18 posts • joined 4 Sep 2007
Re: Congratulations India.
Yes India needs toilets more than a space program. It also needs toilets more than cellphone service or warplanes. Why don't you all ask Vodafone to quit India ? Or ask BAE not to sell weaponry to India ?
Oh wait, that just won't do. Whatever we do is ok as long as it lines your pocket. The trouble starts when we make you look inadequate. That's when the faux morality and affected concern for the poor comes out. Move along now. Whiny ex-colonials are boring.
Re: Do you get what you pay for?
The MAVEN payload is about 50kgs. Mangalyaan's payload is about 16-18kgs. Yes, MOM is more lightweight, but it carries a decent payload, and performed a very elaborate process of getting there, using the Oberth effect to generate enough velocity to get into Mars transfer orbit (despite a couple of motor firing glitches) and subsequently make a very precise Mars orbit insertion on first attempt. Usually the second step doomed many Mars missions.
It's jealousy and crab mentality on display. When someone accomplishes something, others pile on pulling them down.
Re: oh well
That money goes straight under the reparations header in our central accounts.
Re: 1st time out with a significant science payload is *very* impressive.
We didn't really get a chance to learn much more than that many of them failed many times. The ISRO was under international sanctions until 3 years ago, which meant zero collaboration. They did this all by themselves.
Since the PSLV wasn't capable of lofting the payload with as much force as the MAVEN was by its launcher, they used the Oberth effect to generate the necessary momentum. There was not much margin for error - they needed to calculate the necessary fuel to do the Oberth rings, get catapulted to transfer orbit, and then have enough fuel to capture Mars orbit.
Despite a couple of early glitches, they still arrived in Mars orbit with twice the fuel originally calculated, which means the mission will be much longer than planned.
Kabonn... Karbonn... make up your mind which one to use. One of them is right, the other is wrong. If you get it wrong everywhere, it looks like you don't know. When you use both the right and wrong spellings, it looks like you're both clueless and lazy, which is worse.
Re: Well done India
Patent falsehood. India - effectively the entire expanse of the current state - has been a single political entity several times before the British, the first time being ~2000 years before Chaucer.
Britain itself did not exist until the 18th century, and in fact, had been fighting over what constituted the UK until well into the 20th century, until the Irish split. You guys didn't unite anything - you weren't even a fixed entity yourself. Even Italy and Germany did not exist until the late 19th century.
The concept of a nation state is a very recent one, the very idea of which dates to the Peace of Munster in the mid 17th century. It is Europe that has always seen constant flux
Historically, India has always been treated a distinct civilization that has been ruled by a sequence of dynasties with records dating back more than 2500 years. The Maurya Dynasty, which preceded the first Chinese Qin dynasty, or for that matter, Alexander 'the Great', encompassed a territory comparable to the greatest expanse of British India.
Re: Well done India
The arrangement seems to be working out quite well. The UK sends India money, but has no say in how it is used, ever since 1947. India effectively treats it as reparations for colonial plunder, and proceeds to use it however it decides is best - including sending up satellites, moon and Mars probes. The UK whines, and then sends even more money.
As Borat would say, Great Success!
This is British local poltiics. The ISRO has been around since the late 1960s. The INCOSPAR existed before that. It sounds like Brits suddenly woke up and went 'ZOMG! We've been sending money there for decades and they've been launching rockets!'
Here's the reality. Britain has no control over what India does with its money. That's been true since 1947. You can stop the peanuts you send as aid if you want, but you've shown no ability to get your political process together to do so. While you continue to send the money over, we'll continue to treat it as reparations for colonial plunder and use it as our own interests dictate.
On my part, the pleasure of being able to peruse the amount of angst in the Brit press, alone is well worth the money spent on this project.
Let's talk relative hypocrisies then.
The US was sending white men to space while a few hundred miles away, it was lynching black men at the same time.
The Russians were sending men to space while the expended rocket stages probably landed on a few Siberian Gulag corpses.
The UK went about 'fighting for freedom' in WW2 while it starved a few million Indians in Bengal in the process, and simultaneous beat up Hitler for killing a few million more.
I'm surprised that a simple orbit raising maneuver glitch warrants an article of its own here. Why the crab mentality ? The amount of self righteous indignation of the "how dare they accept our money and spend it on rockets ??" variety, combined with the desire to see us fail is both laughable and sad.
Another important issue missed by those asking why the $75 million couldn't be spent elsewhere is this: the ISRO is among the most efficient government organizations, as far as high profile results to revenues is concerned.
They don't just serve to inspire young Indians to take up science and technology; they serve as a benchmark for other public entities on how to efficiently derive results. For example, public health programs remain patchy - while we have successfully eradicated polio from India, there are several others where we fall short, e.g. TB.
Far from diminishing the ISRO's accomplishments - amplified by the budget they do it on - I would treat them as a reference to how other entities ought to model their own efforts to generate results. The problem here isn't money - it's much more an issue with the inability to execute efficiently. Having a successful governmental entity with a record of doing so is something to support, not oppose.
