Re: @codejunky
@codejunkie
You continue to argue under a false belief that we have a strong position. We lose that position the moment we leave, but forget that for now. Most of your arguments are simply rehashing soundbites by Boris and Farage and hold as much water as a sieve.
"Which removed anyone calling for remain. The EU quickly stated that we either remained or leave and no in-between so that removed anyone calling for anything other than leave."
While many are demanding to Remain I've stated before, my position was ambivalent except with regards to the blatant lies told by the Leave campaign. Leave campaigned on the premise that we would have a deal. There was no campaign to leave with No Deal until after the Referendum.
"Actually we can be fairly sure the EU would negotiate a better deal if we stuck to being willing to leave regardless of a deal. Something May refused to do and so her concessions and failure to stand by leave (she was a remainer so somewhat understandable but still wrong)."
Are you the sort of person that demands a restaurant gives you a free dessert? The position of "give us a deal or we walk" has always been the position given. The difference is everyone else knows that No Deal is an absolute clusterfuck and quite rightly want to avoid that. The mistake was not getting consensus from Parliament over what we should be negotiating for, instead taking the Hard Line Brexiteers' demands as red lines resulting in something that no one would accept. Without compromise it was always doomed to fail.
"Actually he is negotiating as we did at the start. The EU wanted to negotiate step by step and wanted their money and their demands etc which May caved to. Yet at the beginning the facts were presented to the EU- we dont have to pay you a penny, nor do we have to have permission to leave. Those facts change the negotiation completely."
Actually the "Divorce Bill" is made up of commitments to various EU and European institutions that we contribute to. Some of these commitments involve treaties. So it is wrong to say we don't owe them anything.
"For the short time that the WA has existed and nobody until now willing to challenge it."
Any change needs to still get through Parliament. Which is now impossible to do. Even if they do manage to create a New Deal we will leave without a deal because there is no time to debate any changes before the end of October.
"I have always considered the backstop an interesting idea. But move the border between the EU and Ireland. Its perfectly sensible, just as sensible as putting the border the other way. Isnt it?"
Have you seriously just suggested that Ireland leave the EU? Putting the border between the EU and Ireland means having a trade deal with Ireland and only Ireland, something that can only happen if Ireland is not in the EU.
"From what? Higher standards can be seen as a good thing until you cant eat. But its high standards so it must be good? Nope. Using standards to isolate your industries from competition is protectionism, and the EU is protectionist. Leaving the EU is about rejoining the rest of the world, that is the context to look at this. Remember their glorious standards of butter mountains and milk lakes."
Have you actually looked at US food standards? They are so low that the chances of getting food poisoning from lettuce is around 20%. Why do they wash their chicken with chlorine? Because their standard are so bad it's to kill all the faecal bacteria that covers the chicken. EU standards on the other hand follow a very simple rule, don't get shit on your food in the first place. US food standards allow for faeces, rat hair, and maggot remains in processed food.
"Nope. There are deals ready to be signed as soon as we leave."
Technically correct, there are 13 trade deals ready to be signed into effect. Not one of them is with our biggest trading partner however. The majority are with smaller economies that will benefit from trading with us, rather than the other way round. Arguably the best deal though is with South Korea, which at least means we'll still have cheap flat screen TVs.
"Longer than it takes us to bend over and accept the scraps from the EU"
"Scraps"? What you mean is the same trading terms as currently, but without having to pay towards membership surely? You are aware that even Norway pays the EU in order to trade? So from this I guess what you really mean is you never want a trade deal with the EU, to continue only on WTO terms, meaning the UK is always trading at a disadvantage with it's largest trading partner.
"Either they say there needs to be a hard border in ireland or they dont. I dont know anyone of either side saying they dont. Right now there is a border with different taxation and rules and smuggling and nobody really sees it as a problem because there are severe limits on what can be done about it. So no its not a problem and yet the EU demand its a problem."
I'll repeat again. The problem is the Good Friday Agreement. The Good Friday Agreement states no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, something that can't work if there is No Deal as that would mean no hard border between the UK and the EU (in case you missed it earlier, Ireland is a member of the EU). If you break the Good Friday Agreement you risk setting Northern Ireland's peace process back over 20 years. There are still paramilitaries in Northern Ireland, on both sides of the sectarian divide, some of which would love to see a return to The Troubles.
"Thats ok the EU is supposed to be good at trade and negotiation? So we can agree to both allow no border and its much the same as now. Ahhh but the EU isnt so good or they wanna cry or something because they are magically making a problem. And its their problem. They can implement a hard border if they want to but its the EU insisting on one."
I'll silence the voice at the back of my head that wants to scream. If there is No Deal we default to a hard border with the rest of the EU. There is a reason for this, and it's nothing to do with the EU making it a problem, it's to do with standards and tariffs. It's to ensure cheap electronics that don't meet EU safety standards don't enter the EU through the UK. It's to ensure we don't undercut EU prices, by flooding the market with cheap imports. It's also to do with the movement of people. How do you control immigration without a deal if you leave one border open and shut all the others? You want to control the number of Eastern Europeans? You need an agreement that allows movement or you shut all EU facing borders. Otherwise all that happens is that instead of entering via Dover, they enter through Ireland. And yes, the EU is very good at negotiation, that's why they have deals that benefit EU members. Deals that up until October we have benefited from.