Re: 'helluva' lotta rubbish!

How old are those units? And does the driver say "I will not work" or "I am not supported"? IIRC some HP Scanners said "not supported" but after clicking "do it anyway" worked nicely under Win7.

Sure, money is tight and dropping "still working" hardware is something many (me included) do not like. But after 5-10 years a new device might be ok.

Re: Installation easier with Linux

About the same it takes for an IT department to clone a standard Windows install to a standard Office PC.

Re: Installation easier with Linux

So about the same amount it takes to install Suse 12.x when you need some stuff from external/commecial repositories.

Re: Business Critical apps

IF the software runs under a proper Unix - why not? Personally I do not care, most of the stuff I have written in the last 15+ years runs fine under Solaris, Windows, MacOS since it it Java based. Some interacts more closely with MS-Products using their file formats but even that might work

OS are a platform, what counts is the software and in a corporate environment the integration and support like SingleSignOn, Printing, Mobile devices etc. I prefer "one OS/UI for all systems" and "supported for the next 10 years" so I typically end up with Windows on client and server but if a customer wants Solairs/HPUX/AIX/OS400 - sure, why not, those work just fine.

Re: Advice on software from a banker?

Normally I would agree. But XP used some older drivers that do not migrate to Win7. They where an "backup, replace with XP drivers" system but quite a few manufacturers never did. Same for some software that does not work properly with UAC.

The software and printers may have been bought in 2009 but they may well have been written in the days of NT4SP7 (aka Win2000)

Re: Business Critical apps

There is no "fixing" required, all Win7 software runs fine and Olaf Officedrohne can effectively use Win8 after 30min of "electrical enhanced" or 8h of normal training. Same amount of time he needs for a new software of any kind.

"Klick on the shiny green icon Olaf" <Bzzt> "The Green one, Olaf"...

Re: Did you just call a Cortina "compact"?

Ford making phones would result in

+ Sturdy and with a decent milage

+ Unit being to wide to fit it the typical pocket

+ Unit being to low to the ground for the post 40 to enter/exit easily so a more costly "xMax" model is offered

+ Replacing user serviceable parts will require massive dismanteling and re-assembly/adjustment

Hmm, sounds a lot like a Samsung phone to me...

Re: 4KB RAM ?

Ah yes, back in the ole days everything was better and made out of wood.

I wrote software "back in the days" (Commercial since 1987, hobby since 1983) and I am happy that those days are gone even for most microcontrollers. Using the oh so bad modern frameworks, languages etc. is more productive and efficient if you have to maintain/change/extend a program. Back in the early 1990s one of my bosses put this to a point "How many days will you shave of the project if we get a OS/2 unit with 4MB of memory and do it in C instead of DOS and MASM?" The answer was 10+ days at 500+ mark/day. The next day the OS/2 box (an Escom IIRC) was unboxed...

Re: Tablets

My Samsung had problems when "auto brightness" was on. Switching to manual worked at least for the Kindle app decently.

Re: Tablets

The Kindle app on W8 is about the same in quality as the one on Android. Tested it, went back to the full application. The "Apps" can not use folders/groups, all books are "one big cabinet". Both W8 and Android apps (as of February) also occasionally had problems when going from page to page. Again not present in the application.

But reading on a tablet in portrait mode is simply great. Even on the 1280x800 "low res" unit I use for it. Format is natural, graphics are there in the app Just went through Ospreys "The fall of Eben Emael" and they really did a "Kindle" version not simply a "export the electronic manuscript to the format". At 1/3 the price and instant delivery.

Re: Fundamental dichotomy

Good to hear that my preference for the "scrolls edition" of Tolkien does not say anything about my taste of literature. The 14cm high scrolls with anti-rip perforration every 10cm is simply the only useable format for Lord/Hobbit I have found

Re: Tablets

Cheaper

Better battery duration

Re: Once again, people miss the point ...

Part one is easily solved by the customer - do not buy them at the "killed, ripped appart and mutilated tree" prices NOR the physical version and write the publisher an eMail.

Besides most eBooks I bought the last 3+ years where considerably cheaper than the paper version. The only ones at same price where "pulps" where I valued the "not having to take them to the bin" more than the "should be cheaper". The rest was between 1/2 and 1/5 the price, some where "no longer in print".