Re: Harley Davidson
Fancy that. When Boeing sells airplanes around the world it's capitalism and free enterprise at work. When an Indian tech co provides services to a US company, it's a negative. Nice double standard there, for all you outsourcing baiters.
Cushy consulting gigs masquerading as 'aid'
LOL! From the left-leaning poverty-loving Guardian no less. Not even a business newspaper but a poverty porn tabloid.
While you're talking cheques, send us a cheque for all the millions killed in famines, and for all the textile industries destroyed in favour of imposing export only of raw materials, so that the mills of Manchester could monopolize production, for a start. We'll bring up more if you're really interested.
In any case, we don't owe you a penny for the railways, which were built with Indian labour. Unless you can prove those labourers were paid as much as a British one might have been, you'll face all kinds of trouble getting paid, you know.
I can just hear them in the BOM/DEL-LHR BA J class seats - "Yeah I'm just getting back home after a consultancy trip to teach those Hindoos how to use toilet paper. It's all paid for by our government. Thanks to BA raising ticket prices at the last moment and raising our overhead even more, we could only afford 50 rolls of TP, so the original target of 500 asses had to be scaled down a little."
More on British 'aid'
Cut in DFID aid not a concern for India
"Indian activists say access to DFID funds is contingent on hiring consultants, mostly British. “When they (DFID) give money they send their own consultants. The way they handle it, it would be better if they didn’t give anything,” said Harsh Jaitley who heads VANI, a network of 2000 NGOs.
Echoing Jaitley’s views Anil Chaudhury, activist and founder of NGO Peace and Action Centre (PEACE), said agreements signed by DFID (and other agencies) have inbuilt clauses that ensure that a chunk of the money was paid to consultancies — a large proportion of these bodies are run by expatriates to ensure that the money flows back into the British economy.
As much as 60 per cent of the grant could often go towards paying the consultants hired by DFID to audit and monitor the programmes. Leakages take care of the rest, said an activist who didn’t want to be named.
Amitabh Behar, co-convenor of the National Social Watch Coalition said none of the ongoing programmes in India that are funded by DFID would be affected if British development aid were to be cut because the Indian government is capable of filling up the gap.
He said a cut back on DFID aid could be the best thing to happen to the development sector. What DFID should fund is not the Indian government but institutions that ensure governance, monitoring and auditing of development funds.
But many activists objected precisely to this: large monitoring mechanisms. These interventions, they say, are nothing but the means to get a handle on policy making and to buy clout in the government. “Their role is to influence policies to the advantage of British trade interests.”
Grass-roots organisations are least conerned about a possible withdrawal of British aid. Abhay Singh of Dudhi Vikas Samiti in Sonbhadra said NGOs like his had never received anything from big donors who fund the government directly. The government selects a handful of big NGOs who then provide smaller ones some money on and off to do their work."
No doubt when Cameron visits later this month with his massive retinue of hanger ons, he's going to try and wrangle some way for the 'aid' to continue, so as to provide a cushy mechanism for British consultants fly back and forth in J/F-class while patting themselves on the back.
British 'aid' is a British decision to provide, so as to further British commercial and trade interests. You should go tell your own government if you don't like it, not come bitching at us. The World Bank gives us loans, which we repay in full. Don't believe it ? Go ask them.
These subs will be built in India. It will broaden our own military industrial complex, increasing economic activity, employing people, and therefore contributing to our economy. No different from BAE Systems Marine in UK.
By the way, India has nuclear subs too - the first SSBN is undergoing sea trials now. Google 'Arihant class submarine'.
What's up with the generalisations ?
What's with armchair sociologists berating 'Indian culture' or 'Indian <anything>' ? So a corporate scandal occured, hardly a unique event in any nation. Big deal.
Presumably you blokes were out in force excoriating Jews in general when the Madoff episode occured, to give one example ?
Economic development entails developing high technology
Don't people get it ? India isn't going to bring broad prosperity to the masses by making cheap T shirts. It needs to develop a domestic high technology (including aerospace) base, develop and cheaply launch satellites that beam education material, weather and hydrological data to its remote villages. It's laughable that westerners, who owe their wealth to their industrial and technological development turn Luddite when it comes to the developing world.
As far as three stage rockets go, the PSLV and GSLV heavy lifters (which can respectively haul 1ton and 2.5 ton payloads to GTO) have been launched well over a dozen times now. This is their third launch this year, and there will be two more - the next being a Israeli spy sat later this month, and in October an oceanographic and meteorological analysis sat meant to augment the ability to study and forecast rainfall patterns - which matters when a significant part of the agricultural land is rainfed. Two of the five launches this year are of foreign military/commercial payloads.
I don't see why this is particularly important news at all. The ISRO has been launching these rockets for over a decade now, and have lofted German, Italian, Belgian and Korean satellites over the years.
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