Re: What purpose does a tablet serve?
8GB/256GB SSD and an i5 series ULV are not the "top end" but pretty close. May I ask what notebook you are using?
1335 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013
8GB/256GB SSD and an i5 series ULV are not the "top end" but pretty close. May I ask what notebook you are using?
"Manager" desktops are often notebook + dock + 1 or two external Monitors. With the same ULV series CPU as used in the S/Ps
Easily done with an S/P. With 8GB/256GB SSD it also has the needed storage for company use. Actually a lot more for many jobs outside programming since for "document work" the network storage is a better place
Stop and try to READ for a moment. If I do not care for a stylus - why pay the extra MONEY for a stylus equiped unit. There are quite a few Haswell equiped non WACOM/NTrig units that are all cheaper than an SP.
THAT was the question, nothing else
Depending on use case the S/Ps are better since they have a working stylus (Wacom, NTrig)
Screen on a hinge = fixed distance between keyboard and screen = bad
Screen on a hinge = fixed choice of keyboard = bad
Balancing on the lap = unneeded since in cramped condition i use the stylus
NTrig :) The S/P3 is using NTrig Duosense 2 instead of Wacom. The two "old ones" are close in quality (2nd gen Atmel seems to shape up nicely) and have both their pros and cons but the big "problem" (Support in CS) for NTrig has been solved recently
Actually at least one OEM (Fujitsu) already sells a compareable unit with the Q704. Lenovo has proven it can (and is regularly pestered to build a Helix with a current gen CPU and the TP Yogas screen). The new Baytrail units from Lenovo, Fujitsu and HP with 4GB and 1920x1080 (or better) screens look interesting as well.
The S/P3 is a not to the DIN A4 fans that prefer a 12-13'' unit as their "one and only" unit and disliked the S/P so far for the too small screen. I would not be surprised if both S/P2 and S/P3 remain available.
"Small DELL" is either the Latitude 10 or the newer Venue. The Lat10 had a 1280x800 screen so there is a chance the ERP screen does not work on that. 2GB/CTrail Atom add more problems.
The S/Ps have at least an i3 (i5 in the available versions), 4GB and 1920x1080. If the ERP does not run on that - it is NOT designed for a notebook but for a dual screen WS / a notebook + dock. S/P2 can do that as well.
And if that is not enough - tablet pc with 16GB, i7 and 13'' have existed / do exist for some years now. Fujitsu T902 will do the job.
As for the "touch" strawman - roll up tight and inject where the sun does not shine. x86 tablet pc like the S/P have a extremly precise stylus and accept mouse/keyboard for tasks that require them
When it comes to tablet pc that integrated seamlessly into the typical business environment than Windows units with inductive stylus have been and are still the only choice. Thy stylus allows usage of all Windows software and the OS allows sharing of all those VB(A), .NET, SWING UI and other "does not run on Android or iOS" solutions
That is where the S/Ps are aimed and that is where you find them. They are NOT designed to kill an iThingy or Fragmentdroid in the same way a combat boot is not designed to crush an ant.
Okay so you wipe the OS that can actually use the 100€+ inductive digitizer for one that can not use it (NTRIG support is even worse than WACOM support), has no support software for it and you do this because???
There are cheaper tablets around to run that DIY OS.
Actually a battery powerd MIFI in the attache case/backpack is even handier than the USB dongle that sticks out IMHO. 3G units sell at 40-80€, LTE units at 100+ currently. Being able to place them at a convenient spot helps as well.
A tablet pc gives you both. It can take notes a lot better than most tables (Note series is a so-so exception, software still lacks compared to Win7/8) AND is a notebook in mere seconds. Actually more flexible since I can choose keyboard/mouse to my liking and set distance etc.
If you are with Lenovo, wouldn't the TP Yoga or TPT10 fit better / get you better prices? If you talk "200 units" I bet Lenovo makes a nice price on those. Or maybe a Helix if battery life is not the main factor.
I would sell my neighbours grandmother for a (Has|Broad)well equiped Helix "12.5". The combination device was still the best I have seen, sadly it came out when the CPU was already outdated
Okay tell me WHAT i-Series Lenovo with WACOM/NTRIG digitiser exists or is announced that is cheaper than a comparable S/P3?
The TPT10 - is Baytrail and the tablet pc versions are costly(1)
The TP Yoga - costs about the same, is a convertible (heavy!) and has less battery life
The cheaper Lenovo units - are tablets not tablet pc
Same for other devices. They either use a sub-standard stylus (DELL), have technical and support problems and/or low battery life (Sony Tab/Flip), are VERY costly (Fujitsu), are lower powered (HP) or bigger and less "mobile" and more "transportable" (ACER R7-572).
