1295 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013
I have the store icon on my desktop since the day W8 was released and - I never bought a thing there. Guess I still have that think called "self control". And while Office/2013 is on the boxes, no 365 anywhere here. What's the problem again? Except fanatism on your part?
Re: what made you do it in the first place
Suicide is a sin and running Amok prior to it is illegal here in germany.
And if you refer to Windows - no, you won't. The typical corp workplace is a dozend commonly used programs pinned to the desktop. Win 8 easily can do that AND can "boot to desktop" automatically since W8.1 (free update!) So for the average office worker nothing serious changes.
Re: Who cares about the looks?
I still can not see how W8 forces "Cloud" or "Appstore". Cloud is 100 percent optional (Yes, you can install/activate etc, W8 without an MS account. And there is no special tool etc. needed either).
And Modern UI Apps are an "if you want it" part not a "can use only this" part on the x86 version (RT is similar to an iPad - official store only). If you do not need Apps, and on a desktop or a tablet pc you do not (tablets otoh - but hey, just say no to touchy toys!) you install the same software you ran under W7 the same way you did under W7.
Okay, Linux or Mac-OS equivalents to (Mix of commercial and privat software but I prefer "One OS" so what the companie uses my privat box uses if possible and vice versa)
Support for WACOM/NTRIG tablet pc including Pressure support, handwriting recognition, Writing->Text Batch process
Commecial and certified .NET based corporate software in the accounting and HR department
Certified HBCI compatible Electronic Banking
WSUS (and no, 3rd party repositories outside of company control are not!)
Equivalent to Lightroom and the camera supplied software (I actually can limp along with GIMP for the rest since I am a bit of a miser)
Running the games I want to play
Ease of buying current gen hardware without checking "is it compatible"
10+ years of update support
All on the same level of capabilities and ease of installation. So no WINE stuff, no extra VM, no praying that the CS-Driver for "card x / device y" works with the current kernel etc. And at no loss in performance compared to Windows either, if my graphic card can do something, it MUST be useable!
Re: too bad...
Business did a major upgrade wave in 2013 to get XP out. With a typical three-five years lease on office systems I expect the next change to start 2016 with a peak around 2017.
Actually MS listens. More to corporate customers than to end users but the do. And they implement changes. Slowly and step by step in 8.x currently (Direkt to Desktop is an example, rearanged shutdown element on Modern UI another). They do not follow the "We want the W7 candy look" back screaming of some people and that gets those screamers frustrated. But changes do happen and W8 is very much a "we experiment with this" version of the UI IMHO.
If your W7 maschine works - no good reason to switch to W8 now. If OTOH you can make good use of W8 features/changes - no good reason NOT to switch to W8 now. For me the changes in the WLAN / boot sequence made a big enough difference to switch the desktop as well as the tablet pc. The Modern UI is "good enough for developer work" for me so no big deal since the "special features" of the start menu either are not used, not useful or present in the programs I use so I do not miss them. And I do not use touch at all, not even on the smartphone.
W8 changes a lot and needs fine tuning as did elder versions (Compare NT3.5.1 with Win7). Some already happended (Win 8.1) and some more will happen. There are requests from corporate customers (Admins mostly, less so end users once you whack Muscle Memory Mike a few times to re-train him). This can be a PITA for Joe Average that gets the choice of W8/W8/W8 in the big electronic markets and must relearn stuff. It is mostly of no interest to corporations that have downgrade rights / company licence for W7 and use a "corp client" anyway instead of the seller supplied OS (IF they buy a unit with an installed OS at all - most bigger don't)
And MS is aware of all that. They know (and speak with) their corporate customers and update cycles (3-5 years). And W8 hit the "sweet spot" IMHO timing-wise. W7 was mature but has quite a few years of support left and therefor was choosen by most corporations as an XP replacement so they are done for the next cycle. And now MS slowly improves W8, gets feedback from privat customers and limited roll ins of W8 (for tablet pc mostly) and when 2016 comes along and the next cycle ramps up - they have the Wx version ready that corporations will use for that next cycle.
IBM killed it? Strange, they developed 2.x, 3.x and 4.x versions of it. Nice OS and quite a few good development tools. But it had the same big problem as some other OS - not enough end user software and a lousy marketing.
And that started the loop again. Not enough software for the end user => not enough sales of the OS => Not enough reasons to write/port end user software => Not enough software for the end user=>....
The same with other companies like Commodore (Hey, how about selling that UNIX Amiga), Atari (Hey, how about getting the TT IN THE STORES and Selling us that brilliant Unix TT/X or the ATW), Acorn... Those companies had brilliant engineers and a marketing that would have failed at selling a cure against old age, death and taxes
MS had good engineers and a brilliant marketing. They won.
