1138 posts • joined 14 Jun 2007
Re: Er, why?
"It's not obvious that they knew of this specific bug - developers were already concerned that OpenSSL's own "secret malloc sauce" was dangerous. Here's OpenSSH's Theo de Raadt gently remonstrating..."
How many times do I need to repeat myself?
This bug is a buffer over-read.
Nothing to do with malloc.
No malloc/calloc/jemalloc/magic-pixies-malloc would have helped.
Yeah, guard pages and canaries could help, but as it stands, so long as the memory being overflowed to still belongs to the process, there won't be any sigsev crash.
After reading your posts, I spent a few hours going over the code again, and google, before replying.
I''m no C expert - definitely no crypto expert, but I would have to say it shows that the code is written by mathematicians rather than programmers! - loads of labels and pointers to pointers to functions and bleugh!
They even comment-out code using #ifdef 0 . Ugh
"If they are really using a stack-based source then electric fence would not have caught it, but I would have hoped some of the code profiling tools would have thrown up a warning about the copy size being potentially bigger than the buffer."
There was an interesting post (http://security.coverity.com/blog/2014/Apr/on-detecting-heartbleed-with-static-analysis.html) from one of the Coverity people on why they missed it, and in a linked followup post, how they've now altered their product to find such errors in future, though to me, it look like their solution is a bit of a kludge, potenially producing false positives (I'm probably wrong, but t seems to me that they are keying on a very weird scenario, not necessarily an illegal one - though I'm probably wrong! - or maybe that's how these programs generally work anyway... I don't know!)
Anyway, I agree with all your comments in general, but am curious - is there really any 'live' malloc that doesn't return a pointer to cleared/scrubbed memory? I know the spec says the contents are undefined, but surely it would be a security risk ( I suppose that a malloc optimized to not bother scrubbing memory returned to the same UID or even just process wouldn't be a hole in itself, but even that would make it easier to exploit bugyy software (especially servers))
Anyway it's a lovely day, so Im going outside. Have a cold beer on me!
Re: @Michael Wojcik
2 errors in the comments in this thread:
"They use their own malloc"
No. If you follow the spaghetti trail that is the source code, you'll see that their "malloc wrapper" is simply a call to the system malloc.
"This wouldn't have happened if they used calloc"
Yes it would. Try it yourself!
This bug has nothing to do with memory allocation. It seems many people think that the buffer is malloced to the 64k by virtue of the attacking packet, but only the much smaller payload is copied into the buffer, exposing the rest of the buffer as malloced but stale data.
THIS ISN'T THE CASE!
Besides, any sane malloc on a multi-user system would clear/randomize the returned buffer.
What is happening is that 64K of data is being copied into a 64kb buffer, from a char * buffer that contains the much smaller data sent by the attacker, hence overfilling the buffer with other variable data on the stack.
It can be simplified to:
strcpy (retbuf, 65535, sentbuf);
I.e. it's read-overflow (or 'buffer overflow' by reading rather than writing) - nothing to do with the memory allocation!
"You are aware that there are IDS rules to detect large-packet TLS responses specifically to spot Heartbleed then? No? Oh..."
Hmmmm, so you're saying the attack will be caught on those servers which have updated IDS rules, but not patched servers?
In other words, any update made to explicitly stop/catch heartbleed is irrelevent when talking about attacks against heartbleed!
Re: this could be exploited in just 4 bytes
"The 4 byte example was enough to show it would work, not enough to have any chance of stealing useful data."
Nah... 4 bytes is all that is needed - in fact, any more would be less effective, as you'd be 'overwriting' the out-of-bounds data you'll be getting back!
Note, this is the request data we are talking about. Many such small requests receiving 64Kb replies may be detected, though.
Re: Selfies can be good.
"So we dutifully used proper ones. Whereas the old self-signed could be replaced instantly. Hence paradoxically our users were more secure with selfies."
Also, don't forget that with a 'selfie' there is no third party chain of trust above you that could be hacked/pwned by gchq/nsa/blackhat etc.
Re: This is nonsense...
Um. My apache servers record both the data size of the request, and the response.
If they have something like that, wouldn't checking the logs for repeated large requests that go nowhere imply they were being heatbled?
Re: "Google's Android 4.1.1 is vulnerable"
"Yes the library inplementing the protocol has a flaw and there is a vulnerability, but the consequences to humanity at large of unsuspecting clients connecting to malicious servers (servers which will still be expected to present a valid SSL certificate) are rather than less serious than those from malicious clients connecting to unsuspecting servers."
Ummm, I don't think anyone has said the problems for clients are just as serious, however you don't seem to understand the situation.
