760 posts • joined 29 Oct 2009
Re: MS shilltrolls detected
I'm more amazed that it took the opposing FUD-spreaders as long as it did to pick up on this thread - approximately seven hours of rational discussion about something Microsoft-related without someone screaming "shill!" is pretty good... but I guess it's inevitable in the end.
Is it too much to ask to actually debate the merits and flaws of different mobile operating systems and without the brainless jihadists from all sides getting involved?
Embrace, extend, extinguish. RIP, AOSP.
"Why don't you just let the tech forums have their own discussions"
Someone says something complimentary about an Apple device? They're accused of being a shill or paid to make the comment.
Someone says something complimentary about a Windows Phone? They're accused of being an astroturfer or a Microsoft employee.
That's why tech forums will never have their own balanced discussions - because regardless of whether or not there are people being paid to make comments for a particular product, there will always be those from another camp ready to spread FUD against it...
Re: Speak about your personal experience
..."and use and get downvoted."
Hah. It's when you get accused of being a shill or **** astroturfer/employee that you know you've really hit a nerve!
Re: Take my money! Oh, you're too busy...
I had a great experience the last time I went to an Apple store...
I was looking for a basic iPhone to test the iOS port of a game on. First up, the salesgirl pointed me at the iPod touch. I explained that in order to test, I needed to be able to receive incoming calls, so I could make sure that the game behaved correctly if someone called the phone mid-game.
She pointed me at the lowest cost iPhone. I asked if they did any reconditioned old handsets or second-hand, to which she said "no, but you could try Computer Exchange down the road..."
She then glanced round furtively, fished in her pocket, pulled out a very well used 4S and said quietly "it's where this came from."
I grinned, thanked her and walked out. 20 minutes and a swift transaction later, I was the proud owner of a secondhand 4S, and two hours later, I was testing my game on device. :)
Old codger alert!
What's all this laptop business? When I were a boy, it was about what trainers you wore - anything less than Nike Air and you were on the social scrapheap!
People fall for 419 scams.
People believe that the person who has just rung them up about their machine being full of viruses is in fact a bona fida Microsoft employee.
People believe that that link which will get them a free copy of a game that normally sells for a couple of dollars will actually get them the game and the game only.
Never underestimate the human capacity to do something completely... stupid.
"If the app is good enough people will keep it and they'll make much more money than trying to have in app purchases just to use it.."
@DaLo - wishful thinking, I'm afraid. Don't believe me - check Nigel Brown and Dropbear's comments above: if a feature turns out to require payment, it's time to find another similar app that offers it for free, because it's okay to expect app developers to work for nothing, despite a lot of them giving up their spare time to do so.
@Dropbear - do you love your job so much that you would take on a project knowing that there's a high chance that you won't get paid anything for it?
Because this is exactly what that sort of attitude is saying to indie devs: "make me the best game you can, but don't expect anything in return for your efforts, and if you ask, I'll go elsewhere." This is why the fremium and in-app-add models have risen to the point where they are now abused so thoroughly.
Developers are starting to realise that highest market share does not equate to best platform to target. As I've said before, while Android has about 85% market share, once you factor in that 90% of apps installed are pirate copies (search for "Android Piracy" and apply the median value), it becomes obvious that only 8.5% of the smartphone market can be designated "return-making Android" - less than that of iOS, and only about three and a half times that of Windows Phone. Add to this a huge maintenance overhead (thanks to the massive number of combinations of device, OS version and screen resolution) and low chance of discoverability due to a flooded app store (brought about by a low joining fee and no pre-publishing security/quality checking), and it becomes very unappealing. And this is before the slap in the face of "yeah, your app is good, but I'm not paying for it, go back to your day job".
Yes, I know this is going to attract a load of downvotes - but then the truth hurts. I'm also not advocating Apple's app store process as perfect - in fact by my reckoning, it goes way too far the other way, and I'm waiting for them to require a retinal scan before allowing you to publish.
