558 posts • joined 14 Jul 2007
Re: Linux desktop
I'll just remind Mr Orlowski and the poster above about Enterprise Linux 6 (RHEL/Oracle Linux/CentOS/Scientific Linux/Springdale Linux) which has application updates until 2017 and security updates until 2020. Gnome 2.30, a range of kernels including i686-PAE and 64 bit. Very very solid.
Then I'll get my coat and leave this forum to the Windows people
Have a look at ubuntustudio one day.
Lighter XFCE4 than Xubuntu and more sound / graphics applications than you can shake a stick at all installed and set up.
Back to my 'interesting' experience with PC-BSD 10 now (also with XFCE4). Well, it is... different
Re: Completely missing the point
Personally, I'd rather like Big Tin Can on our computers at work. At present, I have to pull various types of information from a motley collection of sources including email; documents as attachments to emails; sharepoint documents; the output of various types of 'business application' that generate reports off databases - including Web pages, applications launched from Web pages but which have Windows specific clients, and bespoke programs.
Corralling that lot into one secure app that I could use anywhere and get the basic work done would be ace...
Re: History says otherwise
"He's such a fun little fella. It would be like having a classically trained French mime for President."
Upvoted for that image alone, not the rest of the argument.
Growing like Topsy
"As for the NSA, he said that the agency showed that if you gave an organization unlimited budgets and no oversight the results were always fantastic. The NSA had built up an incredibly powerful and sophisticated organization that could be completely pwned by a 29-year old with a thumb drive."
I liked that bit.
Of course, we specialise in giving covert organisations effectively unlimited budgets with little oversight in the UK, but they seem better at not getting pwned.
The tramp: you always get a whole seat on the bus if you don't wash
Re: Amazing what a bit of competition can do
"Everybody knows that xfce is the only decent fully fledged desktop in that list that does not bloat......"
Can't for the life of my see why anyone needs anything more than jwm myself. Does windows doesn't it?
Re: In my job...
"I often work in foreign countries with a large transient team who need to communicate cheaply."
Was thinking all sorts until I read the rest of the post...
Re: Online Cultrure
As a skunkworks project, why not try one of the Enterprise Linux distributions? E.G. CentOS, or Scientific Linux? EL6 has application updates to 2017ish and security updates to 2020. Depending on the graphics card you need to drive your multiple screens, there will be some research to do. Depending on the content of your workflows, it may take some time to locate alternative applications in the Linux world. Noone is going to move your cheese however.
Coding' is such a generic thing, and never should have been identified as a goal.
@ Vincent Manis
Nailed it here. There are end user 'programs' with which I would include that spreadsheet that the geezer in the corner with the two monitors uses to run everyday things. Bit of a mess, but it works and if you put comments on it and handed it to a professional programmer they might be able to use it as a spec to build something decent.
Then there are the 'use once and mangle' scripts I write* in R and pyxplot to do stuff.
Then there are PD patches / Processing sketches used to make art (or noise).
Finally, there is a considered process for embodying carefully analysed business logic in polished computer programs running with efficient UIs. Those make money either by saving time or by being sold.
Methinks the children need to start with the fun stuff.
(*)OK copy/paste and munge. But they work. And run under user rights on a laptop. Nowt mission critical.
off the shelf parts?
"Amstrad just took off the shelf parts and threw them together."
i.e. they had an idea for a product, thought about the market, and then used readily available, well understood technology to deliver the package, taking care to ensure that there would actually be software to buy - I loved that detail about using batteries to keep the ROM images operative instead of burning EPROMS. And, according to the article, they did have a few production problems on the way which were overcome.
Waiting for the green screen PCW article. Monster machine that, I produced loads of stuff on it.
Re: Schol Reform
"I'd much rather see them teach life skills in schools, things like how to write a cheque / pay bills. How to re-write a plug, take meter readings or even some basic electronics like fitting a light switch etc."
Should parents perhaps be doing that as part of bringing up their children?
Look at the famous international comparisons that 'call me Dave' is always pointing to. Tally the school day length with outcomes. Reaslise that we need less schooling, not more, but that we do need more parenting.
Re: Kids who can think ...
@ clod computing is big
"...you could "teach them to code" simple games and interactive web thingys for the olds to feel proud of with http://scratch.mit.edu/"
Environments like Scratch can also be used to teach Maths through fun things as well as the activity of making a computer do things. I sometimes think we've forgotten the fun bit amid the target driven content driven machine we have in education in the UK right now.
