the internet...

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    1. Intractable Potsherd
      Reply Icon

      Sorry to disagree...

      ... but it is better to do it at a Post Office - they need the custom if we are not to lose more of them.

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  19. Daniel Feenberg

    huh

    would smeone like to explain what this is about to a North American reader? Is it something to do with preventing the spread of hoof-in-mouth?

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    1. Steve X
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Down

      What this is about

      The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency is responsible for making sure that all vehicles that are on the public road are taxed. Owners have three choices 1) Pay the annual tax, 2) Declare the vehicle as being destroyed, 3) Declare that the vehicle is stored off-road (might be the case for a car that is being restored, or where the owner is away for a long period and doesn't want to pay tax).

      The Statutary Off-Road Notice is the way that you deal with choice (3). If you don't send it in, and don't pay/renew the tax, you're assumed to be in default and the car can be seized and destroyed.

      As well as the owner being required to send in the notice, the owner is also legally required to verify that the DVLA has received it. The DVLA has no responsibility to confirm receipt.

      Fair hearing? Innocent until proven guilty? Fat chace with the current government. Remember it on Thursday...

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