Part two is not a problem IMHO. Actually the non/reduced VAT on books should be dropped, they are simply goods, why give them a special treatment? No. they are no longer "culture". Culture is what the majority of people consumes for fun not the "Bildungsbürger" concept of the 19th century

Re: What sort of cretin buys a Amazon Swindle anyway?

Why not use the library? Well

+ Opening times Mo-Fr from 10:00 to 18:00. Guess what my worktimes (including driving) are

+ Saturday is 10:00-14:00 and if you are lucky they do NOT close the doors due to "maximum visitors reached". Last time it took me more than an hour to give back a book...

+ The library is located "middle of city"(1) so getting a parking space on saturday is "if you are lucky". And it is not the part of the city where I leave a bike that would take more than 20€ / 1 day to replace.

+ I do no longer read german translations of anything more complex then feys and knotholes. And I do not read fantasy at all. English books OTOH are a tad rare in a german library

+ For technical books (Typical half time: 3 years) I need an eBook reader anyway

(1) Actually the "culture center", a decaying installation whos surrounding "park" is the main gathering place of junkies, drunks and other elements.

Re: What sort of cretin buys a Amazon Swindle anyway?

Kindle (Hardware or the Windows software) "Work as designed". Technical people should be able to evaluate if they can life with it (IMHO: Yes) and the rest get's a device that simply works. Most people buy their eBooks through exactly one source - Amazon. And where libraries offer eBooks (my hometown does) - Kindles are supported. BECAUSE they have stuff like DRM allowing to limit the lease time of eBooks. Important for eLibraries since their licence requires it.

Re: The problem with Android...

The problems with Android (and in some cases Linux):

Most programs are not tablet optimized. This ranges from not using all of the screen to wildly switching between protrait and landscape modes. MS shares one UI between phone and pc but programs are written for either WP8 or Win8, Android is one OS for both and the developer either has extra work (often not honored by customers money wise) or develops for the far more common phone platform

The ARM CPU is nice for mobiles and media devices but too slow for more demanding tasks. The N80x0 struggles with Handwriting Recognition and forces the user to change recognition mode between character, number and special signs among other deficits. And Speech recognition, something an Atom can do offline, needs the GMail-Man and a running Internet connection. Android/x86 would fix some of that by using more pwerful CPU but why?

A useable device is more than an OS. And the whole software infrastructure for penables under Android (and Linux) is massively lacking. HWR is around what Windows had 2003, the Journaling software is unstable (SNote) or Cloud-Only (EverNote - leagal problems for EU companies!), Speech is "online only", Drawing software is not even up to ole ArtRage2 and so on

Printing under Android is a nightmare! A 25€ "printserver" works fine for all the printers (Ink and laser) and Windows boxes (XP-8) we have. It does not for Android. That either needs "Internet" (a no go in various situations) or works only with selected printers and a special app (And strangely - the cheap ones, even WLAN ones, are not supported) or needs a full sizes CUPS system

Office under Android is not up to OO let alone MS Office. "Can basically show the Powerpoint" is often not enough

For 500€ I can get a Atom-based tablet pc with a mature, stable OS that simply works and has all the software and the seamless integration that 92+ percent of PC networks need and use

Re: Notebook TV anyone?

They do not exist in large numbers because:

Existing Intel/AMD-based mini pc can do the job just fine including the "attach to TV" part (VESA mount). They need a bit more power but 95+ percent of people do not care and this is not a mobile unit

The existing Minis run a software 92+ percent of the users know - Windows

The minis interact seamlessly with Home Server/NAS/Internet because in 92+ percent of the households these components are optimised for Windows

Re: WTF?

Name the tablet and the Android version. Samsung Notes are the only ones with that capacity OOB as far as I know and compared to Windows it is crap even in the latest version. Been there, testet a N80x0 for four month, sold it

Re: Apps

Okay if it must be cheap and I can live with PFY type admins Linux is a choice for "servers". That's why the big hosters use it for their mass market offerings.

But if you need a server platform that will run reliably the next 10 years - forget Linux. If you are lucky and jump on an LTS the moment it comes out AND it is stable you get what? 5 years? Sorry but for servers that must run a long time - use a commercial grade Unix (Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, ...) Initial licence is a bit more costly also not that much more than RedHat on x86 but overall TOC isn't

Re: Vista Part II...?

Tried that. Widi not working, Pen not working. Restored win 8- works

Depends on "what do I need". If you have needs for a penable/convertible then the extra money is worth spending. If not - buy a notebook.