Here! As soon as the Helix-B goes on (pre)order that will be my next private one. Had an A model as a test device when it came out. Liked most stuff but the pre-Haswell CPU wasn't up to what I really wanted. For a while it looked like I had to bite the sour apple and buy a NTrig unit to get what I want but the both HP (Haswell based) and Lenovo (Broadwell based) WACOM units. The Broadwell unit in the Helix-B fits my usage profile (mainly Tablet PC/Pen only) better
Re: CS Lewis' food for thought
Tolkien? Wrote a lot of low grade stuff like "Lord of the Blings" and "Bilbos 14". His OED on the other hand - still a great work. A bit dry maybe.
Re: Personally ...
>Show me any serious author who uses anything other than a text editor.
Well, Jerry Pournelle for starters. Larry Niven as well if one believes Mr. Pournelles "Chaos Manor" column. Serious enough?
Re: @ Khaptain (was: Personally ...)
>>BSD and Linux (and Minix, Coherent, et alia) were written in vi...
>Remind me again which of those is a science fiction novel?
Linux. It starts with "When Linux dominates the desktop". About as likely as the Orion VII taking of from Base 104.
Re: When a Brit does a review
Maintainability is the one big fault of the S/P series. They are glued together so changing any components is not doable by the customer. MS offers a battery replacement service but replacement after extended warranty is stated at 200€.
Different beasts. The Lenovo equivalent to an S/P2 is the Thinkpad Yoga with Wacom digitizer. That adds a lot of capabilities the touch only Yoga lacks. And between those two the question is one of weight. The TPY always weights around 1.7kg, the S/P2 is around 900g if I need a tablet pc only.
Surface or Surface/Pro? Totally different beasts in usage. The inductive stylus on the S/P will replace a keyboard in all situations where note taking is the prime usage. Say talking with a customer about specs, typical meetings etc. Given the quality and capabilities of the support software for the pen AND the integration into stuff like Sharepont the documents can be shared instantly with all co-workers, stored centrally, indexed, searched etc. And HWR->text is easily done even post-writing. And all works offline.
Back on the desk the unit is docked and likely used with external monitors like a desktop (not a notebook) complete with variable distance between me and the monitors etc.
The fact that it is a Windows unit that integrates in most (90+ percent) of the corporate networks and security policies just like a notebook is an additional bonus. And never having to think "will Windows software x work" is nice as well.
Re: they definitely have a place in the business environment.
Ask Samsung how easy the "incremental improvement" is. Integrating a Wacom or NTrig is one thing. Getting the support software right is another. Samsung even was so-so on the former (Palm rejection on the N8000 is not as good as on the Ativ500t Windows unit of the same gen and tech) and their handwriting recognition and note taking software are still Win XP Tablet editon level. The ARM CPU does not help there either.
Re: What's the market?
Tablet PC market. See Q704, HP Elitepad 1000G2 and the new 2:1 that comes in september etc. The inductive stylus is the dead giveaway there. Small market but its mainly a business market so the prices are okay.
And the docking station fits in nicely as well, same for the seemingly smallish SSDs. A business maschine has no problems with a 128GB SSD since storing the lasted blockbuster "found on the net" is not the typical use case. Even 64GB works (around 25GB left after W8, Office:2013 and some other tools are on it) since business will likely use a central storage.
Quite a few companies disagree with "failed". Granted only small ones like HP, IBM/Lenovo, Fujitsu, Panasonic... But the did and do build tablet pc with the same capabilites and technologies the S/P series uses. It is a small market but one that is not served by other companies and operation systems (Android tries with the Note series. 5-10 years behind Win7/Win8). And if you need a tablet pc there is no replacement for it. Neither a tablet nor an ultrabook offer the same capabilities.
Re: The real question is...
For certain levels of "run". The basic elements will likely work. The pen will not work (NTrig support is even lousier than Wacom(1)) and I am not sure if touch does (NTrig again, Wacoms seperat touch sensor IIRC works in a alpha version). Miracast support under Linux seems to be about as stable as the 1932 Weimar republics government (and about as simple to understand).
(1) And even the beta Wacom pen support has no pressure support etc. And no, the external graphic tablet (That has some support) is NOT the same as the penabled technology used in the tablet pc.
The Venue is actually the "worst of both worlds". Lousy pen, so-so touch. problems with the core-i versions freezing. small variant of the Baytrail (2GB only)...
