881 posts • joined Thursday 4th November 2010 16:10 GMT
"The other, more controversial change in GNOME 3.10 is the disappearance of the minimise button. The only button you'll see in the top right corner of a GNOME 3.10 window is the close button. The GNOME developers think the typical trio of buttons is just too confusing. At this point there seems little point in arguing, the button is gone, GNOME 3 marches on"
Um. This isn't anything new in 3.10. Minimize buttons haven't been present by default since 3.0. Perhaps you turned them back on in gnome-tweak-tool and then forgot you'd done it?
What is 'new' in 3.10 (though really I think 3.8 or even 3.6) is that some apps use the 'combined' titlebars you mention, and those don't have 'minimize' buttons even if you enable them in gnome-tweak-tool.
"It's not hard to see the inspiration for Software – it looks and behaves pretty much like Ubuntu's Software Center."
Kinda, but FWIW, we've had a plan to build something like this for several years and never quite got around to it until now. It's 'inspired' as much by the Android and iTunes app stores as Ubuntu's - it's basically just the whole concept of 'app stores' that it's an implementation of.
"The Fedora project wiki is in a transition stage at the moment, migrating to a new feature-tracking process, which at the time of writing does not offer much in the way of progress reports."
Well, it's not the wiki per se that's "in a transition stage". It's the feature process, which just happens to post some of its content on the wiki. It used to be the 'feature' process, it's now the 'Change' process, it's mostly inside baseball you don't really need to worry about. "Progress reporting" hasn't actually changed much, and isn't an incredibly strong point of the process in either form - it relies on the feature/change owner providing progress reports voluntarily. But if you just want to see what stuff is definitely scheduled to be in Final, you need to be looking not at the _proposed_ list but the _accepted_ list: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/20/ChangeSet
Re: Fedora devs, please wake up!
What do you mean 'your GNOME 3'? Fedora doesn't write GNOME. GNOME writes GNOME. We just ship it. If you don't like it, use any one of the other dozen+ desktops we also ship.
You can still use yumex if you want something 'GUI-for-yum'-y. In fact, the old gnome-packagekit stuff still exists for now, but I don't know if Richard is going to maintain it any more.
Re: Depressing comments
But that weighs an extra 0.8lbs and is much larger (not just for the screen size, either - it's a less efficient design with a much bigger screen bezel). For $1,000 you only get a hard disk: if you want an SSD - which the XPS 13 has - it's an extra $125, which is almost back to the price of the XPS 13, for a bigger heavier system.
Mir? Mirbe not.
"Ubuntu 13.10 is, however, something of an iceberg - the bulk of what's new is hidden away under the surface. Ubuntu 13.10 marks the arrival of Mir, Canonical's new graphics stack designed to replace the ageing X Server."
Or...not so much.
"Ubuntu 13.10 Desktop Will Not Use XMir By Default"
Seems like they really thought this one through carefully.
Re: Do you actually SEARCH your files and programs?
"Do you really use search to find the programs you want to start, or the files you want to open? You don't use menus or browse?"
Yes. Typing 'start, xc, enter' - without even needing to look at the screen, as it's an entirely predictable interaction - is approximately sixty thousand times faster than going start, mouse or keyboard navigate up to 'internet' or 'chat' or some other weird category, mouse or keyboard navigate through a pokey list to the entry labelled xchat, click or hit enter.
I'm stuck in Xfce at the moment because GNOME 3 is not working (occupational hazard of being a QA guy and testing lots of marginal stuff), and hating it. I can't find anything in these ridiculous Windows 98 menus.
Re: All very nice ...
"The web is absolutely full of users bitching about these two items."
There are about three people in the world who both a) still have and b) are still, for some bizarre goddamn reason, attempting to use a G400, so no, no, it really isn't. It is always a valuable thing to get a realistic handle on how much everyone else actually cares about your Precious Snowflake Bug. The answer in your case is 'not at all'.
Have you asked Windows for a Windows 8 driver for it yet? How's that going?
(For those who don't remember, or weren't born, the G400 came out in 1999. It was moderately popular, for a year or two.)
