Sigh....
We all know Wacky Jacqui will just shrug it off. She's unstoppable.
The Scottish Parliament has voted against the government's proposed ID cards, in a gesture of Pythonian futility. Members of the Scottish Parliament decided the cards would not deter crime, would not add to security and would do very little for civil liberties as well. MSP Fergus Ewing told the Parliament that the government …
If they don't listen, and NuLab MP standing for re-election on an 'We must have ID Cards' manifesto stands the risk of getting the old have-ho no matter how safe the seat.
And remember, El Gordo needs his Scottich chums to stand any hope of having an iota of a chance to still be PM after the votes are counted.
Mines the one with the Polling card in the pocket. Just wishing that the General Election was next week.
I still think we should devolve fully Scotland, as much as I love the Scotts it was Scottish MP's who voted for the ban on smoking in England and Wales, if it wasn't for them we'd still be able to smoke in a pub rather than have to go out in this bloody chilly weather and have a fag!
Jobs because I've love to remove Mac users from the UK too!
"MSP Fergus Ewing told the Parliament that the government could not be trusted to keep the data safe."
She never does respond directly to this, does she? Except occasionally a reference to some future rock-solid security that presumably will come into being via pixie dust or a unicorn's horn ground in the wishes of a baby angel.
>Members of the Scottish Parliament decided the cards would not deter crime, would not add to security and would do very little for civil liberties as well.
What is it about Scottish MPs? When they're at home, they seem to actually understand reality, as clearly demonstrated by this story. But Scottish MPs in Government in Whitehall are failing miserably to do a damn thing to stop the IDiots pushing ID cards (let alone erosion of my civil rights and trying to tax me to death). Is there some sort of moron field at the border?
It's a crying shame the Scottish Parliament can't block them. The day they become independent and then get the power to dump Whitehalls more moronic ideas, I'm there (assuming they want any middle-aged IT geeks)
The Scottish Parliament has the right to refuse to have the ID card used for anything within the purposes of the devolved administration. See http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060015_en_4#pb12-l1g43
Given the current make-up of the parliament no one is going to propose the use of the card for pretty much anything, so for Scots it will be a glorified passport and not much use at all.
Oh fer fuck sake. As a Scot, who doesn't mind the Scottish Parliament, hates the SNP and especially the smug bastard that is Alex Salmond, WE DID NOT CAUSE ENGLAND AND WALES TO GET A SMOKING BAN (yes I'm shouting!).
Count the number of Scottish MPs in Westminster, now count the number of English/Welsh who also voted, I think you'll find that Scottish MPs were far from the majority seeking a ban.
... this UK fear and panic concerning ID cards. I've lived and worked in countries were ID cards are a natural part of life (France, Sweden, Finland), something very useful and practical. But I suppose since it's "on the continent" it cannot be good enough for the Good Ole Island.
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Well at least you can say one thing for this: most of Jacqui stupid ideas are anti-men (like the sex with prostitute = rape if the prostitute later uses the 'I was forced into prostitution' defence when arrested, the watch doggie porn go to jail thing, the legalisation of murder of men by woman if they claim long time provocation etc. etc.).
She mostly targets 'men' and claims to represent the 'most vulnerable' even when she not.
At least this is a big f*** you to woman aswell.
If will be an effective veto if no government body in Scotland takes part and requires them, or even refuses them as sole evidence of identity. Also the enforcement aspects of chasing people down, checking them etc can simply be underfunded to the point of being irrelevant.
But remember folks, its not the card, its the database and legislation to force us to use it. Anyone who will let you off having a card but not the registration into a massive single authentication database is still a big brother proxy.
Has always suggested it would say no to ID cards and the SNP will certainly back that stance.
There has always been a clear public feeling that they simply would not be tolerated up here and that is now being made clear in a polite way.
If the government presses ahead then the polite bit will disappear and the gloves will be off.
Poll tax riots? Nothing compared to what is in store with the ID issue.
If Jacqui says that children can have the ID cards voluntarily, and the parents don't want their kids to have the card, and the kids are legally underage to accept a contract... i.e. their parents have to accept for them.
Does Jacqui Smith overrule the parent and side with the child, i.e. the child gets the id card, the parents wishes are ignored?
Now suppose that the parent confiscates the childs card. Is the parent then committing a crime? Will she create a crime that can be used against the parent?