DELL made a big error to switch from the Wacom in their well-behaved C-Trail Latitude 10 to the Synaptic in the Venues. Sadly because the basic package of the core i units has nice elements.
Re: The sad thing for Microsoft is ...
There is nothing new in the S/P series. Tablet PC have been around since the last decade (Win XP Tablet Edition). They where/are not as common as the touch only tablets due to price (Being done by mainly by Fujitsu/FSC didn't help there either not that IBM/Lenovo convertibles where cheaper). And the availability of cheap SSD helped a lot as well. HDD going bad was the major repair case in the earlier units since they got handled like a college block a lot (and where otherwise very sturdy)
Even today there are quite a few sets with various CPUs etc. in the format with a new one from HP out in September.
Re: Josef Schmid's personal opinion
I can read german (And I know that heise is "Fosstard Research/Germany" - heavily anti MS) so the message is:
SOME people on the council do like Limux. And quite a few of those are IT persons with a mainly UNIX background and an involvement in Limux...
Lotus Notes/Domino is still actively developed and used. And definitly targets the same market as the Outlook/Exchange combo. Including the nice add on of being able to send EMails. Wether it is better depends on your environment and preferences.
Pegasus Mail is still active as well according to the Wiki
Re: The German city of Munich, which famously
Neither was it the city. The court was the Landgericht that is the Bavarian court not the city court (Amtsgericht). And the money goes to the Bavarian treasury not the Munich one.
And Bavaria != München. Actually the most un-Bavarian place in Bavaria IS München!
Re: More than Outlook
München is going the VM route using Citrix. A LOT of Citrix. Oh and WINE for other "rarely used" software. Turned out quite a bit of the software used is NOT MS Office.
Re: if it's not been said already
It has been said a lot. But it is still wrong. Most of the licences are NOT MS, they are for specialist software. Have fun finding OSS developers programming that, it is an extremly booooring stuff that, at the same time, needs a very high level of attention to detail. Not to mention specific knowledge.
So the only ways to get it done are:
a) Buy from a company that writes the stuff for multiple customers
b) Hire in-house staff to do it
b) costs more a lot more and most german cities are broke, often not being able to keep all streets pothole free and having to get approval for budget changes from higher authorities. The few cities that have some "spare money" (München is one) will end up paying for it all alone and not getting any "community" effect back. IT for cities is "sysop" not "developer"
The problem is not MS, most of the software used in the city government is not from them but from small, typically german companies. Same for Banks, Power/water/gas Companies etc.that also uses a lot of custom made software(1) typically done by mid-sized companies (<500 employees).
That is done for the dominant client first - Windows. And preferably for a long term stable server - again Windows (or a commercial UNIX but those cost even more). Most cities use that version since that is what they can get for the lowest maintenance contract price and lowest initial price(2).
Most software houses (some offer only .NET so they won't) will gladly sell you a Linux version - if you pay for it. And since there are a lot less customers for that version AND it has higer risks of change - you pay a lot more. München has decided not to go that route by the way, they use Citrix and WINE instead. So actually LiMux proves that there is little benefit in switching (i.e Freiburg did take a long look at LiMux and did NOT switch)
Supporting OO - again a matter of demand and payment. If you are the only one who wants it - you pay for development and testing. Guess what München did...
As for source code for that applications - all a matter of contract and "deliver with source" or "put source to escrow) are not that uncommon.
Compatible with MS - seen that. But the "how to" is typically left open. Some of the last "fat" clients I wrote had that requirement. We wrote them in - JAVA with a matching UI theme. Same for "must generate Excel sheets" - greetings from POI.
And when it comes to backends - where is the difference between "Must work with MS-SQL Server" and "Must work with DB2/ORACLE/SYBASE"? If you need the features of an RDBMS like Clustering, (near) realtime replication etc. - you will have to make a choice for one of the commercial products anyway. Oh and JBOSS runs fine on a Windows 2003 server as well.
As for the "taxes" part - I do not care who gets the money as long as they deliver and maintain the software for the required time (10+ years for government/banks etc). No "I no longer care" or "fork it if you like".
(1) And some SAP stuff with special customization
(2) And they are required by law to choose those
There was finally a change in city government from Social Democrats to Christian Socialists. With Mayor Ude gone the LiMux stuff now is evaluated as a whole including the costs "hidden" in the vastly increased IT staff (almost double the amount per workplace than similar cities), the dual infrastructure (Citrix+Win) and the need for WINE due to lack of Linux ports for critical software and problems exchanging data with other cities. Once the "All hail OpenSource" blinds are off the result may not be pleasant for the LiMux team.