Re: I wonder who uses this Linux
Yes it is. (I work for RH). Oracle takes our entire product, rebrands it, and then attempts to steal our customers by claiming cheaper support prices (and not bothering to do any of the hard engineering work).
Of course, when someone tries to compete with Oracle by offering third party support for their products, they welcome them, say 'this is capitalism!', and compete fairly. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH JUST KIDDING no they don't, they sue their pants off: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/07/26/2346235/oracle-sues-companies-it-says-provide-solaris-os-support-in-illegal-manner
Oracle: truly the world's shittiest company.
(Note: I work for Red Hat, but not on Openshift). The story seems to be missing the information that Openshift has a free tier - three small gears with no official support. The $20 tier adds support and more storage (6GB vs 1GB on free), and a few other things. See https://www.openshift.com/products/pricing .
Reasoning a long way ahead of its evidence
This post seems to reason a long way in advance of its evidence.
It seems to attempt to tie Microsoft's 2007 patent sabre rattling to the desktop specifically, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence for that. The apparent quotation - "the Linux desktop including OpenOffice" - is not sourced, and so far as I can tell, neither the Reg article it links to nor the source *that* article links to actually contains that text. The source and my memory both indicate that Microsoft was talking about Linux or even F/OSS in general, with no specific focus on 'the desktop'.
Note that the GNOME "Big Board" effort and the independent 'Gimmie' project, which together basically kickstarted the discussion and prototyping work which ultimately lead to the development of Shell, both date to early 2007 (April or earlier): *before* Microsoft's sabre-rattling in May 2007. See http://blog.ometer.com/2007/04/03/gnome-online-desktop/ , which pretty much marks the start of the "Online Desktop" / "Big Board" efforts, and http://www.ubuntugeek.com/gimmie-a-new-panel-for-gnome-installation-in-ubuntu.html , an article about an early version of Gimmie which is dated January 2007.
I don't see any compelling evidence to suggest that the long process of discussion, design and prototyping which started in early 2007 and ultimately led to the development of GNOME Shell and GNOME 3.0 has anything to do with Microsoft's May 2007 patent sabre rattling.
Re: Let's hope
The bug darklordsid seems to be referring to is this:
In F18, PackageKit couldn't install packages without a signature - which is often the case with third party packages. So yeah, it was a genuine bug, and a bit annoying if you were trying to use PK for third-party packages.
That was fixed with https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2013-0957/PackageKit-0.8.7-1.fc18 , back in January, so it's been sorted for a while now. It *was* just a bug, not a conspiracy.
There is still an outstanding bug that it can't install a package signed with a key you don't currently trust (it should allow you to do so after warning you and requiring you to authenticate to allow the override) - that's https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=911442 .
It's worth noting the bug only actually affected libreport, which is used for the automated bug reporting tools - abrt and the SELinux troubleshooter thing. You could report bugs manually through Bugzilla fine, it was just the automated tools that broke briefly.
Re: Bug report
Just call it Fedora 19, then. The release name really only exists for the publicity benefits. Very few Fedora users actually refer to the names, they just use the numbers.
The fact that the name broke various things (never mind automated bug reports - it actually broke *system boot*, briefly) is kind of a good thing: it made the code better. The best way to find out if your code is safe for extended characters is to throw some at it; if we hadn't used a release name with an umlaut, a space and a single quote in it, we'd never have found some bugs in various bits of code. Now we did, and the code's better.
Re: You can get cinnamon without getting the DVD,,,
Note that'll only work if you're starting from GNOME - cinnamon is just an alternative shell for GNOME and I don't think the package has all its dependencies properly in place yet, so just 'yum install cinnamon' from, say, a KDE install will give you something that probably won't work. But yeah, if you start from a GNOME install, 'yum install cinnamon' will get you a fine working cinnamon.
Re: LVM on RAID?
Yeah, that was added back for F19. I don't think it was broken 'for a few revisions', though - only in F18. F17 was still on the old UI and LVM-on-RAID still worked with that. It was one of the things that missed F18 because we just didn't have time to get it in (though you could still do it with a kickstart), but it's back in F19. How it works is that in custom partitioning you can edit properties of the VG itself, and RAID level is one of these.