But I thought that the whole point of Android being "open" was to make it easy and attractive to developers... too bad that this "ain't gonna pay for your hard work" is now starting to drive us away.
@Nigel Brown - I really hope that's sarcasm you're going for there.
Jog on, pal!
People camping outside the Apple store on Regent Street, eh? And getting sponsored for being first in line for the new iThing?
I'm considering the possibilities of bringing laws normally used against travellers to bear here - serve up a court order stating that the recipient must move on withing x days/hours. Add appropriate timing so that the deadline in within a day of the new iThing launch and watch the wailing and gnashing of teeth...
"One reason iOS is erroneously perceived to be more secure than Android"
It's this kind of denial that only increases the average Android user's vulnerability.
You can't have your cake and eat it. It's great that Android is as open as it is (although it would be better still if we saw more viable competing forks of the AOSP), but it's that very openness that makes it an easy target for malware authors.
Rather than get all defensive and tribal, wouldn't it be better for those who are that supportive of Android to accept that it is vulnerable and work to better educate the general users in order to minimise their chances of succumbing to the kind of social engineering attacks that make malware so prevalent on this platform?
Re: Desperate Microsoft
"90% piracy rate? Where did you pull that stat from? Out of your arse?"
Nope. Just went to Google, typed in "android piracy" and hit return. Most articles that quote an actual rate are stating between 85% and 95%, so I took the median figure.
Re: Desperate Microsoft
3% of world market share... yep, pretty horrible.
But then when you compare it to the approx 8% market share of "willing to pay for stuff" Android users (80% total market share modified for 90% piracy rate), it becomes worth targeting.
Unless someone can find confirmed figures for Windows Phone and iPhone piracy rates...
Ultimately, I guess that the really disappointing thing here is that out of the entire smartphone market, 72% seem to think they're entitled to free apps - many of which have required months to develop...
Re: 2 year ATT contract?
But, but, but...
Isn't the whole point of Android that it's open source and you're able to fork it, right? I mean, Google only guides a particular variant of Android, it doesn't control it... right?
Re: The unfairness goes much deeper
The thing is, if Google had drawn the line at internet search, advertising and supporting the AOSP, they would have been great... but alas, power corrupts and all it takes is one or two people in high-up positions with a greedy streak. The "don't be evil" line was crossed - all in the name of improving the business model, of course - and now Google is the new Microsoft, with the possibility of becoming even more of a nightmare if not reigned in.
Of course, there will always be the Google faithful, and given the nature of some comments I've read on here, I'm pretty sure there are also Google astroturfers and FUD-spreaders, but it's kind of tragic that in our bid to shake of the dark days of one evil, so many are unable to see that what they're embracing is rapidly becoming far worse...
Re: Internet Exploder
Pretty sure he did - I don't think he'd have been able to resist finishing with:
"[INSERT MICROSOFT TECHNOLOGY HERE] FAIL"
... for this long.
This is like Android but for el Reg's forums - there's a gap in the market (thanks to Eadon's "departure"), and Google have come up with something to fill it...
Re: Do we really want Google 'owning' all mobile devices in the same way MS 'owned' PCs?
"the more marketshare Android gobbles up, the more phones your previously bought apps will work on."
As a developer, I'd beg to differ.
Over the last year, I've been developing a game for release on iOS, Windows Phone and Android. The Android version has been nothing short of a pain-in-the-arse: I have had to add several layers of hacks and work-arounds to my latest game deal with various API versions and device types - yes, it's crazy, but I have had instances where different handsets running the same API version behave differently in situations such as resuming following incoming calls etc.
Compared to this, the iOS version has been very straightforward, with the only real effort being to get the correct iTunes rating and IAP plugged in. The Windows Phone was slightly more fiddly as 8.1 introduced some new events to handle, but again, not rocket science.
Re: Flash/Non Flash.
Irons, Terry et. al - ignore the Google FUD-spreading A.C. troll - every time there's a thread that mentions WinPhone these days, there's a post of this nature, and I'm willing to bet it's the same person every time.