Please remember this is all about children in school. Any attempt to 'make it real' by analysing some idiotically simplified business scenario and using a simplified system to program a solution will get us back to the ICT disaster.
Much better I think to develop problem solving skills, debugging skills and checking skills ('does this really do what I think it does?'). The minority who want to do more work with computers when they leave school will have some skills and will find out about the messy and political reality in most businesses when they get there.
Re: He is indeed a massive arse.
@ Voland's right hand
I say it along the lines of "text in reference books has been fact checked and edited by a large number of people who have studied the topic. Some random Web page that Google found may have been written by one person somewhere and had no review at all. You can get an idea about the page from the quality of the presentation and the writing, but making something look shiny and slick is actually quite easy."
The teenagers I teach cotton on to that straight away.
Flappy birds note: Class genuinely surprised that Dong Nguyen 1) has a twitter feed 2) replies to tweets. They have sussed that someone real actually sits down at a computer and produces games. Big discussion about how much the in-game ads might make and the living costs in Hanoi. The next stage of my Master Plan is to get Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/) running on the IW and get students to build some function machines that make patterns.
Re: The other way around?
Yes, I was thinking of a couple of boxes, Windows games machine and session client upstairs and Linux big box in the basement as OP likes his SSH and remote access.
"Well I tried to upgrade from CENTOS 5 to 6, and I couldnt - clean install required!"
Well of course you could not, that is in the documentation, and it is a very well known feature of how Red Hat chooses to manage Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
CentOS, Scientific Linux, Springdale Linux and Oracle Linux are clones of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. They will, of course, follow the same approach.
If you want to be able to upgrade from one major release to another, perhaps you should consider Debian?
Now, are you related to The Vogon at all?
"And Linux is a mess. You want to install some software? You just have to recompile the kernel."
What kind of software are you trying to install? Been using GNU/Linux since around 2007 or so and never had to do that. Just written a 200 page course guide on LibreOffice, 500+ objects, 100+ drawings. Agreed screen redraw and scrolling is a tad slower than MS Office but still useable on a Duo Core 2 laptop with 2Gb RAM.
PS: Torvalds might agree about the state of the kernel. Bit of a mudball, but then it does seem to work and run a fair chunk of the interwebs.
Very hazy memories of batch processing at University 40 years ago. A Fortran loop that printed 100 blank sheets of line print paper then the formatted output. Very handy for scrap paper. Loved the alternate green and white stripes and the size. I still use A3, Sharpies and a large drawing board for thinking. Punched cards came in handy for revision notes.
Strangely satisfying that a direct descendant of the language is still around and doing important numerical work (what it was developed for).
File manager with column view
Anyone know what the file manager is? I quite liked the Miller columns when I used OS X. That, Preview (Tiger style) and Tinderbox (Eastgate) are what I miss from Mac OS.
End user alert: I'm mildly confused...
"So they had a load of pages with links to non-existent sites. Not non-existent because they'd recently gone off line but - never existed."
An API is supposed to return something when you access it.
So why were these pages that were programmed to link to a URL accessing an API (which URL I imagine was some kind of query string with the data going to the API in) which in fact was not returning anything? Was there not some form of test on the returned data (in this case nothing)?
Have I misunderstood anything?
"...judging by the descriptions a deployment will likely be an agent-based approach that sees a multitude of software agents slurp low-level information from across a company's gear."
Just as well that this company is composed of such Sterling Chaps.
"One thing, I did initially install Ubuntu 13.10 (as per my day-to-day desktop, which I like), but I found the screen sluggish - much slower that the native ChromeOS, so I re-installed with Lubuntu 13.10 and its light weight desktop and it flys."
Interesting: what video adaptor do these things have? (lshw?) I'm wondering if the full Ubuntu's use of 3d/composited desktop is causing the slowdown. I know little about ARM based machines.
Re: @AC 101 06:51
"Hypocritically, these are generally the same people who boast about how many 3rd party GUIs there are for Linux :|"
All GUIs are 'third party' in most GNU/Linux distributions, as plenty others have pointed out.
Now, if Microsoft actually provided a choice (Windows Classic vs Windows Modern), what do you think might happen?
Re: Due diligence?
"Oh - and the shotgun video was a brave move. I don't suppose NSA will get stressed, but will GCHQ report him to about 96 different agencies?"
I think the shotgun stunt may turn off ordinary people, and its those we have to get asking/phoning &c to move large companies. The shotgun thing lets mainstream media bracket the guy off as some nutjob.
The tramp: I recently got a haircut because I was beginning to look too like the icon. If I stick a suit on and carry my sandwiches in a briefcase, I could pass for a 'normal concerned citizen' now. Just about.