Re: Boots quickly in VirtualBox...
"Anaconda is still pointlessly shouty (lots of headings entirely in capitals for no good reason) and the custom disk partitioning is painful - no obvious option to use all remaining space on device for a partition. I ended up putting in a big size value and let it truncate it down, but that's not great. They're still annoyingly mixing size units (K, MB and GB all on the same screen) too :-("
Again, you can just enter no size at all and it will use all remaining free space. And again, I don't see why you think it's wrong to mix size units. It would make no sense to list a 1MB partition as '1000KB' or '0.001GB', would it?
"Still no package size or description is displayed when the packages are being installed"
And I still don't see why you think there's any particularly good reason to do this, other than making the installer look busier.
"Am I the only one who actively dislikes those white/blue coloured multiple progress bars at the bottom of an otherwise black screen when Fedora boots (yes, the ones that tell you zero about what's going on)?"
Probably. You seem like someone who REALLY CARES A LOT about things that seem really pretty trivial (like, er, all of the above). For the record, though, you only see that screen if kernel modesetting is not working - so basically, usually only in VMs. On actual machines, you get a fully graphical boot splash which is just a big blue screen with the Fedora logo in the middle.
"When I first logged in, I got about a dozen file explorer windows open (this is a known bug that will be fixed, but it just looks sloppy, even for a beta)."
It's also only in MATE, which is not a top-tier supported desktop (in Fedora, GNOME and KDE are supported the most strongly - they're the only desktops in which bugs can block the release - followed by Xfce, LXDE, Sugar, MATE and Cinnamon in about that order). We run a six month release cycle, we have a test team of about a dozen people inc. paid and volunteers, and Fedora includes at least a dozen desktops; there's a pretty hard limit to how strongly we can test them all for a beta release. And it wouldn't have really served any purpose for anyone to delay the Beta release just to fix a superficial bug in MATE.
"I also got an immediate SELinux balloon warning which is bad for a vanilla install"
Again, that doesn't happen in KDE or GNOME; it's actually tied to the lightdm login manager. We were tracking this bug prior to release and the lightdm that shipped in Beta was actually meant to fix it, but the packager made a mistake and inadvertently left the fix out of the build we shipped. The bug is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=922958 . Xfce, MATE and Sugar use lightdm in 19. The AVC is actually basically harmless, it doesn't affect functionality of the system at all; you don't have to turn off SELinux just because you saw an AVC, in fact that's almost always the wrong response. It's much better to report it and follow the report. They are usually resolved very quickly.
Re: Let's hope
To be honest you're pretty much right about that (the GUI package manager). It is not great. It doesn't get much development love and quite honestly it doesn't get much use; in my experience most Fedora users just use yum, and those who use a GUI tend to prefer yumex. We pretty much just test each release that it can install a package, remove a package, do a system update (and yeah, the feedback it gives you while it's doing that kinda sucks), and call it good.
We have a plan to develop an 'app store' type application which would be a much better GUI for 'I want to install an app to do X' kind of tasks, and updates are kinda _supposed_ to be done via the 'offline updates' mechanism now (but GNOME still didn't really get around to obsoleting gpk-update-viewer, so GNOME's story here is something of a mess at present).
Yup, still in the repos.
Re: Will this fix the installer?
F18 didn't actually do that, but I can see where you could've got confused. The UI has been refined quite a lot for F19, so it ought to be clearer now.
After you select the disk(s) to install to, if there is sufficient free space for a Fedora install, Fedora will offer you three options: install to the free space available, use a simple interface to remove or shrink some existing partitions to make even more free space for an install, or use custom partitioning to define the layout yourself.
If you don't have enough free space to install you'll get the latter two options.
If you just pick to go ahead and install, it'll use the free space - it won't delete any existing partitions or data - and it will configure dual boot with any existing OSes that grub2-mkconfig understands automatically.