Are you saying you only ever visit google and your banks websites? Or maybe you use the lesser-known plugin "httpsNoWhere"?
Any site you visit could have malicious code - even a non-https site could have embedded https stuff (with a valid certificate too - that's not relevant)
So, you are basically trusting the honesty *and* security of every site you vvisit, and every third party ad company/image broker/js-library provider they use.
Re: Isn't it ironic...
"Oh, and Jamie Jones: There is nothing wrong with Alanis Morissette's understanding of irony; armchair pedants who think there is clearly don't know what irony is."
Now, that's ironic!
I'm not implying that any old random URL posed is somehow authoritive, but this one is accurate:
Re: Isn't it ironic...
Either I've missed something, or you're from the Alanis Morissette school of irony.....
Re: Danger Will Robinson
Thank-you fellow commentards for not commenting on that abomination of a brain-fart (honestly!)
Re: Danger Will Robinson
Hyperthetically, if I have a valid license for XP that is no longer in use, I'm perfectly entitled to transfer it to another installation if it's a transfer and not a copy.
Why do people still think EULAs are above the law?
Adding to that, breaking a contract doesn't automatically mean you are breaking the law anyway.
"It would be alot more convincing if they showed unfudged output images side-by-side with the real pictures. Photoshopping them into the real pictures ruins the credibility in my opinion."
At first I though this amazing algorithm could also predict the way they stood and even the type and colour of clothes they wore!
Re: Who Still Uses Malloc?
Any sane OS (basically all multiuser systems) already zero freshly malloced memory, otherwise it would be a trivial method of exteacting memory information the user wouldn't normally be privileged to do so.
This bug is nothing to do with malloc - it's a basic overflow - the data returned is bigger than the allocated size, thus returning other parts of the processes memory/variables.
So even using calloc throughout would have made no difference here.
Please check before posting that you are secure on that high-horse of yours! :-)
Re: "Because ethernet and wireless are the same."
someone could plug in an ethernet wireless adaptor in and mess up my sat-nav?
How on earth can we survive this, when all we had to worry about before was brakes lines being cut, sugar in the petrol, a banana up the exhaust pipe etc..
Sigh, if someone drives into oncoming traffic or off a cliff due to satnav issues, they shouldn't be on the road!
"Dismissing someone who is leading the biggest and most important software project in existence based on "he used naughty words mummy". Grow the fuck up."
Your obvious bias shows with that comment, but leaving that aside, I'd say Obama is a more important person as a leader oof something, and I'm sure you wouldn't expect him to behave the same way.
Re: Too Little Too Late
"The world has moved on from Microsoft's proprietary API's to FOSS solutions like Android, ChromeOS, Ubuntu, and SteamOS. "
Hmmmmm, another one who thinks FOSS == Linux/GNU
Your use of the 'fanboi-alert' penguin icon was a clue!
Re: Lots more than that -
"Now now, look what you did - you spoiled all the fun with your unwelcome little fact. Tyrion was an a roll with 5 upvotes already!"
Indeed. As a long time opponent of Microsoft OS's and business practices, I get frustrated by the damage done by the FUD spreading Linux users that happen to be cult-of-RMS fanbois, they do more harm than good to Linux and FOSS in general.
I don't know......
It started in school, when someone came to give a talk on apprenticeships, and was surprised to hear that I was going to University.....
And continues throughout my adult career when people (both in and out of the field) say that they are surprised as I don't look like I'm good with computers..
p.s. Post icon is being used for non-windows purposes!
If there are security issues for others, then you have to be responsible.
Additionally, I've made many cockups that I'll admit to, but as I tried to say, for an error so fundamental...
Are you saying there is *nothing* embaressing that you've ever done you'd rather keep to yourself?
Also, note, the blog post wasn't even warning/advising about the error itself - that was an aside - his story was that Amazon picked it up. I'm sure if they hadn't, and he found out his error through other means, no article would have been written.
I'm no Reg shill, but it is clearly impled that the very least that he is shocked by this, and deems it a revelation worth posting about:
Amazon Is Downloading Apps From Google Play and Inspecting Them
I got the following email from Amazon about one of our Android apps that uses our AWS credentials as simple strings in the app itself.
Clearly Amazon or someone working with them is downloading apps from the Google Play Store and decompiling and/or otherwise inspecting them.
I’ve since fixed this problem, but my guess is that I am not alone in using credentials like this in my apps.
I'd personally never make such a schoolboy error, but if I did, telling everyone about it would be the last thing on my mind!
"We don't do mobile redirects atm"
And long may it continue!