It was the UK parliament that gave the Scots a get out, see the link above, in the actual ID card act of the UK parliament. So say for example, Westminster decides that in order to get a student loan you have to have an id card, well for Scotland student support is devolved, so it is up to the Scottish parliament whether to use it or not. But if something that isn't devolved, say immigration requires an id card, then all the Holyrood parliament has the power to do is say 'this is an overpriced pile of poo' as it did today but it makes no difference.
It's not so much that people are "prone to fear and panic" concerning ID cards, more that they have a thoroughgoing dislike of them.
ID cards symbolise and are part of a growing totalitarianism that is an anathema to some and causes disquiet in many. Not everyone buys into the "nothing to hide ..." argument.
If you really don't understand why so many are opposed, and want to know why rather than just to troll, you might want to check out the history of concepts such as habeus corpus and equality before the law; and to ask a few parents if they want their children to be on a national DNA database and for their school and medical records to be open to inspection by all manner of bureaucrats...
It's fairly clear that the government can't be trusted and ID cards would give them more power.
"I'd have thought the Scots would have loved to force us English to carry ID cards when in Scotland."
Why?
I'm partnered to an English person. Before that -- I was also partnered to an English person. We live in Scotland. Better all round standard of living. Jealous much?
I can quite see why you are being AA -- you're obviously a complete and utter knob. Try logic.
I still maintain the English education system is substandard ...
Thank f*ck for that.
Im a Scot and as a Scot on behalf of all Scots, I laugh in Jaki's face. HAHAHA.
Just out of curiosity, the 5bn needed to do this..... since we have said no, does that mean it now comes entirely from England / Wales taxes / public funds?
If were not going to have them, were sure as hell not paying for them......
On another note, whatever commentard blamed us for the English smoking ban.......
actually I'm quite happy to take the blame for that, its a damn good move, I was tired of being slowly killed by other ignorant b*stards' second hand smoke at the pub, and now I dont have to worry about it while visiting the penninsula either :P
If nobody wants ID cards...... move to scotland. If England ends up footing the bill for them, and everyone moves out, there wont be any moolah for Jacki to burn.
Of course, that doesnt mean we can't demand to see ID when Jacki turns up at the border to find out where all those people who "keep coming up to her" asking for ID cards have gone.
Warning....way off topic!
Much as I appreciate the humour...(actually it would be visas you'd require :) It's a dangerous route, and I for one am not about to vote for any party that would see Scotland annexed from the rest of the UK...United we stand and all that...I certainly agree that Scotland should be able to make more of it's own rules to accomodate any cultural or demographic differences with the rest of the UK, and we should possibly see more of the cash from the North Sea coming here before it's too late, but let's face it...it ain't going to happen any time soon. Scotland has one of the poorest health records in Europe, has slums in it's major cities and still the Scottish "Government" can't seem to direct any money that it does have into these areas. Alex Salmond has arsed it up for us in so many ways (don't get me started on how he's fucked up the education system for teachers...and no, I'm not a teacher), he's gone for the point scoring opportunities and is clutching on to a notion of Scottish Independance that probably the majority of Scotland isn't actually that bothered about getting.
"for Scots it will be a glorified passport and not much use at all."
And that's different to what it'll be in the rest of the UK how, exactly?
If/when ID cards are introduced, the only people carrying them will be people who already have a legit passport or driving licence. The crims/terrorists/soap-dodgers will be the ones who'll evade the system...
"I'd have thought the Scots would have loved to force us English to carry ID cards when in Scotland."
Yes, but since most Scots (indeed most people around the world, in any nationality), aren't actually anything like their cultural stereotypes (which were formed many years ago), then you would be wrong.
Of course, you probably think that everyone in Scotland talks the same and that we don't have different regions like England does.
At least that's what the news seems to think ("and now for London, the south east, the north west, the north east, and now it's time for Scotland")
It's not the card that most people object to, it's the monstrous Database that is behind it.
The amount of information that will be stored (for quite a long period of time) is frightening and nothing like it exists anywhere else, regardless of whether that country has ID cards or not.
but it means a hell of a lot to the Scottish people.
I seem to remember a Hollywood butchery of a famous time in the past where the English tried to encroach on the civil liberties of the Scottish... As far as I can recall, I don't think that ended well for us.
Good on you, Scotts.