It's probably just Eadon in disguise since his real account was blocked. Or someone else whose cat got ran over by a Microsoft employee.
And to said AC - your post reads like the kind of noise that Microsoft were slated for making towards other platforms some time ago. How does it feel to become the very thing you hate?
I thought that was their lobbying budget for the year...
Re: sentencing comes late on in the game
"Before you get sentenced, you gotta get nicked, and then found guilty. If you know the odds of that are small..."
Aha! I knew there had to be a use for those "take photos/record audio at any time without consent" facebook app permissions had to be useful for something!
... I'll get me coat.
"The IT kit revolution's OVER, say beancounters..."
Fantastic, Mr. Beancounter - let me introduce you to my friend here...
There's no such thing as a secure platform...
Anything can be broken into - it's just whether or not the effort of doing so is justified by the potential returns.
Expectations vs reality...
The problem with getting kids coding - as I've mentioned in other posts - is the chasm between what a lot of them expect to be able to achieve, and what they can actually achieve.
Those of us lucky enough to grow up in the 80s had simple games and computers that came pre-loaded with BASIC - you could just switch on and start programming. It was relatively simple to write something that placed a text character on the screen at a given position, and allowed input to move that position, and from there, it was not a quantum leap of imagination to get to "game".
Nowadays, high profile games are extravaganzas of high quality imagery and animation (usually 3D), realistic physics and positional sound. And rather than just switching a computer on and typing (with a few pauses to look up a command in the manual), you have to wade through a whole load of setup before you can even get started...
It's like kids who watch Kung Fu panda and get all enthusiastic, then turn up at a martial arts class expecting to be black belts within a month. Inevitably, the vast majority lose interest when they discover that they're expected to do weeks of basic drills and forms before even taking their first grading exam. Similarly, kids are going to want to be able to create Call of Duty or Angry Birds within a few days and give up when they realise just how much work is required...
Re: You have competition AND compatability.
"Nothing Google can do can un-open-source it."
I'm sorry, but - Bollocks. In fact, they're already working on it.
The Android Silver project stinks of the same kind of trickery that Microsoft have been known for: Embrace an open source project, extend it with custom APIs, then extinguish all competition - in this case:
1) create a "standard" with an enticing offer to bring the device manufacturers calling
2) cherry pick the device manufacturers Google want from those that apply
3) subsidise said manufactures so they can undercut the competition
4) manipulate Google search results to maximise discoverability of said subsidised devices
5) wait for the competition to fall due to being undercut by the Google-chosen devices
6) continue updating the APIs required to be part of the "standard", along with the T&Cs
More and more these days, it seems like Google are determined to copy Microsoft, and not just in the way they are acting towards their customers - from the nature of a lot of anonymous posts here these days, it looks like they're now getting into the astroturfing game as well...
Re: You have competition AND compatability.
"It astounds me that the Googloids keep building their arguments based on Google being somehow naturally and intrinsically "good"."
They're kind-of like the technical equivalent of the politically correct brigade - except that anyone who doesn't fit in with their way of thinking is either a "shill" or a "Microsoft employee", rather than a "racist".
I think it's rather funny watching them become the very thing they hate... All this rubbish about "an open source OS that google merely manages" - in other words, Google have embraced AOSP. And over the years they have slowly been extending it by means of their APIs. And now, with Google's pretty much defacto control of web search among the sheep and the advent of "Android Silver Standards", it looks suspiciously like the start of the extinguish part of the cycle.
And, as you rightly point out, there's plenty of "Googloids" all to ready to spread FUD, usually along the lines of "If you're not with us, you'll be stuck with Microsoft!" - I think even the most hardened fan would have to admit that there have been a number of monumental cock-ups and acts of nastiness over Microsoft's history - but who's to say anyone else is going to be any better? Google certainly isn't looking like it will - not any more. Absolute power corrupts absolutely - and what better indication is there of "absolute power" in a particular field that your company's name becoming synonymous with the field itself?