"The new version includes updated versions of the Gnome, KDE Plasma Workspaces, and MATE desktop environments, and a number of Fedora "Spins" are available that support still other desktops, such as Xfce and LXDE."
Just to clarify this: GNOME, KDE, Xfce, LXDE, MATE, Cinnamon and Sugar are available as 'primary' desktop environments for DVD and network installs. All of the above except Cinnamon are also available as live images. Yet other minority/niche/t3h h4rdc0rez WMs/desktops are also available in the repos, including at least fluxbox and e16. I tested all the 'main' desktops (those listed above) for the Beta, and they all work.
You don't need proprietary drivers for 3D desktops
"The bigger picture, though, is that none of the big three desktops - Unity, GNOME 3 or KDE 4 - are a good fit if you don't have a decent OpenGL accelerator in your machine, plus the appropriate proprietary drivers."
This is a highly inaccurate statement. You do not need proprietary drivers to get decent 3D acceleration on Linux any more, in most cases; certainly not enough acceleration for accelerated desktops to work perfectly well. Fedora does testing with the open source graphics drivers, and in our experience, about 80-95% of all graphics adapters work perfectly well for GNOME Shell with the open source drivers (intel, radeon and nouveau).
Re: It is about the money and applications.
"In all cases it was due to custom disk partitioning and not wanting to use LVM."
Whatever you set the 'Partition type' dropdown on the 'Installation Options' screen to before you go into custom partitioning, will be the default type for newly-created partitions in the custom partitioning screen. So if you want to use plain ext4 partitions, it'll be easier if you set that dropdown to ext4 before you enter custom partitioning. Even if you don't, you can change the type after creating the partition; select the partition, expand the 'Customize...' expander on the right hand side, and you'll see the relevant options.
Re: .. and then there were 2
"SuSE is a Red Hat derivative."
No it isn't. It uses the same package format. That's not the same thing at all.
Re: My take
"Excluding the major irritation that the gnome SSH keyring didnt work. I couldnt get my ssh keys added on startup and the known bug had yet to be resolved."
Known bug? I'm not aware of one and it works fine here. Is this Cinnamon-specific? Or are you using autologin?
Re: "Comfortable with the terminal"
Way to take things out of context. Let's put it back in context, shall we?
"Anyone planning to primarily use Linux to write software or develop web applications will likely be quite happy with Fedora, which does a good job of shipping up-to-date developer tools like Python, Ruby (and Rails) and web servers like Apache. The software installer may not be the best, but the command line Yum installer works just fine so long as you're comfortable with the terminal."
So, what's the context? First off, we're talking about "Anyone planning to primarily use Linux to write software or develop web applications". If you're writing software or developing web applications and you're not comfortable with a terminal...erf. Secondly, note the lead-in: "The software installer may not be the best". This is picking up from an earlier paragraph where Fedora's default graphical package installer (PackageKit) was criticized for not being as good as Ubuntu's and Mint's. So what this paragraph is saying is "if you're a software developer, the benefits of Fedora in terms of having a wide range of up to date development packages available outweigh the minor disadvantage of the graphical package manager not being the best, particularly since you're probably going to wind up using the command line package manager anyway, since you're that kind of person".
But no, fine, by all means, take four words out of context and stick to your two decade old bash if it makes you feel better.
"Wife of party official plied Brit with booze, then poison, as revenge for deal gone wrong"
it seems rather...bold to print accusations of anything this serious and sensitive that happened in China as a fact, unless you have gold-plated video footage or something. A one-day trial seems hardly worth accepting as the kind of legal proof news organizations usually consider necessary before printing something like that as a definite statement, rather than an allegation or possibility...
silly logic nitpick
"The basic entry requirement was also strict. Never mind a sneaking sense you’d quite like to give rowing a go, first you had to be tall: the tallest woman on Sporting Giants was 192.7cm (6’4”) and the tallest man 217.3cm (7’2”)."