Some sense in a sea of of User-Agent sniffing I once thought was in our past, but is unfortunately alive and kicking in tthe mobile world...
Re: Cloud Overlords
I personally haven't notice cloud-bias in the articleseither way.
The comments, however, are overwhelmingly anti-cloud, and obviously aren't being censored...
Re: Cloud Overlords
I assume he was referring to the original poster.
Drew, your fault for not implementing some kind of 'in reply to' header :-)
Re: Date/time in comments is now date only.
Now, the time shows as '..a few minutes ago' etc. (for those of us readers unable to tell the time .....sigh)
A classic case of change with no advantages and just disadvantages.
This change (which isn't even user-configurable scores a BIG black mark)
Australias next big thing?
... hit the rest of the world about 5 years ago.
"Yes, you are missing something.
7-bit ASCII doesn't need the initial '0' ... The modern 8 (16/32/64)-bit systems use of ASCII should be obvious to the cognizant."
Haha, he was quoting you with the initial '0', so I guess your insult is directed at yourself?
Re: CA Minors *can* sign contracts
" You can not delete a Facebook account, "deleting" a Facebook account merely hides your profile page."
Wrong. Facebook has both a 'deactivation' option, and a deletion option. Tin-foil-hat conspiracy theories relating to the latter option are irrelevant.
Re: Confirms my view about Microsoft as a cult
"Anon", I'm as anti-MS as the next guy, but if you weren't trolling, seek professional help especially as you seemed to miss the irony talking about cults when you clearly follow the cult-of-GNU (and no I'm not saying all GNU users/developers/proponents behave cultishly, but unfortunately, many do)
Re: Head to head @1Rafayal
" Interesting that you see it that way. I see many posters ( or is it just one or two ACs) proclaiming that Windows is far superior whilst still seeming to need to rabidly attack Linux with the same old tired untruths."
As a unix user and developer for over 20 years, and a FreeBSD user/developer for 15, I actually have to agree with the 1Rafayal.
Yes, you have the windows trolls but the Linux fanbois are far more prevailent.
Even as part of the open source / free software / unix-not-windows culture, I've regularly been severely voted down for making valid points perceived as being negative against Linux.
And surely you can't have failed to see the enormous upvotes posts get for praising Linux - even those offering no actual substance?
Unfortunately the Slashdot-style 'cult-of-gnu' is alive and kicking on the Reg.
Re: "Safety does not sell"
" It worked, really, really well. An automobile design that was so out of touch with US design preferences that it couldn't be sold here was repositioned as 'it's ugly because it's safe' and people ate that shit up"
They had the same campaign here in the UK, and it worked here too - everyone 'knew' that the ugly Volvo box car was safer.
Re: "Harvard Cancer Expert: Steve Jobs Probably Doomed Himself With Alternative Medicine"
" Sadly, the desperate act the most desperate, and grasp out at anything."
My cousin started going to see one, and he and his parents said it was really working. He died a month later, aged 22, after being milked by these bastards for lots of cash.
I may have missed something here, but what the hell has this got to do with New York citizens and US courts?
Maybe we should prosecute Fox News here in the UK because of the lies they broadcast
It's a funny old world
One government department exploits weaknesses, the other punishes them!
Re: A new Apple T&C clause needed?
Maybe they could ask for your first-born too?
Despite what so many think, terms and conditions / EULAs are not allowed to override laws or reasonable expectations.
Even though not a very thorough response I'm surprised apple even replied to the reg at last!
Re: Jamie Jones Subconscious homophobia showing here
"Major fail for insisting that the injustice of banning gay marriage is somehow equivalent to the misery of slavery, the Holocaust, rape or many of the other issues you listed."
Major fail for erroneously insisting that what I wrote bore anything remotely resembling that.
By your logic, I also equate banning gay marriage similar to banning blue smarties.
I assume you are just trolling again, because nobody can be that stupid.
It was pretty clear (by way of *extreme analogies*) that I was saying that ultimately, you won't be happy with someone who does any of the extreme bad things, yet you presumably don't care about their smartie fixation.
So any indifferent views on whether *this* is acceptable basically reveal how little you care about the subject in hand.
Please go and develop a reading comprehension (and whilst you're at it, look up this thing called 'paragraphs')
Subconscious homophobia showing here.
I don't know enough about the situation, or Eich himself, so my comment is going to be directed at the general circumstance as discussed, and not necessarily the person himself.
Many comments are along the lines that his personal opinions are his own, and as long as he's not discriminating against Mozilla staff, it isn't an issue - we should respect others opinions.
OK, extreme analogy time, in which of the following circumstances is the above paragraph an appropriate comment?, if someone donates $1000 to a group that campaigns for: (in no particular order)
-- investigations into government corruption
-- an end to racial/gender discrimination.