Since Windows licences are extremly cheap if you buy 4 digit numbers and a move to OpenOffice would work on Windows just as well the "cost" argument will likely not work out. The "10 million saved in licences" will have to be compared to the extra costs in support personal. And the costly licences are the specialist software.
And that has not change (See Weinen<<<WINE above) and would likely increase massively if München orders Linux variants. The support costs are at least partially calculated on "number of customers that might have similar problems" and if you are the single Linux house in an otherwise Windows group your support costs are calculated based on that.
Re: Too crazy for Boys Town, too much of a boy for Crazy Town
Actually doing the S/P is a smart move from MS even if they only make a black zero out of it. The unit shows what can be done and at what pricetag(1). Keeps the other manufacturers "in check" a bit since customers will compare the well build S/P units with what Lenovo/Dell/Fujitsu/HP offers.
As for the Air: It is not a competition if I am shopping for a tablet pc. Simply because it has no inductive stylus and none of the needed support software. Same the other way round, if I shop for a pure notebook the S/P is not in the race since I do not pay for stuff I do not use.
Competing against an iPad(or an AndyPad) - depends on where it does. If a customer wants "mobile tablet devise that supports something similar to your desktop software" then an S/P is a good way since in 92+ percent of the cases it WILL run the desktop software in question (if Apple sold MacOS we could get 97+ percent). While not S/P we actually have customers who decided against iThingy+Webversion/Appversion (that they had to pay a lot for) and for Dell Lat10/Lenovo TPT2+the Application the use (only paying licences). Since we still do good business with them they seem to like our recommendations.
Re: Software is the real problem
Should be doable. It is a Notebook after all and Win8 certified so you can disable secure boot. Win7 has all the support functions/software for the stylus (HWR recognition, MS Journal etc) at (almost) the same quality as Win8. Only question is wether the NTrig stylus used has a W7 driver (NTrig drivers for W7 exist since the Q702 and Q550 used NTrig)
I have been using tablet pc and convertibles since 2004. And I have yet to crack a screen. The pre "Gorilla Glass" screens developed scratches over time but even that is a thing of the past. Basically any cracked screen is a sign of planned abuse, hostile neglect or an insurance case.
Faulty HDD on an S/P won't happen. They all have SSD. If that fails => guarantee case.
As for the "multiple devices": Have fun keeping the data in sync. It is doable between Windows units using OneDrive or Sharepoint. Between Windows and Android/iOS it quickly gets more hassle.
And a notebook speced similar to a S/P3 + a decend tablet should cost at least the same.
Re: I'd love one, but
Strange, I considered a core-i Windows unit with NTRIG digitizer and all a proper maschine. Can do anything short of massiv programming. And the 8GB / 256GB unit should handle even that
If you take the price and compare it to units with a similar capability that BUSINESS will buy, the S/Ps are actually in the middle of the price range. Business buys Lenovo, HP, Fujitsu and a comparable convertible or 2in1 from those companies starts at the 1000€ tag.
Re: I'd love one, but
Actually they target the same market as
Fujitsu Q902 (and the 704)
HP Pro x2 612
and similar units. It would be interesting to see how the S/P compete there.
Re: And meanwhile in Munich…
No they have not. Otherwise they wouldn't need all those Citrix systems, Windows servers and WINE crutches. Ordering a Linux version of the software packages would have been very costly and LiMux preferred to hide most of the extra costs in ther personal budget instead of showing them in the software budget.
Other cities like Freiburg where smarter and checked the software costs BEFORE the migration. After the costs where tallied - they went with the solution that was cheaper.
Re: And meanwhile in Munich…
We are talking
FULL time staff in germany! Where the taxes/healthcare etc. can easily be as high as the money you pay out to your employee.
Still having to pay for Windows/MS Office/Citrix because they can not get rid of it
Maintaining their own distribution
They are definitly NOT saving money. What little they saved on licences (and no 1000+ units customer pays list price) they more than spend on personal.
As for chicken&egg: WHY should a company spend considerable manpower on writing software that no one asks for. We are NOT talking MS or SAP here, more the 50-500 employees range of software houses that offer "general base package + tailoring". So as said before:
IF München wants a Linux version, than München has to order it and pay for it as well as for the additonal maintenance requirements. I am sure if the money is right the companies will take the job. Granted, it WILL cost a lot more than the MS Licences for Office up to Office 2033 and therefor may NOT fit in the LiMux plans.
And if München wants that software to be general available - put that in the contract. The software houses LOVE that. One customer to pay for dev and every "extra" however (un)likely is a bonus
Re: And meanwhile in Munich…
Yawn. Those companies did offer that software because - CUSTOMER DEMAND! No companie that want's to stay in business and earns it's money through software would do stuff "because somewhere in the 1.4 percent user base one might be interested".
