Opinions differ but to my mind a real computer is a computing device on which you can build and run programs on that device. Otherwise its a gadget. So yes, its not sophistry to state Pro is a real computer and iPad is not. Just saying for the benefit of downvoters.

Re: Buy an ultrabook

I'd find it useful to go beyond this Core I5 to have an Intel quad-core in a handy hybrid tablet format though I accept many people would find an Atom or ARM sufficient for their software needs. Rather have option of extra battery in the detachable keyboard unit rather that tied to that light Surface Pro affair. Great to see there are more options coming on the market even if nobody is making my perfect hybrid/detachable yet. Can't see my ever needing a legacy format clamshell again but as always, your mileage may differ.

Re: Inevitable

Odd this anthropomorphism business still runs on thousands of years after ancient gods were invented. Lots of people were doing things with PCs before Microsoft won that 1980s race. Likewise smartphones before Apple, Tablets etc. Crediting Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or even their companies with these concepts rather than noting their commercial success in exploiting the ideas is about as daft as it gets.

As you point out Sil, its primary driver is computing power/watt.

Re: Sporking hell

Metro isn't just about touch so two versions would be a recipe for FAIL. An option to go to directly desktop or corporate start setup at logon would make sense, arrogant they removed this option. Having said that, I would choose to logon to Metro start screen, as I suspect would many people outside locked down corporate systems.

Re: Words have a meaning .. don't mess with them!

Actually I like the two distinct types of application coexisting on one device and the fact I can use (or develop) a Metro app to work well on tablet, detachable, desktop, whatever. What I strongly dislike is the ludicrous notion that a full/split screen metro application space somehow replaces a windowed desktop in general on PC technology. Messaging from Microsoft is extremely muddy on this issue and this as much as the trivia like the start menu business that makes for much criticism I suspect.

Possibly the most fundamental mistake the Windows group at Microsoft made was releasing the whole Metro system without testing the whole concept on non-trivial apps. If Microsoft Office had been shown to work well much criticism on the more radical changes would have been deflected but instead they launched with trivial apps in the store and I've yet to see anything to catch my imagination over 6 months later. Although had they not made this beginners error Metro would be rather different as I don't believe what we have at the moment is capable of delivering an acceptable mode of use for Office. I'm curious as to whether 'Blue' has learned from this mistake or its going to take another year to undo the damage.

As you say, its hard to imagine what it is about windows in Windows that apparently escapes the current marketing and design crew at Microsoft.

Personally I'd like to see hybrid WinRT apps that can operate in multitasking windows on desktop AND the full/split screen space but not holding out much hope this will happen this year.

Re: 8.1 = 6... what?

I gather Windows 8 Blue updates Windows kernel to 6.3, same as used in the next phone, RT, and xbox devices. No idea what improvements to power usage on existing and new chipsets its meant to bring but a major version change suggests more than a bug fixing release.

Re: MS Ignores All Past UI Research

There wasn't the hardware or software 30 years ago to do relevant ergonomic testing for desktop modes of use for multitouch we are looking at nowadays so hardly relevant.

I remember some of those early touch systems in kiosk applications and of course the idea of using them to replace keyboard and the newfangled mouse was laughable at the time, no need for extensive research.

Re: telemetry - just stats and stats are what you lie with

Glad to hear someone else finds drag and drop useful. Too much triumph of form over function in the whole Win8 design.

Also lets have the option to make WinRT apps that can run and multitaksk on the desktop.

Re: "[WP8] is well liked by its users."

Less fud and more facts. What enrages you? Share some of your 'long list'.

Re: Facebook / Instagram etc.

You are being hopelessly naïve. An image may start on facebook but go through any number of copies, (maybe with modifications, metadata changes) to other places before the copyright thief 'discovers' it to claim as their own work.

Re: Next "innovation" in Macs

Maybe but couldn't replace the current Mac lines for some time, and its a big jump from A6X to a SoC to compete with Baytrail and even then the cost savings aren't enormous on an MBA type BOM.

One of my side-bet predictions is an ARM+x86 iOS/OSX hybrid multitouch detachable where the (retina) screen as tablet has passive cooling and you have choice of battery + higher powered CPU etc. in keyboard section. Seems a very obvious step though doubtless would be announced as revolutionary and innovative. Should be doable at MBA-MBP pricing with 2014 tech.

Re: MS tablets used to require styluses

Corrections. Its an Acer tablet. Supports keyboards for those who have applications where keyboard are useful. As also goes for Nexus, iPad etc. Stylus can still be handy too for some of us.

No need to be negative about 7/8" x86 devices which can also have Linux installed on them just because it looks like this model will be sold with Windows bundled.

Re: The obvious solution

Exactly casaloco. Its a crooked industry and I can't think of a single honest reason why OFCOM resists making premium rate calls an opt-in for all telecom services.