Think before you downvote - are you doing it because you genuinely disagree (in which case, post a reply and counter-argue), or are you doing it because someone dared criticise your supreme Google overlords?
Re: Windows Phone
@App-developer AC: Features aside, from my experience, everything I've written for WinPhone to date just... works: I know what runs on my Nokia test device will run just fine on an HTC and so forth.
Apple - same thing, but by god, the hoops you have to jump through to get anything onto the damn store! Create this certificate, download, install, get your device UUID, upload, create provisioning profile, download, install... feels more like a military compound that a walled garden! Mind you, that said, once up and running, the actual development is pretty simple, and again, it "just works", although with only one device manufacturer, I'd blood well expect it to...
Android... quite frankly, I'm almost scared to put anything out on it. Finding that a Samsung handset works fine while another manufacturer's (think it was Sony, belonged to a mate) running the same OS version crashes when trying to resume... certainly lowers confidence in the platform from a developer perspective, especially when it seems you need at least half-a-dozen handsets for testing purposes.
Also, don't forget that games make up the lions share of the app market.
Somehow, I don't think "Siri, play Angry Birds for me" is going to be very entertaining...
Re: Look at the bright side
"Why write for WinPho when IOS and Android have many more potential customers?"
Why not? After all, you're going to be using a cross-platform toolkit, right? Nobody wants to write the same app twice and have to maintain two code bases... right?
And - given that there are upwards of 1.5billion smartphones out there right now - not targeting Windows Phone means 30 million potential customers lost - that's another 300,000 quid, if your app is £1 a throw and assuming a 1% conversion rate. Not mega-money, I know, but certainly enough to pay off my mortgage...
Careful cornz1 - next thing you know, you'll be accused of being a "shill", or a "microsoft employee", making those kind of noises!
"Ah well 1500 apps removed four left."
Go home AC, you're boring.
Hope that includes...
... all the Flappy Bird/Swing Copter clones.
And what other sensors will these drones have built in? Wifi slurping for any area they pass over? GPS-positioning and image capture of anyone with a Google-powered device in their pocket?
Call me a tinfoil hatter if you like, but... no thanks.
Re: Not surprising
Re: Not surprising
Now hold on...
"Not sure why C's getting the blame for bad Android apps (see end of article)"
The end of the article is talking about free apps that were surveyed, not banking apps. In fact, I don't recall the article mentioning that the problem was specifically with Android banking apps.
Not that I trust any banking app, regardless of OS: while the current security spotlight is on Android due to it being both the biggest and easiest target, I firmly believe that nothing is secure if someone has good enough reason to want to break it.
The "Men in Suits"...
"greater funding would be required to optimise the opportunity to achieve consumer awareness"
In other words, the big players will move in and stomp all over the little guys again, just as happened back in the 80s/90s with home computers. And then everyone will be stuck with their latest version of the same old FPS with different graphics, "spaceships and aliens, no llamas please and nothing to weird", and pay-to-win gameplay mechanics.
Lesser of two evils, I guess...
Re: Android sucks too
... and this is why el Reg needs a +100 button! But just the one upvote and a pint is about the best I can do, I'm afraid!
Re: I do not install anything asking for this permission
Urgh, tell me about it. I've seen it a few times from the developer's side - SDK [blah] looks really useful until you realise it needs permissions X, Y & Z in order to use it, some of which make no sense whatsoever!
These days, if an SDK requires permissions I don't like the look of, it simply doesn't go into my app, no matter how useful it may look. It's difficult enough trying to design so that all users enjoy the app without introducing a rod for your own back, even if it does mean a bit of extra dev. time.
Re: Cult of crapple comes to rescue
@a53 - you think this is bad? Try having a reasonable discussion which involves balancing Microsoft's evils against those of other companies, and watch the accusations of "shill!" fly...
"All the security you've come to expect from Windows on your mobile device!"
... okay, maybe not that bad. But now is the time to be vigilant, lest Android suffers the same fate as Windows and start collapsing under its own weight.