I am not doing .NET as my main job, 80+ percent in the last 10+ years where JAVA, quite a bit J2EE. But if a customer is paying - I can do C# as well. Or PHP. Heck, I even do Fortran if I am payed. Mercenary all the way.
Re: And meanwhile in Munich…
We are not talking "mass market" software here but specialist packages for city jobs. Those have a small licence base and are programmed based on customer request and profiles. If 99 cities say "Windows" and one says "Linux" the latter has to pay for each and every change it needs. And if the software needs certifications/checks - you pay fully for those as well unlike the other 99 who "share" the costs at least partially.
And that assumes the software is written in a language that runs on Linux. Let's face it, if my main customer base is "Windows" there is no reason NOT to use the latest versions of C# and .NET (and no, Mono is NOT a substitute since they are n, n > 1, versions behind). I did some work for power companies and they demanded "native Windows software". Well, I programm what is payed and since Windows software is payed well, I do that.
And all that is before we add the "financed by others" (OO) element and the "let's hook the trade goods so we can rip of their data" (Chrome, G-Stuff) elements.
Re: And meanwhile in Munich…
Actually they DO run Windows. Tons of Citrix clients, WINE and other crutches because a sizeable amount of the needed software does not run under Linux.
There is a reason they have double the permanent IT staff of compareable german cities
Re: Couldn't the UK and Swedish police solve all this?
Why should they make a special deal with a fugitive criminal? He gets treated by the book that is ALL he can expect. NO specials!
Re: Couldn't the UK and Swedish police solve all this?
That rule applies to the court (maybe, not all systems use it) not to an individual!
Re: How can any lawer keep a stright face
Because under swedish law the normal way is a final hearing and THEN a charge!
Except that outside of Sweden the swedish court can not force a blood test / DNA sample from him. And THAT is a critical demand of them. One that St. Julian has refused before. As he did an offer to be interviewed in the Swedish embassy (That is - Swedish territory, see DNA sample)
Makes one wonder what he has to hide...
Re: Er, timing?
>No crime in the UK carries a death sentence. Removal of such statutes is a requirement for EU >membership.
It may be now but it wasn't in the past. France is a founding member of the EU but only abolished the death penalty in 1981. GB became a member in 1973 but the final abolishment of the death penalty was 1998 (for cases of treason and piracy)
Re: Er, timing?
The UK has "next right of trial" on St. Julian for skiping bail. So once the Swedes are done with him he goes back to the UK for that and possible some civil law trials from the persons putting up the money for the bond.
AFTER that whoever else wants him can have the bodyparts.
Hmmm - I have heard that "screwing the PoWs wive" still carries "hanged, drawn and quartered" in the UK. Any chance we could get Assange to do that?
The funniest element in the Martyrdom of St Julian
is that until mere days before the swedish judical system became interested in his sexual behaviour he was trying very hard to get permanent resident status in Sweden.
Can one of his followers explain to me WHY the wise, all-knowing St. Julian would try that in a country that is obviously evil and just waiting to deliver him to the hands of the great satan (aka USA)?
Re: Er, timing? @ mmeier
Depends on wether there is a little extra coming in like "Having unprotected sex while carrying an STD". THAT does carry a much heavier punishment in many countries. The whole "blood/DNA sample refusal" makes ME wonder about it. Not to mention that some of his character traits and the Syph match nicely...
Re: Er, timing?
If he goes to trial he gets the worst possible punishment he can imagine:
Possibly a time in jail with no events
Deportation to Australia
And THAT would finally show St. Julian for what he is - a self absorbed POS
So how is the poor agent
That opened the file titled "Hot nude pictures" and found a set of shots from a nude 450pf midget? Have his eyes stopped bleeding?
The critical questions are
+ Quality of the phone part in both speach and connection quality
+ Quality / Endurance of the battery (Bonus points for user-changeable ones)
+ How long will it get bug-fixes/patches (Full Upgrades are a bonus)
+ How often does it self-reboot per week
If it can beat a VEB Plaste and Elaste Note2 there, we might have a winner
- Breaking news: Google exec veep in terrifying SKY PLUNGE DRAMA
- Geek's Guide to Britain Kingston's aviation empire: From industry firsts to Airfix heroes
- Analysis Happy 2nd birthday, Windows 8 and Surface: Anatomy of a disaster
- Google CEO Larry Page gives Sundar Pichai keys to the kingdom
- Something for the Weekend, Sir? SKYPE has the HOTS for my NAKED WIFE