If I use a S/P2 (or any other tablet pc) in cramped conditions - I do not take out the keyboard. I pull out the stylus. That's the main selling feature of tablet pc compared to touch only tablets(2) the very mature software supporting handwriting and handwriting recognition (Bonus: The offline speech recognition of Windows is quite capabel as well)
(1) Possibly worth the money if you insist on 3G/LTE on board
(2) Oh, the S/P3 is not a penabled device since it is NTRIG not Wacom
How much for the WACOM or NTRig equiped convertible MacBook?
If one buys a tablet pc / convertible than one wants/needs the features of both a full powered OS/CPU and an inductive stylus. Since Apple sadly does not offer that - the MB is NOT a competitor.
Actually that is EXACTLY the market MS is targeting. Price, capabilities, presence of MS in tablet pc oriented discussion groups/forums etc. all show that. The S/P3 screams "affordable alternative to Q704" and "more power than similar priced/equiped Baytrails".
Depends on the phone. Smarties can do it easily (WLAN Hotspot on) but featurephones often have a slow sharing / low data rates.
For me the MIFI is all about getting rid of the smartphone. I want/need one with an inductive pen and those have quite a few issues when it comes to long term (> 9month) support. The ones with LT - do not have a pen.
The i3 unit is interesting if compared to the Lenovo TPT10 and Elitepad 1000 units. Smaller SSD but it is faster, bigger screen and more powerful CPU. And the price is "close" while build quality on the S/P series so far was good (Back/sides attract scratches but that's it)
And the bigger models compare to the Thinkpad Yoga price wise. Better than the Q704 and lighter than the Lenovo.
If you don't want a fan - use a Baytrail tablet pc. Where is the problem? There are choices from 8-15'', WACOM/NTRIG/ATMEL, Baytrail or i-Series. Just by what suits your needs.
And if that is as "loud" as the S/P2 - it is almost silent.
After quite a few years with and without GSM equiped units - I do not miss it for my use cases.
About 80+ percent of the time a WLAN under my / my employers control is available anyway. For the rest an external component has the benefit of being easily upgraded / adjusted (LTE has some frequency issues between countries) and does not use the tablet pc power. Smartphones are an alternative but with a 12'' unit dropping a battery powered LTE Mifi in the attache case would be my preference.
The best part on x86 units and touch is - one can easily switch OFF touch and use the stylus only. No go with the Android units, Note does not offer the option.
Now a tablet pc without the touch DIGITIZER would be even better since would allow the non gloss screens.
For my use cases:
The main difference is weight. If I go to a meeting I typically do not need the keyboard etc. So a tablet pc + dock is a more efficient solution for my use cases. Somethink like a (Has|Broad)well upgrade to the Helix (preferably with 12.5'' screen) would be my first choice, followed by a tablet pc + dock and then a convertible. There the Yoga is a damned fine maschine with a good price.
If you use a notebook more than a tablet pc your use case might be the opposite. In that case the dock is a problem since you either need more than one or lug around extra keyboards etc.
Lenovo, Fujitsu and HP think differently. Their tablet pc (as opposed to tablet) units all play in the same price region. And neither is new to this market nor lacks Android units
The Surface PRO2 is a Win8.1/x86 unit not an RT based one. And if you prefer Atom - Lenovo and HP sell nice units (Fujitsu as well but the costs are a bit over the top)
And the type cover was always quite sturdy, the touch cover was so so. If you don't like either - any BT/USB/2.4GHz keyboard will do
What's the problem? Win7 has all the drivers so the S/P series should run under that as well
Two "mainstream" (Fujitsu Q704 and Q584 in some versions) and the "Toughbook" series of specialist devices are at least proofed against rain / splashes. Not for divers
The fanless Atom units should be resonably splash proof (say spilled drink) and with a book sleeve so should be the i-series ones (Vents in the EP121+book are about 1cm above the table)
Where the initial to PRO series Surface really failures? Any concrete numbers on that? The RT flopped as expected given the CTrail ATOM based units that where out at similar price/endurance and better capabilities.