I.e if not for the strong rumors of a Hawell based T90x late this/early next year I would have bought a T902. It is more costly than even the units it replaces but (Tower and Tablet) but would allow me to fill all my use cases with one device.

For others (i.e my parents) an Atom+Dock would replace Notebook/Tower and tablet, I managed to keep them from buying an Android "it's cheap" tablet until Christmas by showing them that it is not "personal"(1). At that time the PIV tower needs a replacement anyway and they will get BayTrail convertible with dock (Or two, moms notebook isn't the freshest either)

(1) Currently dad uses the tower with the bigger screen and mom a 14'' notebook

Re: And if I already wear normal glasses?

IIRC Google said something about the non-"HUD" part being capabel of accepting prescription glasses instead of the window glass in the base model

Re: 12 months ago

Yes, back in 2004 power consumption was one of the two major problems for Tablet PC. Harddisks where the other - tablets are handled rougher than a notebook. Back then partially the Celeron and keeping with the PIII chips "solved" that, partially using higher performance (and much costlier) batteries. Both kept prices high. Only in the last 3 or so years did this get better.

ARM is great for phones and useable for media tablets. OTOH Equinox in the Note 10.1 does reach it's limits in tasks like handwriting recognition, the Ativ500 is more fluent there using the same (SNote) software for testing.

Samsung partially gets around that by forcing the user to switch modes (Letter entry, Number entry, spec char entry) on the HWR reducing some overhead for the engine but making use less fluid. They also deliver the units with a "fat" line strenght configured again making live easier for the HWR (Speed drops if you use the finest line)

Re: The way I see it

IIRC Win8 bascially has "Win8" and "Win8/Pro" for clients. The latter has Domain support, Encrypting File System etc. added. So for corporate use go for Pro, for privat use it depends on your needs

Re: I wish 'd said that.

No. The guys who pay the helpdesk and user I.N. Capabel do!

Re: @mmeier -- Wacom

First and second link are basically the same, the Wacom page just directs to Sourceforge. And that in turn deals with external tablets NOT the digitizer in a tablet pc. Not the same stuff.

Third link also deals with external (USB or serial) devices.

And only for certain kernel versions not a "general supported" driver in both cases. But even with driver support there would still be the lack of HWR and software that can compete with Journal or OneNote

Re: Remember when the Windows fanantics would say "...but its not like Windows..."

Maybe switching to another OS is NOT as simple as some people believe. Even Solaris, a well-maintained, long term (10+ years) stable OS with NO distribution wars would have problems to replace Windows. Let's assume Oracle "sets the x86 version free" (or sells it for Windows-style prices). That would still mean

+ Games won't run. Win7 games (and many XP games) run fine on Win8. And games are one of the reasons for a home pc

+ No MS-Office. And as Munich shows nicely(1) Office is deeply integrated in many workflows in companies and cities. And changing the software is often not an option due to costs. OTOH elder office versions run on Win8

+ No SQL Server. And that is a rather common database, one of the "big three" when it comes to commercial products. Even if one does not use Triggers/Stored Procedures most of the "free" replacements are not in the same league and the commerical ones (DB/2, Oracle) cost a lot more

+ Need to set up a completely new user structure, new software distribution systems etc. Windows desktop often means Windows Server (at least for Login/Authentification) and Windows Software Distribution systems (that work beautiful in a Windows setup)

+ No Sharepoint, no Exchange, no Outlook. The latter two can be replaced by Domino/Notes - for at least the same price. The former has no integrated replacement

...

(1) The Limux "migration" makes massiv use of Citrix. So massive than Munich has double the permanent staff than any other german city. And permanent stuff in germany is very costy/difficult to get rid of - for short term jobs everyone uses contractors

They had the Sony Duo11 in the list - if one convertible counts, they all do

Re: 12 months ago

Actually most of the XP based units had a Wacom even back then and no touch. Only low end units used resistive (i.e Asus MT91 and MT101). That was what partially made the units costly (Shock absorbing mounts for the HDD and a high capacity battery - for the time - where others)

Today the Atom based units can run rings around ARM and the ARM based OS are not running faster. Nor is the architecture more power efficient. To reach similar performance a brand new A15 ARM actually eats more power than the aging CTrail Atom.

If we go into core-i territory the ARM is more power efficient but the core-i can simulate ARM in real time if needed...

Re: @I ain't Spartacus RE:"......just because of the 2 things I sometimes want in a tablet."