That's silly: I can see where you were going, but it's incorrectly demonstrated. If you want to say that 'in order to get into a group of things, a thing needs a certain attribute' you don't cite the member of the group with the _most_ of the attribute - that proves nothing. You cite the member of the group with the _least_ of the attribute. If you told us that the _shortest_ woman on Sporting Giants was, say, 5'10", that would prove (or at least go further towards proving) that you have to be quite tall to get in. Saying that the _tallest_ woman is 6'4" proves exactly nothing, in the context - it leaves entirely open the possibility that the shortest woman was 4'10" or something...
oh, what a choice
"Russia suggested that some of the responsibility for handing out internet addresses should go to the ITU instead of all being under the control of US-based organisation Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)."
Oh, what a choice - Russia or ICANN. Where's option c)? Hell, we should probably contract it out to the monkey house at London Zoo...
Re: What about...
It certainly can, yes. I think there have been 'extreme' novels of this sort which weren't published in the U.K. for fear of the OPA.
Re: Now Reality
I'm sure everyone can sympathize with your position. However, there is a well-known saying in the legal profession - 'hard cases make bad law'. Your case could be designed for this saying to be applied to it. Assuming your characterization is accurate, GS certainly did something bad. However, it is not always a good idea to write or stretch legislation to cover single examples of bad conduct which no-one could find a specific law against, without considering the potential ill effects of that legislation in _other_ cases. It's all well and good stretching the Obscene Publications Act to breaking point to punish a creep...until you find it being abused to persecute people in much different circumstances. This case doesn't just punish your creep, TC; the law doesn't work that way. It sets a precedent in future that a law which was intended to apply to mass publications can be used to police private conversations. Surely you can see why people are worried about this?
Offences against children?
"This is a landmark case [and] a good opportunity from a law enforcement point of view. It opens up the possibility of more people being prosecuted for offences against children."
Surely you missed a word out there. It should obviously read "It opens up the possibility of more people being prosecuted for offences against imaginary children."
Re: greed greed greed
"if you've removed the human element then what does the whole thing signify?"
it's...how companies are funded.
You start from the principle that people can join together to found companies in which each person owns a fractional stake - the 'joint stock company' of history, dating back several centuries - then refine it for a few hundred years, and you get a stock market. What is your alternative to a stock market? How are companies to be owned?
Re: Look on the bright side ....
Well, 'rigged' is a bit of a harsh term. Most major stock exchanges are, to some degree, regulated, based on years of experience that indicate that things which are broadly detrimental to the stock exchange and the economy as a whole can result without regulation. All sensible involved players agree on this - the stock exchanges, the traders, the traded companies, and the government regulators. It's not really controversial.
It only becomes a tad embarrassing for the people who _will_ insist on waving Spherical Cow World free market economic theory around as if it applied without modification to the real world.
Re: Gamblers deserve to lose
"Your pension fund is based on investing your contributions into various assets (mostly stocks). "
That's an assumption too far. Many people have control over the investment of their pension fund. I do; I could put the whole thing in gold or government bonds if I wanted to.
Re: How the hell did this "feature" escape testing?
They probably did. Any QA person will tell you our Rule #0, which is that everything will always go wrong. If you test a program in a test environment exhaustively for five years, testing every possible action or interaction it might ever have to undergo, and finally bash all the bugs out of it, then what you'll find out on day #1 of production is the way in which your test environment didn't _quite_ match the deployment environment.
Re: why the state?
"Actually the state doesn't pay for the court system. Aside from the court fees required from the litigants it is paid for by the taxpayers."
Er...'Paid for by the state' and 'paid for by taxpayers' are basically the same thing.
Re: Only two hour?
You could just not read it.
"After five minutes watching I notices that her extremely long pinky finger nail was hitting the caps lock on the way past, when I told her she said (no word of a lie) “Is there anything you can do to fix that?”"
Playing devil's advocate: what's wrong with that, from a certain perspective? You gave her a tool to do something. It doesn't really work perfectly for her. It's got this booby trap on it: a button that does something dumb she never wants to do, which is placed very close to all these other buttons that do things she wants to do a lot. Isn't that a design flaw? Why wouldn't there be something you could do about it? If your car had a pedal directly between the gas and the brake which caused all the wheels to fall off, would you reckon that was your problem, or complain to the person responsible for the car?