But x86 tablet pc/convertibles, while never a big market, have been build by at least two of the big names (IBM and later Lenovo, Fujitsu) since 2003 at least. And others have been/are also present in the market (HP, DELL, ASUS, ACER,...). Niche market but hey, so is MacOS
As for "cool" - why? Computers are tools so they must be functional. In that way they are like rifles. A HK G36 has all the "cool" toys (Aimpoint, integrated scope, lightweight) but if the weather is to hot/cold/wet/dry it fails. The HK G3 has none of that, it is ugly and primitive. But is does work at -30 degrees, in the rain or even after taking a drop in the mud.
Among tablet pc users the 12-13'' size is generally considered the "right" one since it is close to the useable real estate of a DIN A4 college block. The 10-11'' range was a "if nothing better is around" (Sony Duo 11) or "combined with an Atom it's acceptable"
Bigger tablet pc (Acer R7-572 i.e) are mostly "Artist tool" where portability is a nice add on but not the main job. A 12''/below 1kg/6+h of endurance unit is often seen as the "sweet spot" for units with inductive digitizers.
The switch to NTrig will be debated. DuoSense2 is up to WACOM in most areas, better in some (edge accuracy) and worse in others (needs battery) but still better than Atmel (HP) or the DELL abomination
It's a light, sturdy ultrabook that allows me to choose distance between screen and keyboard and that I can use to quickly take notes, make sketches/drafts, annotate documents etc. All without hiding behind the "Chinese TFT wall" and with a fingerprint free screen easily handed around the conference table for all parties to add data.
Price wise it competes nicely with Thinkpad Yoga or the T/Q series units from Fujitsu
17 but you run the danger of bursting the battery. So only use it when the Fandroids are charging
Since Lenovo and Fujitsu offer similar units at similar/higher prices there are at least three companies that think it is worth the investment. And unlike MS the other two are not trying to push the OS and are both into Android as well. HP is in the market as well the Elitepad 1000 competes against the i3 version of the S/P3
Compared to their offers the prices are decend to good. Even more if you take into account that some of the units offered by the competitors are Baytrail not i3 or better. GSM/LTE is a "to be debated" point for this class of unit. Often they operate in a "WLAN rich" environment. And if that is not enough, a battery powered MIFI router will solve the problem nicely(1)
(1) Users of smartphone could use those as an alternative. But for me the beauty of a tablet pc is to get rid of the smartphone and go back to the "load sunday phone all week" phones
Ever used a tablet pc (as opposed to a tablet)? It's quite a bit different in capabilities with the stylus adding both the option to use desktop software (works fine since 2003) and taking notes / sketches at a precision of a fine pointed (and pressure sensitive) pencil. Add in a very mature "handwriting->computer readable" software and this is a fine piece of equipment for conferences etc.
Put it in a dock, add a USB keyboard and it can replace 90+ percent of the notebooks and desktops (FPS style games and heavy duty software development are the exception)
Oh and the screwdriver hammer has been invented - called a Leatherman IIRC
What is better:
12'' vs 10.6'': The 12'' format is basically DIN A4 from the useable "real estate". Having using the S/P2 "grandfather" (ASUS EP121) and 10'' tablet pc (Dell, Samsung) that is quite a bit of difference for use as a "digital college block"
As for the S/PROs before that, have they, as opposed to the RT variant, really been a flop? Here in germany they can even be found at the Metro owned chains of electronic shops
More variants in power and price from a i3 that is placed nicely against the Lenovo and HP Baytrails (TPT10, EPad 1000) in price with some more power and a faster SSD all up to an i7 that plays against Thinkpad Yoga and Q704
The minority seems big enough that Fujitsu, Lenovo, HP and DELL, Acer, Panasonic,... produce Win8/x86 tablet pc and convertibles and happily deliver new models currently/recently.
(Sadly) not the same. The digitzer (while at least inductive) is the worst of the four and even the 2nd gen pen still has problems. The V8 is actually a lot smaller than the S/P2 (8'' vs 10.6'') and uses a low grade Baytrail. And the Venue11 has a lot more problems (either a low end Baytrail with 2GB max mem or stability problems) to add to that. To bad, the previous DELL tablet pc (Latitude 10) was a fine box (maybe the best of the CTrails) and the hope for the Venues where high.
It seems the S/P2 is sold at "black zero" prices. Decend build, stable, good endurance (and the power cover is out) and the Haswell is a MAJOR boost over the S/P1 CPU in the typical tablet pc uses. Units with comparable power/endurance cost more and similar priced units have either less endurance or a Baytrail (At least with 4GB then)
If you want 8''/BT than the Asus unit is likely the better buy since at least the digitizer works (Wacom).