Nice to see Labour north of the border standing up for what their party believes in.
Oh, hang on...
@Math Campbell - An SNP activist falling for the "Oil money will make it all ok" line, while not even mentioning the Barnet Formula, shome mishtake shurely? (There is sod all North Sea oil left, so be carefull what you wish for.)
>>... this UK fear and panic concerning ID cards. I've lived and worked in countries were ID cards are a natural part of life (France, Sweden, Finland), something very useful and practical. But I suppose since it's "on the continent" it cannot be good enough for the Good Ole Island.<<
You've completely missed the point. It's nothing to do with the idea being 'on the continent'.
It's not the card per se. It's the massive data collection engine behind it. The legislation compells you to give swathes of information to the government. The legislation also allows them to sell parts of this information to private companies.
Add to that the fact that this government is completely incompetent when it comes to protecting this personal data.
And then there are all the lies the government have told about them. 'they'll protect us from terrorism, they'll reduce identity theft, they'll stop the nasty immigrant freeloaders from using services they're not entitled to.' None of these have been proven.
I could go on, but i would just get more angry.
The real point, which annoys many of us in England, is that when it comes to things that affect only Scotland generally only Scottish MPs (MPs represent Scottish Constituencies) get to vote on it, whereas when it comes to things that affect only England Scottish MPs also get to vote on it.
Often the Scottish MPs don't even have the decency to abstain.
One of the almost instinctive resistances UK and UK-origin (Canadians, Australians etc) people have to carrying ID and being expected to be accountable to any police officer or official to display it is because our laws are based ont he idea that we are free to carry out the activities of our life. We are not accountable to anyone and not beholden to anyone, save where we collectively, via our representatives in Parliament, have voluntarily agreed to restrict our actions via laws, for the benefit of all. As long as we act within the bounds of these laws, we can do what we like as we like and are answerable to nobody.
ID cards are part of a different mentality. It's not necessarily a worse one, in the same way that European (Code Napoleon) law and justice is not at all inferior to UK-style law and justice. But it strikes me that there is a presumption of a State entity in Europe that is not here (yet) in the UK. Here, nobody has the right to demand that I identify myself. I can still say 'f*ck off' to those that seek to impede me, even police officers, even Government officials. I cherish that freedom.
If it is going to cost £5bn for ID cards; then the First minister will be asking for the barnett formula percentage of that figure (about 445m) to use on other things that actually matter to Scots. There is a massive backlash against New Labour here in Scotland and a vast move to scottish nationalism - even though the press here seem to be specialists in re-printing labour propaganda...
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> The real point, which annoys many of us in England, is that when it comes to things that affect only Scotland generally only Scottish MPs (MPs represent Scottish Constituencies) get to vote on it, whereas when it comes to things that affect only England Scottish MPs also get to vote on it.
That's because you have the UK Parliament in London, not the English Parliament, but the Scottish Government has already been established. I see no problem. Scotland is (well, for the time being) part of the UK, and its MPs participate and vote in the UK Parliament. If you don't have an English Parliament, and have to use the UK Parliament as a proxy to determine your home affairs, whose fault is that?
Remember that the Scottish Act of Union (1707) was signed some distance from the Scottish Parliament of the day, because an angry mob was trying to burn it down to stop it being enacted. Daniel Defoe, at the time the Chancellor of the English Exchequer, made records of the payments made (in gold) to each Scottish landowner to buy their vote - you had to be a landowner to vote in those days. So now that Scotland has nearly righted that wrong, why not take the opportunity to regain control of your country's affairs in the same way...? :-)
ID cards are not for security. Its so that you can be identified when you may have committed a crime of the new world order (e.g. sniffing in a public place).
Toning it down a bit in more realistic language, this whole ID card business is not the government's idea - this is a fresh bullshit from the EU, that wonderful unelected organisation.
But its still nothing to do with security. They just want to be able to identify anyone anywhere at any time.
Pass the copy of 1984, please.
-- Richard
If only "his holiness" G. Brown Esq takes note. He wont of course because anything which he utters is "Holy Writ" although he bears no semblance to the Pope. This has been the case ever since the utterances of "His Holiness, Flash Harry" in the 1960/70s. Just a great pity he did not rule himself out complete with his Alzheimers earlier, and many of his little helpers with him. We might have been spared some of the excesses recently brought out into light by Der Fuhrer.