Re: Van or De?
Re: "prevent us moving the machines"
"For $20K I'd put them in the back of my car (if I had one) and drive them somewhere willing to host them for free/cheaper."
From reading around t'web I suspect you might need a somewhat larger vehicle to move the servers to another location. I also gather that the legacy machines in use to test builds on obscure architectures might not fit in the usual racks found in many data centres. I also gather it is the build servers that sit in Mr Van Raadt's basement rather than the servers that distribute isos. Producing a release every 6 months with a base/core that has audited code must mean a lot of building.
I take your other point though: this project looks like it needs some transparency and a bit of volunteer time from people who know about communications with end users/community members.
EDIT: In the UK the local police would be visiting to check Mr Van Raadt's basement for possible cannabis production because of the very high electricity use for a domestic address. I'd love a video of the subsequent events....
Re: I don't (knowingly) use OpenBSD myself but I'm definitely sending them a few quid.
"It's good to know they are around, just in case I need something like that. I suggest others do the same."
Never tried a BSD so just bought a CD-ROM set. Not sure if UK reseller has pre-paid for stock (so no immediate benefit). Uses jwm as default environment, which is notable in itself...
Re: I'm not some kind of hippy or anything, and it's an interesting experiment....
@AC 14:22 and all
I'm just wondering: is there really no way of re-purposing all this hardware? Sort of switch them over to looking for Galaxies, Protein mapping or something useful once the Bitcoin rarity threshold becomes silly?
Yeah, 310 packages sounds like CentOS 6.4 -> CentOS 6.5 to me. That is a sort of once or perhaps twice a year point update as AJ MacCleod says.
I'd usually expect the odd library and maybe a kernel update, oh, and Firefox if doing updates monthly.
CentOS 6 of course is Gnome 2.28 and will remain so for the rest of its life until around 2017/2020 (updates and then security only updates).
Re: All to depressingly reminiscent ...
"Worst year of my life, probably."
Yes, reading between the lines, the 'development process' does seem somewhat chaotic. Has anyone done a book about Sinclair and his business approach?
The Amstrad green screen PCW if that was the one with the green screen and double disk drives that were a bit different to normal floppies, was the first small computer I used seriously. Supercalc(?) and the word processor proggy got me a long way, and it was *reliable*.
Very local services: talk to neighbours?
I may get downvoted for this, but if I needed to pay someone else to do a bit of cleaning (that would only ever be for medical incapacity reasons given my Presbyterian upbringing), I'd probably talk to family members and neighbours about which company to purchases services from. They will have had the actual cleaners in their houses for a period of time, and will be able to judge quality and trustworthiness.
I'm just wondering how relevant one of these rating Web sites can be for local choices like this? Your local pub/coffee shop/church/social club/'third place' might be the best ratings agency?
End user sends one email?
I just email an internal email address with the ID number of the PC and a simple description of issue. Auto-response with job number. If it is something odd on the desktop, IT support phone me up and ask me to click on that orange thing that gives them access to my desktop, then they check configs &c. Otherwise stuff just gets done.
All win7 PCs with 'virtualised applications'. Reliable, I can walk into classroom, boot PC, press the projector switch, load my interactive whiteboard screens within the first minute or so of lesson (usually have a bit of a starter to keep students going while I set it up). We have RDP access over unencrypted 'visitor' wifi as well so I can BYOD sort of. Through use of RDP, no data about people on my own laptop, just worksheets.
Re: RHEL (final release) isn't free
"BTW, am I the only one who still can't work out why there are free clones of free clones like Scientific Linux out there? I keep thinking that the free clones should all merge into one free clone to rule them all, but maybe that's just too sensible and obvious."
History I guess.
There are four main RHEL clones that I know of: CentOS, Scientific Linux, Springdale Linux (aka PUIAS Linux) and Oracle Linux. These are direct clones of RHEL7 as far as I can tell, not clones of clones.
Scientific Linux and Springdale Linux arose because of the need of CERN and Fermilab and Princeton/IAS and some other universities for a Linux that they could modify and localise easily. Historically, they developed alongside CentOS, and you may remember that White Box Linux (an earlier RHEL clone) came to a bad end. CentOS has had its moments as well, and this announcement means that there will be more paid developers working on it. Very few projects have a Mark Shuttleworth to bankroll a staff of dozens. Think more like a couple of people part time for one of these projects.