Re: Atom, saviour of Intel.

Intel screwed up with the Atom in recent years, that's the reality. Bay Trail due second half of the year goes a long way in catching up with x64, more DRAM, quad core and much improved graphics. But its a product that should have been available in 2012 and that's the underlying reason for many of the current issues discussed here including the death of the netbook and poor PC sales. When Intel get to realize its better to keep their fabs busy on lower margin parts is something we'll discover in time, in the x86 v ARM competition theres little room for $100+ parts.

Its a matter of semantics whether the new detachable/convertible formats are the new netbooks. IMO of current hardware the Surface devices give the best idea of what is to come, whether as Windows or Linux derived machines. Apart from screen aspect ratio. Seems so obvious to me that 16:10 is all it takes to make portrait mode useable - simply incredible how these dreaded 16:9 device keep being wheeled out.

A lot of media encoding/processing doesn't need to be done real-time, or at least doesn't needn't be processed at highest quality levels in real-time. Real time - what you are referring to isn't really a technical problem in practice with modern hardware, these issues you allude to were more of a factor several years ago when people were trying to push slower PC CPU/GPU beyond some intrinsic limits. Still a problem on most current ARM and Atom devices but nobody seriously expects to run the more demanding stuff here until upcoming performance bumps are available.

Re: Are Surface and other detachables counted as PC?

@DougS. The distinction I make as to what constitutes a real PC is the device and its OS must enable software development on the device for the device.

So OSX and Linux PCs count. Surface Pro counts as a PC. Surface RT doesn't. iPad doesn't until we can run XCode to do development in iOS. Similarly as long as Android needs an ancillary PC for development its still a sub-PC OS.

Multithreading much image processing is straightforward, I can easily keep 4-8 cores busy and GPU via CUDA etc. is useful - what software isn't doing this? SSD helps too so plenty of reasons to use an up to date system for more demanding applications.

Yes, apparently Gartner predicts every man, woman, and child on the planet will own at least one mobile phone by 2017 and we'll be replacing them with new models on average once every three years. These analysts need to look up the term 'reality check'.

Re: Long overdue cleanup starts.

Totally agree. Needs rationalizing but this must be difficult when webkit has so many vested interests to satisfy, especially Apple. Dump some of the #ifdef hell. Ditch some craziness (for instance www.webkit.org currently states Visual Studio needs the 2005 edition, use an old DirectX sdk, need to install the QuickTime sdk, unnecessary use of Cygwin; Chromium project at least supports VS2010).

Re: "The Industar look"

What Instagram does and more was being done many years before Instagram was invented. They popularized well known effects.

Re: Too Little Too Late?

Tegra 4 is certainly too late. Also, Google like diversity when dealing with suppliers of reference devices so the Nexus 7 refresh switch is hardly a surprise. Rumor also has it that Microsoft will switch from Tegra for Surface RT 2013 models. All the same if Nvidia succeed in catching up and we see Tegra 5 Logan samples late Autumn with Kepler integration etc., they must be a strong contender for the next wave of 2014 devices. A few million orders here or there doesn't say much about anyones future prospects in such a fast moving industry. What with the ARM competition, Intel Haswell and the upcoming 14nm process I'd hate to place any bets in the mobile space concerning the next couple of years except whatever happens it will almost certainly benefit us users of the devices.

Re: Enterprise

Furthermore what enterprises use whatever the OEM has pre-installed anyway?

Re: Cluster...

Agreed. Its difficult to see any benefit from the whole farrago. I thought ICANN was supposed to be a charity aimed to promote the public good but all we are seeing here is a recipe for money grabbing, scams and a worse internet than we have. If they were based in the UK I'd be requesting a review of their charitable status and an investigation as to why they are up to these antisocial tricks.

Re: How do they not get this?

Indeed. Madness that we are obliged to nurse our old laptops along in the hope that the OEMs finally get the fact we don't want to downgrade our screens. The claim that somehow 16:9 TV screens somehow affects costs of 16:10 laptop screens makes no manufacturing sense either as far as I know.

Re: Windows 8 is killing their laptop and desktop markets

Exactly how does a projected decline of 1.3% equate to falling off a cliff?

Re: apple?

Seriously, what does the 11" MacBook offer that Surface Pro doesn't? Better keyboard and trackpad sure, but higher resolution display, multitouch, stylus count in Surface favour. MBA+iPad obviously is dramatically more expensive.

Re: Damn.

Maybe iPad remains fashionable in some circles but so was the MBA and Surface Pro can replace the iPad+MBA combination at a much lower price with an apparently good build quality. I'm surprised to say I'm impressed (although it would take a higher spec version to persuade me to dip hand in pocket).