Currently the best bet for a non MS Win8/x86 unit seems to be to wait for the HP Elitepad1000 or ProPad 600 series to hit retail or maybe the Lenovo Thinkpad 10. They are upper end Baytrails with 4GB/LTE versions available and decend to good styli. Sony is currently "no go" (bad, the Duo13 was nice and the Tab and Flip had potential after a workover)
Russia had a green movement long before the west after all. Even in times of the Zar whole families went out to count the birch trees between the western parts of Russia and Irkutsk
Sony Flip15 or an Acer R7?
A 10mm on an APS-C DSLR (optionally with battery grip), worn on the chest in a "tourist style" will see everything in front of me with a LOT better quality (and endurance) than this or Glasses. And with the lil remote in my pocket I can start the HD video recording anytime I want. No signal, no sound. All for less than 1000€ (Actually around 700-800€). And nobody cares, after all I am not "taking pictures".
Granted no direct to Internet (that only works for pictures at this price range) but that would be done later when I put the 32GB SD card in the notebook and stream it safely in my car or at home.
And even if someone detects it it is still legal here in germany since I am not taking pictures of people but of the scenery (Panoramafreiheit - everything I can see from public ground without using ladders etc. I can photograph) as long as I do not publish it. And see above the cam can not do that directly so the police or court will rule in my favor and call the attackers broken nose "self defence".
Not that any Anonymous "defender of privacy" WILL likely attack me. Being 190cm and "muscular with a slightly expanding middle" (Think Bud Spencer in the 1970s/80s) is a nice defence.
To quote the guard from "Machete": You ever noticed how you let a Mexican into your house just because he's got gardening tools? No questions asked, you just let him right in. Could have a chainsaw, you know, a machete...
I agree with your write up.
But I am willing to pay a bit more for a HUD/Augmented Reality device that I can use 3-5 years (aveage time between replacement of my glasses) with regular updates/patches. And I guess industrie users will as well since electronic devices are typically written off over 3-5 years IIRC.
I do not need an upGRADE but somethink like the continued patch support for WP7.x is required before I buy an AR system. After all if say a camera manufacturer can offer 3+ years support for an entry level DSLR so should a AR glass producer. Sure, the DSLR costs more than a compact but so be it.
and we may have a winner. Won't buy stuff that gets no more support 6-12 month after sales start. Oh and please not tied to a specific software platform and/or set of software services either.
Actually Win8.1 had "boot to desktop" as an option. And this "Servicepack" adds a detection and will boot to desktop if it does not detect touch hardware (see another post for a problem with two synced devices) so if that is what you use Start8 for you can ditch it.
Well, they fouled up one thing. If you have a desktop and a tablet pc using the same MS Live account (my privat boxes do) AND update the desktop - the tablet pc behaves like one as well (booting to desktop).
Well let's see. We rolled out a three digit number of Win8 tablet pc in 2013. Choosen by our customers after they evaluated the three options. The units are well liked by the end user that have ten big icons on the Modern UI and touch them when needed. Typical sales users and engineers (non IT) in the field
By now 30+ Win8(.1) boxes in family and friends, desktop, notebooks and some tablet pc (S/P2s and Ativs). And again most users pin their commonly used programs to the Modern screen and thats it. Depending on what one wants there may be a few more items (30 in my case)
The usage pattern on most customer pc (and the clone setup used by some customers). Small ones with 4 and 5 digit numbers of clients.
Read better tech sources. It was actually quite clear that this FeaturePack would not add the new menue
What Modern apps with a comparable desktop version does the average "pleb" use? Either he uses a company computer that most likely has the standard set of desktop programs and no "apps" at all. Or a privat box where it is "either/or".
Even if I use Outlook or Notes on the company box, I do not use the Modern Mail App (That is actually a bit better than the famous K9 on Android) there and the other way round on the privat unit(1)
Actually used it even in Beta, installed it on all boxes at home on release day. Never used stuff like Start8. Will look into the way the 8.1FP1 treats a desktop this evening (1). System works fine and stable on a wide spread of 2010/2011 (and newer) systems and I actually LIKE Modern and the death of the candy color UI / show effect elements like Aero,
(1)IIRC this FP "boots to desktop" per default if it does not detect touch/pen hardware. Company DT is a convertible so it's seen as "tablet"
World and Dog or some screaming minority und click baiting "journalists"? Most users do not care about start menu and it's features. They have their 10 programs pinned to the desktop or taskbar and use the menu to shut down the box. For them Modern work just fine.
In that case they failed since most Win8 licences sold are x86 versions and there they left the option in to install standard software the old fashioned way.