Many are waiting for either Haswell, y-Series or (for lower powered devices) Baytrail

Does not help sales that some units upgrades to those CPUs are between "solid rumor" (Sony, Helix) and "almost official" (Thinkpad Tablet 2).

Even if Haswell just delivers more GPU power for the same endurance it will be an option for quite a few situations like replacing the add on (and power hungry) GPU card in some units. Same for Baytrail - just lifting the memory restriction and switching to HD4000 graphics will make this better than the current CTrail Atom

Re: A more balanced review

Q: What tasks are you running that a core-i ULV can not handle? Be it the i3 in the Acer or the i7 units in the Sony?

Granted, programming for Android is one that taxed my older EP121 (similar hardware) but I am not sure if it is memory (In that case the 8GB Sony should work) or CPU (in that case the non-ULV T-Series convertibles should - not doing Android on the T731)

Q: What graphic requirements do you have that a HD4000 can not fulfill?

FPS are about the only piece of software I can think off

Gigabit Ethernet, if needed, is just a 20€ USB dongle away. The unit has USB3 after all

Re: How does work with "necessities"?

Having used all three, iOS the least, Android on tablets since A3 including the TPT1 and N80x0 penables as well as Windows since XP Tablet edition - there is a HUGE difference between a penable and a fingerprint gathering device like the iThingy.

With a inductive stylus you can actually use Word etc. quite well for a large number of tasks, often better than mouse/keyboard combo. The current gen hybrids and/or "cheap" docks make dual use even more easy. For typing lengthy stuff - dock the tablet pc and type. For checking/correcting/annotation - use the pen.

Using a tablet + pen during a presentation (WIDI connection to the beamer) and making annotations based on audience reaction is extremly useful. During talks with customer - just hand it over have him draw his ideas (OneNote or Journal, we even used ArtRage once) and immediatly after the meeting send the notes around in a editable, commentable format (Well for 92+ percent of PCs, Macs and that 1.4 percent system can't)

Hybrids / Tablets with a good bookcase and BT keyboard / convertibles offer the "best of both worlds". As tablets they are light, portable "conference room" tools and in "notebook mode" they can do everything a similar powered notebook can do.

IF and that is the important point IF they have a proper digititzer. Actually quite a few long term users would prefer a tablet pc WITHOUT touch - non-gloss screens and less difference between "point of contact" and "point of detection" for the digitizer

Re: Here we have the top ten Win 8 tablets out of a selection of...

Nope. Actually missing quite a few in that list. Ativ500/700, Dell Latitude 10, Lenovo TPT2, T732/T902 (If the Sony is a tablet so are those), Q702 and Q572....

The Acer tablets (sadly) have no inductive (Wacom or Ntrig) digitizer so the can only do touch or capacitiye SAC (Sausage in condom) "pens"

If you use desktop programs most of the time an inductive digitizer is a must for Windows. So the Samsung Ativ 500/700 or Lenovo Helix as the closest equivalent. And from long experience - there is a big difference between a Wacom "external tablet" and a "screen is the tablet" system

Re: Surface/Pro is actually a high end notebook

Why type when you can simply write? Windows has a working HWR

Re: Netbooks have serious applications

Isn't that normally the market for Toshiba Toughbooks or units like the Fujitsu Q55x with hardened, splash-resistant casings etc?

Re: Atom, saviour of Intel.

Strange. All the big PC manufacturers have new Windows tablets out. Completely new units in many cases not re-cycled tech/chassis etc. And at least DELL and Lenovo have delivery times for their Latitude and TPT2 units currently. And the turnover rate for Ativ500 at the big chains here is high enough that 1/3 of the shops have a "pickup in 2-3 days" instead of "available" listing currently. Given their logistics again a sign the unit sells well.

Re: Simple Explanation - MS MURDERED THE NETBOOK

And more propaganda from the Eadon Democratic Republic.

The Windows Netbooks sold a lot otherwise manufactures would have discontinued them together with XP. Yet they survived well into the Wn7 era. The 10''/1024x600 form factor is thankfully dead. But 300€ low powered 11.6'' units can still be bought without problems, mostly with AMD CPU or Celeron these days. The big german stores have five from Acer and Asus available under the "netbook" header (Mediamarkt)

Now that same store sells me a 4GB/core i3 15'' notebook for 80€ more (Acer Aspire) or a 17'' AMD E1 for 90€ more. Now let us all guess what 99 out of a hundred customers that take home a notebook will buy...