Re: Battery life and ARM

"I have a feeling", "miracle that has been promised" is just FUDspeak/sloppy writing. We just don't know enough about the Haswell design decisions to have an opinion beyond being confident Intel are releasing lower power parts.

Agreed about screen, also wireless esp. with increasing use of cloud, LTE.

ARM v Intel makes for interesting competition of benefit to users, you may hope that ARM is the way forward Gordan but hope doesn't mean we won't see Intel products dominating personal computing again on mobile devices if they make the right calls on the 14nm shrink designs and pricing models. We shall see. I, like most people, simply welcome competition if it brings down prices and improves functionality.

Re: I am going to University in sept this year.

@select I'd wait see what happens between now and next academic year, esp. with Haswell coming along in the summer.

Re: Decent idea but lean on spec...

Can't believe I'm defending a 768 display but IPS at 11" is not garbage as it would be on a 14/15" notebook. CPU is definitely underpowered although its a trade for people unlike you or me who won't sacrifice that much to bump the battery life. Agreed on the right track just not there yet for many of us.

Yeah, seems pricy for a low performance model, especially with Microsofts Surface Pro with Core i5 etc. coming soon. A detailed spec. comparison with MBA etc. would be helpful, not a very useful review.

I like the convertible concept but looks like its a wait and see unless HP and others can do better than this price/performance compromise.

Re: Thunderbolt display support

Thanks, I'll read that as meaning we'll need Thunderbolt 2.0 or HTML 2.0 to handle high definition displays in practical situations.

Re: I still think Apple won't sell "screens", just the STB...

Good points.

Our lounge TV is about 5 years old and going strong. Since we bought it, the added value is from the games consoles and media centre we've added plus a Virgin Media TiVo box. We never use the built in tuner. In 5 years time every Apple product currently on sale will be obsolete (as with Google and Microsoft products I'm not bashing Apple).

Sure Apple could take the notion of smart TV to the next level and release a cool device but within a couple of years it would get to feel old and although we can accept a short lifespan for an iPad or phone, most people expect a TV to last longer before it gets annoying. User expectations from a TV are very different to the mobile gadgets that made Apple what it is today.

I guess one good opportunity would be to pioneer 4K UHD TVs, use their buying power to reduce screen costs at a different pace than Sony etc. are currently expecting and introduce higher bandwidth connectors etc. Store integration, good multi-device integration etc. One external device to plug in the consoles etc. and a wireless link from that to the TV itself. Its easy for many of us to come up with some good designs for future TV but traditional manufacturers are floundering and directionless leaving a classic opportunity for Apple to claim to be the innovator simply by using their financial weight. Quite a commercial risk though IMO.

Re: I'd give it a go for 250 squids

One of the new cortex a15 socs or an a6x equivalent. Tegra 4 Wayne looks promising but lets see if it makes CES. Bump the display to 1080p and for me Its an iPad beater. Your mileage may be different. as commented already this doesn't appear to be a Microsoft objective with surface rt.

Re: I'd give it a go for 250 squids

I'd pay the 399 if it came with cover/keyboard AND 64Gb AND the Tegra 3 was replaced with a state of the art ARM SoC. I tried using one and its a neat device but for me a bit underpowered for what it tries to do - shades of the iPad 3 experience now corrected by the 4th generation.

As it stands, looks more like a reference device and something for developers and evaluators, not a mass market product. Limited distribution and priced high to avoid discouraging OEMs from making RT product. Nexus 7 sales were low to begin with as well, no reason to damn Android.

Re: Could it just be......

I like the flexibility that Windows 8 on the new x86 convertibles offers although I've not yet found a device that exactly meets my requirements graphics resolution/ports/trackpad/performance. Clover trail gives reasonable battery life but my own work needs more performance so I need core i5 class CPU at least. Some of my software uses GPU so I don't want to be stuck with Intel integrated graphics. Happy to turn off the power features when I'm on the move but when I'm plugged in at work or a clients I need performance.

Perhaps the Haswell improvements next year will give me the device I'd like without a meage battery life. I'm possibly more demanding than the average user so the fact the current Windows 8 systems don't quite make the grade for me doesn't make them a fail.

I'm also looking forward to seeing Linux implementations with good convertible support. What make me positive about the whole business is the fact that laptops have largely stagnated over the last few years and we now see real signs of change.

Credit where credits due Apple with retina displays and Microsoft with touch and convertible devices are making for more choice in laptop replacements and we can look forward to less of the one size fits all mentality in 2013. I fail to understand why some commentators here apparently feel this is such a bad thing and are always looking for evidence of gloom and doom.

Re: Personally

If you really feel so worried about taking the plunge you could install 8 on a separate disk partition. Similar situation, I didn't have the time to fiddle around with VM experiments just crossed fingers and did the update. No problems with any software I use so counts as 100% success so far but I don't use RSAT at the moment so good to have the heads up if your problems aren't just VM related.