Re: History repeats itself...
"Regardless of whether it gains good traction we'll see stuff a lot worse. After all, you only need to write that scam program once and it will run on all three flavours of Windows 8.1."
But why bother? Very few people like Windows 8, and - as so many are so quick to point out - Windows Phone's market share is currently pretty damn small.
And then you have to go through all the mucking about getting your scam program through certification on the various stores, where it may get spotted for what it is, if you've been a bit too ambitious.
Might as well write it for Android instead. Bigger market share, easier to get programs onto devices... or if you must target desktop, go down the traditional application and attack vectors route.
Re: Hello pot, this is kettle...
Ah, the age old accusation of "shill" coming to the fore once again, despite my stating that I'd like to see all app stores cleared up. Favourite cry of those who are so caught up with their fifteen-plus year old grudge that they have become like Pavlov's dog, but instead of hearing a bell, and starting drooling, they read the word "Microsoft" and start ranting.
Such people end up only giving their own chosen community a bad reputation - look what happened to Eadon.
However, I have to admit that I mistyped on my original post: my intention was to focus solely on mobile. When it comes to the Windows store, I agree with Splodger - what the hell is the point?
Re: History repeats itself...
Distinct difference between malware and scamware, and I think you'll find that the former of these not currently a Windows Phone problem - at least, not for now.
Of course, if WP starts gaining decent traction, I'd be willing to bet good money that someone will find a hack and we'll start seeing stuff a lot worse than fake apps for a price.
Hello pot, this is kettle...
... and similarly, as soon as an article mentions Microsoft, all those who just can't let their grudge go come out to put the boot in again.
If cleaning up the Windows Store is a herculean task, what of cleaning up other mobile stores, regardless of operating system? Especially when the requirements to get an app into a store are no more than paying $25, posting it, and getting through a few bare-bones checks...
I'd love to see a clean-up - on all stores. I'd really love to see blatant clone apps and games included in this sweep, too. And it would be interesting to see just how many apps are left on each store after such a clean-up.
Re-write the UI...
"The re-write is in the UI, with devs keeping the core of the database, back-end and workflows. Xamarin claims up to 70 per cent code re-use."
With the advent of Xamarin forms, the figure for code re-use is a lot higher now - 90% plus was the claim at a seminar I went to recently.
No idea how accurate this is - I don't write apps. But for games, the only real platform-specific code I've had to write to date are the wrappers that get the apps started on each OS, and lifecycle event handling code.
You get used to it eventually...
... it kind of reminds me of back when I was at school and kids were all tribal over whether the Atari ST or Amiga was better.
Re: How much??
"you want to convince people to sign up so it's more viable."
Nope, not really, just talking about my experiences. Don't really care which store or platform my games get downloaded from, so long as there are people out there who get some enjoyment out of playing them. Hell, if it weren't for the fact that I have software licences and promotional costs to cover, I wouldn't even mind if people played pirate copies.
Personally, I'd like to see Blackberry back in the game, and Firefox and Sailfish making some ground too - competition promotes innovation, and is good for the consumer, too. But I digress...
Back on topic - despite the bluster, you haven't answered my question about how you promoted your apps. You see, I didn't think about promotion with my first games, and they're still languishing with only a few thousand downloads each after a number of years. I learned from my mistake and moved forward. Just as I've learned from my time working solely with Windows Phone to move forward and hopefully break into other platforms.
Do you have Android - or iOS - versions of these apps? How successful have they been?
... or is this just another Eadon-esque claim to validate a troll on a platform you don't like?
This can't end well...
- 'Windows 9' LEAK: Microsoft's playing catchup with Linux
- Infosec geniuses hack a Canon PRINTER and install DOOM
- Game Theory Half a BILLION in the making: Bungie's Destiny reviewed
- Review A SCORCHIO fatboy SSD: Samsung SSD850 PRO 3D V-NAND
- Was Earth once covered in HELLFIRE? No – more like a wet Sunday night in Iceland