-- stopping cruelty to animals
-- banning blue smarties
-- restricted access to firearms
-- sending Piers Morgan to Mars
-- paedophiles rights
-- extermination of Jews
-- rape to be legal
-- all brown eyed women to be killed
-- piercings to be banned
-- banning gay marriage
-- an end to the BBC license fee
I'm sure you would all find some of the above unacceptable.
If you think banning gay marriage is an acceptable view for someone to financially support, then either you agree with the sentiment yourselves, or you'd be happy with someone supporting all the above examples.
Re: Not sure a small Wordpress blog
" And $10 a month for a server ain't bad either."
$10 for a 500mb server?
One of my backup servers is a FreeBSD jail - 5GB for less than $5 a month (from joinvps.com - i've nothing to do with them, just a customer etc. I think they also do the Linux equivalent at the same price)
Another is only $10 a month for a KVM VPS with native ip6 and 5 ip4's ...
I'm currently typing this on a tablet that cost me £33 brand new (that included postage)
In fact, since my desktop went meh, *all* my El Reg posts over the last 6 months have been on either this, or my old mobile phone (a Nokia E63 back-of-the-sock-draw phone given to me by my brother) - I find the laptop a hassle to use on the sofa/bed etc, and now it's mainly used as a server.
The phone and the tablet run terminal emulators, SSH, VNC, and browsers.
With this same tablet, I've written / debugged, / patched, and enhanced various programs - earning a bounty from one, and fixing a problem in a core FreeBSD utility. I'm currently working on another.
"And weevil, If you mean what you say, then it sounds like you don't have the energy, skill, or interest, to make one of these little things sing."
It's funny - those who are snobby and try to prove their 'leetness' by saying kit isn't powerful enough for them are actually proving their lack of ingenuity.
Re: Good software, stupid name
True, I am going back to the early 90's - when open source and free software weren't generally known, and there was still a big 'Nobody gets fired for buying Microsoft' ethos..
(Yes, I know the phrase originally mentioned IBM, but it was used for Microsoft in the 90's)
Re: Good software, stupid name
Yep, I eventually got FreeBSD used in a previous place of employment - ultimately, it's ability spoke for itself - however, in the initial stages, 'suits' weren't impressed with the word 'free' in the title.
And I''m sure we've all heard of religious American nutjobs who are against it because it 'glorifies satan' etc.
Re: We want action @Mad Mike
" What do you base that on? It certainly doesn't follow on from what I said. Buffoon."
Obviously, he wasn't replying to you.
Re: The comments posted here should be on SNL in the US. You Brits ROCK!
" This was the highlight of my day. Thank you England!!!!!"
You Texans keep forgetting Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland!
Re: Logical move...
The problem is, though, that the word 'Microsoft' holds the same negative connotations - actually, I think it's worse, as there is no ambiguity to the word as there can be with 'windows'.
" This is the company who thought that because 'people' liked running a single application full screen on their tablets, that they'd obviously like to be able to do that on their fucking great big (very expensive) desktop monitor..."
Of course, you could do that already. Microsoft brilliance was in making a new version of windows where you had no choice(*) - thus removing the stress associated with making the decision.
And let's face it, who doesn't want a computer costing hundreds with the same functionality as a 30 quid tablet?
(*) Yes, I know the traditional desktop is there, but MS were pushing metro/not-metro (or whatever) as the next big thing.
Re: It's Secure*
Sorry, I was being a pedantic little twit (Hey, it's the internet, I'm allowed!)
@Alan: yep, anything@domain is too generic. That's why I use a subdomain for wildcard stuff.
@AndrueC: As above. Also, sendmail blocks 'no such user' at RCPT
Re: this sounds like a deal
" I'm sure. Definitely sarcastic. You posted in vain."
Yup. We definitely need(*) an "An American in the room" icon for such occasions!
/me runs away and hides
(*) Sorry, just a crappy joke about the stereotypes regarding America/British sarcasm! Don't be angry old chaps. There's plenty of cake left in the queens parlour. Toodle pip, cheerio old fella!
The article is dated 15/3/2013 and the images 22/3/2013
- Mounties always get their man: Heartbleed 'hacker', 19, CUFFED
- Analysis Oh no, Joe: WinPhone users already griping over 8.1 mega-update
- Leaked pics show EMBIGGENED iPhone 6 screen
- Opportunity selfie: Martian winds have given the spunky ol' rover a spring cleaning
- OK, we get the message, Microsoft: Windows Defender splats 1000s of WinXP, Server 2k3 PCs