There probably was something you could do for her: lever the caps lock keycap off, or re-assign the key somehow.
Re: Too true
"You wouldn't ask your builder friend to build you a wall for free or your sister's accountant husband to do your books for free. It just royally pisses me off to the point that all I say now is “You do know my daily rate is £500, right?""
Um, people do that _all the time_. I keep my sister-in-law's computers more or less working for free, she does my glasses for free. It's the barter system, it's only several fecking millennia old.
If anything I'm amazed how many 'IT people' think their skills are something rare and special that should on no account be gifted or traded to friends or family. I repeat, contrary to the above bizarre assertion, all sorts of people do this all the time.
""Not entirely sure how you plan to "fix" 100m sprints for example, other than potentially introducing pursuit cheetahs, or a custard track"
How about a mandatory Benny-Hill-style Yakety Sax soundtrack?"
How about all of the above? I'd watch that all damn year long.
Firing a starting gun isn't a particularly sensitive or complex operation, though. You don't have to synchronize it with anything else - it controls everything else (the runners and the timing equipment). The starter can pretty much fire it at whim, as long as it's not _too_ long after the 'set' command. And the operation itself is easy as pie - pull a trigger. So there's no particular reason to use your dominant hand to do it.
Re: re: The "important" bit
I can't off-hand recall seeing anything else which really matches the description anywhere. My point isn't necessarily that it's a good patent, just that it's actually a very specific one which isn't likely to affect anyone else very much.
Re: Shameful (and obvious, too)
I don't think you paid sufficient attention to the gibberish. Remember that you have to take each claim _as a whole_ - something has to meet the description of a whole claim for it to be in violation of the patent. The main claim (1) of this patent isn't just about reading, updating and displaying data stored in a database - it's about summarizing the impact of a subset of that data on some specific operation, and rendering that summary in natural language (a 'narrative explanation'). I doubt the applications you worked on did that, because usually when techies are working on a database thingy, they don't need to simplify and summarize the data and display it in a natural language form. That's only useful, really, in the Facebook kind of context.
(Still not convinced it should be patentable, but I think in practice, few if any other products are potentially in violation of this patent; it's just not a thing there are many use cases for.)
Re: Looking ahead
As I read it, a third party product wouldn't actually infringe this, because the main claim includes:
"accessing a profile for a user stored in an electronic database; presenting a first user interface to the user; receiving a plurality of privacy setting selections provided by the user using the first user interface"
i.e. it includes _setting_ the preferences, not just reading them and summarizing them. So a third-party tool which reads your facebook preferences but can't set them couldn't infringe it. I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but AIUI, if your invention doesn't match _any single part_ of a given claim, it can't be held to infringe the patent based on that claim.
If, say, Google+ included this kind of mechanism in its privacy settings that'd potentially be infringing, though.
Re: Prior Art
A venn diagram is not a 'narrative explanation'.
I love a good patent bash as much as the next person, but can we at least do it accurately?
"generating, by a processor, a narrative explanation of which other users can access which categories of information based on the privacy settings selections, wherein generating the narrative explanation comprises, for one or more of the privacy settings selections, selecting a narrative explanation template based on the privacy settings selection, wherein the narrative explanation template comprises text that identifies a group of other users who can access a category of information about the user profile based on the privacy settings selection"
Warning: reading patents can cause your brain to melt and leak out of your ears. Which is admittedly a good reason for not doing it, but it _can_ make you look silly sometimes.
The main claim seems reasonably specific, to me; it hinges heavily on the idea of a 'narrative explanation' of privacy settings. Essentially it's the following:
* You set all five gajillion privacy options facebook offers to something
* It then figures out the combined impact of the settings on some specific operation
* It presents the impact in natural-language, narrative form, e.g. 'Your relatives and friends who live in London can see pictures you upload from your phone', or something along those lines
It's still arguable whether it should be patentable, but it's a pretty specific patent, as it now stands, and not likely to be terribly applicable to anything other than, well, social networks with massively over-complex privacy settings.