And if the salesperson is good and hears "EMail, Some surfing" he will sell the customer a 460€ iPad4 instead based on the "cool" factor.

Re: Surface/Pro is actually a high end notebook

Currently writing this on the even bigger /heavier EP121 and this works nice on a sofa. That is what the Wacom pen is for.But you are a troll anywhay co mparing an Atom netbook with a core-i based tablet.And a lousy netbook to boot lacking even bluetooth

Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

Thanks for the answer. Matter of usage then. I only used them in "Text mode" under Unix so the XTerm and graphic apps part never came up and the rest is "different way of using the box"

Re: Tablets -- netbooks with a crappy keyboard

Actually there is a reason a netbook won't come with 4GB - the Atom CPU can not handle that currently (Baytrail will change that). Change the CPU and you have a small notebook like the Thinkpad Edge E135 (1)

As for tablet pc and keyboards - there is this think called Bluetooth...

(1) Message to the Eadonverse:

The TP Edge 135 is actually available without Windows on Amazon!

Re: Price

They survived well past XP using Win7 starter. Some of the "last" netbooks came with that as a default OS.

Re: And in two years time

Intel battery life for Atom IS 10h right now for the better units. And with more performance than poor ARM can deliver in it's newest version (A15). And the next gen Atom is around the corner.

You can even get 10h with core-i but that will be heavier than an iThingy by a factor of 2 (Vaio Duo11+Sheet) or 3 (T902 with second battery). But the power! The power! T902 can emulate an ARM device at full speed and still has power to spare (Full power core-i)

Re: pah

Strange that Lenovo (one of the more sucessful PC makers) produced new netbooks well after the "Linux" hype had died down. The last units where even developed after XP was no longer sold and used Win7 as an OS.

As for monolithic - read Professor Tanenbaums comments on Linux, read on the design of the NT Kernel (Hybrid) and hide in shame.

Re: Like for like

The keyboard (and mouse) are In the carry bag :)

Been doing that for quite some time, using a BT keyboard/mouse (MS 6000) combo when I type longer text on my privat tablet pc. Actually recomended against buying the Ativ500 with dock(1) a few times since it offers no benefits (dock is keyboard/standup only). Tablet pc + BT => More choices

(1) Exception: When you need/want 3G, currently you can not get the 3G/non dock variant

Re: Simple Explanation - MS MURDERED THE NETBOOK

Not that stupid lie again. Even the east german propaganda ministry was better at lying than that. Both Asus and Lenovo delivered newly designed netbooks well past the "Penguin hype", some new ones as late as 2010!

The units had tons of hardware limits, a lousy screen resolution and where finally steamrollered by "returned from leasing" Thinkpads, Dells etc. that offered better performance and screens for similar prices. Notebook hardware made some big performance leaps between 2007 and 2010 so many companys did not keep their units past leasing end and the market was swamped with them.

Re: Atom, saviour of Intel.

Actually Atom is alive and well in the Win8 penables and those sell quite decently. And as others stated the next gen is basically out, Baytrail tablets will be in store late Q3/early Q4 this year. One of the reasons (together with Haswell) many are NOT buying right now, i.e a TPT2/Baytrail is basically announced, a Vaio Duo11/Haswell and T903 are "solid rumors"

Re: I'm Surprised They Lasted This Long

Get a better tablet :)

Dell Latitude 10 for example can replace both your tablet and your netbook (Has a replaceable battery as well). The Fujitsu Q552 should work as well. Ativ500 might work (shorter legs, non-replaceable battery)

TPT2 has a fixed battery so this might be a problem, has some limits to the USB as well.

Re: I'm Surprised They Lasted This Long

Surface/Pro is actually a high end notebook (core i5/4GB/1920x1080 graphics etc) not a netbook. Those where/are Atoms,

Now comparing one of the better Netbooks (Lenovo S10-3) with a current tablet pc (Ativ 500 or even Lenovo TPT2 without 3G) the new boxes cost more but offer more as well. S10-3 with 2GB/2500GB HDD and Win7 starter came in at around 400€ (including memory upgrade to 2GB) with a crappy 1024x600 screen and around 6h on battery. An Ativ 500 with Win8 (equivalent to 7 Home/Premium) and a SSD as well as a better screen comes in at 600€, the TPT2 at 700€ and better endurance (and a slightly faster Atom)