Oracle flog support for their clone, but you can install the clone without support. Many people think Oracle are being a bit cheeky using the srpms that Red Hat must distribute as a consequence of the GPL licence, and then branding it and flogging support. That is capitalism. There is nothing stopping a company with a lot of experience with (say) CentOS flogging support to other smaller companies using CentOS on servers and funding extra staff that way. I'd love to know if anyone has examples of that happening in the wild.
I can imagine Scili and Springdale perhaps moving over to CentOS core with customised repositories for their special requirements (you can already use those with CentOS if you are into processing terabytes of detector data), but, equally, I can imagine these clones remaining separate for now while they watch what happens!
RHEL want their cloudy things out there for free so people can use them and decide if they need to buy support. Sounds ok to me.
"The current RHEL 7 beta is indeed a free ISO you can download and install but, like the final release (which requires a sub from day one), you can't do installs/updates to it without a subscription."
Don't anyone be put off by the 'beta'. I'm posting this on RHEL7 beta running on a recycled laptop (as I do, hence tramp icon, simply a skint end user here) and it is a lot more solid than the finished releases of some other well known Linux distributions I could mention, but won't.
The external repositories (Elrepo/Repoforge/EPEL/Nux &c) as well as CentOSplus can be added and may have modified kernels for things like the missing wifi drivers for older hardware.
For laughs: a fork of CentOS 6 that uses the linux libre kernel and has all the non-free firmware removed? Blag Linux for the 21st Century anyone?
Any examples of other very large PC/micro based computer technology companies that have survived the first generation?
HP? Maybe not so good but still there
IBM was there before microcomputers. Mind you so was Adobe, but in a smaller way.
Cool, all we need now is a Linux distro called 'Rockers' and we can have Mods vs Rockers!
OK, Rockers Linux needs version names. Orderly list please.
Are there emulators for this lot? And dumps of the various cartridge images?
History, access to, future years, hardware failure &c, should be a grant given for writing ones that are not available.
Re: Mint and Mageia bypassed Ubuntu as the most used Linux desktop distros
"You know that anything less than 5% is statistically insignificant, don't you ?"
I suspect you are confusing the concept of a significance level, essentially a probability, with a simple proportion of the population.
To return to the main subject: I suspect Canonical are 'going for it' with mobile devices in the expectation of more powerful processors becoming available. I really like the idea of a smartphone that I can dock and get a desktop with Office package and printer drivers on. I shall consider purchase when I can see, hold and try a working product!
Desktop: Typing this on RHEL7 Beta with the EPEL kernel as I need ath5k wifi drivers on this old thinkpad. Not bad actually, especially with the Hide Top Bar Gnome Shell extension installed.
"I have installed Fedora 20 XFCE on my son's laptop which has SINGLE CORE cpu + AMD Gpu and it works *considerably faster* than Debian wheezy XFCE on my quad-core, 4 GB ram Debian at office!"
Not seeing a *dramatic* speed boost with Fedora 20 XFCE vs Wheezy XFCE vs Xubuntu 13.10 on a Thinkpad X61s using Intel integrated graphics (does 3d but shonky). (I'm trying out a variety of XFCE4 implementations)
Font rendering needs work, probably just a matter of config files. Abiword 3.0.0 has the 'crash when saving a document to PDF' bug same as Xubuntu 13.10, which is probably because they are both packaging Abiword 3.0.0.
Happy Christmas all
Re: "a decent upgrade for Fedora fans"
"Which is good, as they don't have much choice in the matter - each Fedora release is orphaned 13-15 months after it comes out. Upgrade or die."
Or move sideways to RHEL clones like CentOS/Scientific Linux/Springdale Linux/Oracle Linux?
The RHEL 7 beta is out and is based I believe on Fedora 19. Support for 10 years after release (server people like that I gather) with deltas.
Re: I got dumped
"They also asked me to help them restructure the company and take the lead on the project that will optimize and reassign all my future ex-colleagues existing tasks to the remaining colleagues...."
The temptation would have been to 'lead the project' in such a way that would, shall we say, impact slightly on the downstream.
I take it you just took the money and got a better job.
To anyone affected: good luck and remember it is them not you.
"To handle the trolling problem they could change it to a "NoDerivs" Creative Commons licence."
Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston provides 150+ hours of CC classical music. Issued under a No Derivatives licence, so I can't release Colin Carr's Bach Cello Sonatas with a drum'n'base backing track. Or if I do, the ISGM laywers will be writing...
I think railroading people into something like this in a short period is a bit daft.
"Fentem: I think that if the government really is keen to grow the economy it should be trying much harder to get money into the hands of young people - people with energy and ideas. Lack of jobs, inappropriate schemes, meagre benefits, inadequate housing supply and exploitative landlords mean that the young have little scope to express themselves creatively."
How much? Rent + £10K or something and you get to keep any income. Renewable on a yearly basis but with a maximum of 3(?) years. Two sides of A4 as the form. Give them space in cheap buildings just outside cities with huge connectivity and cheap servers and a coffee bar, create critical mass / 'invisible college'. Mentors (not 'quango lags' but actual people who have done something).
Yes, 99% will get written off but the 1% might just generate a return. The whole thing would cost less than a fighter jet. And would give hope and experience. And create networks.
Excellent idea. It should be done. How do we tell them?
Re: How long before...
>>Capacitors held out since 2004.
>What!? You couldn't replace the caps without proprietary tools? Design fail!
OK, clumsy expression on my part. I meant that the motherboard had good quality parts including electrolytic capacitors. Capacitors will inevitably fail sooner or later but the quality range can place the 'or later' well into the decades, or as low as half a decade.
Re: How long before...
"I'd expect they'd be halting manufacture of ANY new designs, while the PC market continues to go down"
I suspect you may be right, but I'd hope that someone does a conservative large case designed for replacability of all parts and expansion, and continues to make parts and new motherboards that fit a common modular standard. Then we pay more up front but can keep it chugging along for (say) 15 years?
Just donated an old HP workstation box (xw6200) that you could pull open and swap a hard drive in a couple of minutes without a screw driver. Upgraded graphics card, memory. Capacitors held out since 2004. Biggish PSU. Heavy bu**er but solid.
"Possibly even a training school for would-be designers?"
Bring it on. You may encounter some competition from tax payer funded institutions who have been providing design training for rather a long time (and with some success), but you try for a unique angle on that. I'd like to see what you come up with...
Beta DVD... was Re: Not sure...
...downloaded and dd'ed to USB stick and boots into installer OK. I'll put it on the 'messing about' laptop and keep the 'proper work' laptop on CentOS 6.
I like CentOS 6.x as a desktop, we shall see what RHEL 7 looks like with Classic or KDE. Rumours of some wifi drivers being taken out of the kernel (mostly a server OS after all).
"To quite my oldest: dont care what it runs as long as I can use Facebook and Twitter..."
When (s)he leaves home, buy her/him a Chromebook. Less remote support needed.
I'm sticking with a stock CentOS on my work/writing laptop and Debian Stable on my multimedia machine. I can see myself getting a Chromebook when I retire and don't have to write a lot (except on forums) or process data.
The Tramp: anyone else downloading the RHEL 7 beta?
"So, with a box of man-sized tissues handy lest tales of 35mm film prove too lachrimose, read on..."
Rollei kind of chap myself. How else do you get the lovely African bride resplendant in her white dress in the sun outside the church along with her Ginger haired/green eyed groom in salt'n'pepper penguin suit? The Kodak wedding colour negative films and the NPH400 had such a tail on them it was unreal. I'm talking 1 metre square prints.
FP4 in Rodinol 1+50 for 12 to 15 mins was ace as well.
35mm note: the lady who processed and colour printed my trannies at the local developers could tell which negs were from the Leica and which from the Nikon (35mm focal length lenses both).
"You can't just pick up a brush and knock up a masterpiece. You can't just jump into a plane and fly it. It's the same with snapping, it takes years of graft to get to where we are as pros."
True of many occupations I feel.
"We use Azure for hundreds of hosted customers running line of business apps - ERP type - and I will agree with 80% of the above."
What is the 20% you would not agree with? Just interested.
Not sure why you are being downvoted as you give stats based on actual machines.
Well, the main story isn't a big surprise. What would have been a surprise would be Parliament adopting an open source solution with RDP into secure servers to cover BYOD - thus promoting a locally designed system from software houses near at hand...
What I am interested in is what the Hansard gang are up to? If they wanted independence from MS, why on earth not just coopt existing open source software and put a bit of dosh into it?
The tramp: I'll be selling the Big Issue if I don't get back to my paperwork, all done on a laptop running CentOS with Libreoffice. And yes, the hard drive is encrypted just to stop that 'data found on laptop left on the bus' issue.
- Does Apple's iOS 7 make you physically SICK? Try swallowing version 7.1
- Pics Indestructible Death Stars blow up planets with glowing KILL RAY
- Hands on Satisfy my scroll: El Reg gets claws on Windows 8.1 spring update
- Video Snowden: You can't trust SPOOKS with your DATA
- 166 days later: Space Station astronauts return to Earth