Re: Better still...

@paulc - LibreOffice does everything most people need it to - hell, Office 2003 does that too. The main barrier is about formatting of all the different MS doc formats and/or macros. LibreOffice is improving at that too, all the time.

LibreOffice is more enjoyable to use. No Ribbon! No DRM. User friendly licence. Price: free!

Re: So if the PC dies

In this instance I have to agree with RyokuMas. Did the Universe undergo some alternative reality distortion?

"Choice and standards must now be the watchwords" - indeed and they always have been. Fair competition is the only way capitalism works in a healthy and openness and standards provide that. But we also need licences that give us the rights to use the computers and the software we please in a fair way too. We should own what we buy. MS says we do not own the software we have bought.

Who wants to pay for something that they then do not own? With open source software you own it, it is yours. Open source treats people like adults, MS treats their customers like children or prisoners.

As someone else said, pirates treat their customers with respect and take out the DRM that makes people's lives unfree and inconvenient. This is a capitalist view - give people good stuff and they will pay.

Re: LO cloud?

@JDX - a version of LIbreOffice that you access via a browser is currently in development, apparently.

Re: So if the PC dies

@Bill the Sys Admin "Ah Eadon the MS rants continue..."

I rant against MS, Oracle and others when they do evil things, which is often. Do you approve of MS treating everyone like prisoners with their draconian licence terms and suffocating DRM? You approve of this rent software not own it bullshit?

Then in that case, my friend, you deserve no freedoms to use your computer and software you paid for how you please.

Most users will fall into Microsoft's trap. This is a switch and bait tactic by MS. It is surely illegal - an abuse of the consumer's rights. In the same way people object to race horses in burgers, they have a right to complain about licences that prevent one taking software one has paid for and installing it on whatever machines we bloody well want.

There you go, another rant :)

Misunderstood

I'm misunderstood a lot on this site :)

I didn't say Windows couldn't do CLI, I said that the Linux CLI was superior. Windows is playing catchup with the toy Powershell CLI. (Those that do not understand UNIX are doomed to reinvent it poorly).

As for Linux and payments - volunteers will help you for free on forums, Linux guys tend to be passionate and are pleased to help out (as a general rule, you always get *ssh*les). I never said there are no Linux professionals (and well paid ones at that). Look at Red Hat, IBM, and just about everywhere else apart from some MS shops.

Re: Unix was replaced by Linux, Windows is next to be replaced by Linux.

@AC 21:50 for major processing Linux wins hands down. Lower TCO, higher performance, more robust.

Re: Linux is a richer OS

MS are leading the market in two areas - MS Office and MS Windows on the desktop. In the server it is run on far fewer systems than Linux (physical and virtual), and Linux is expanding to perform more serverside tasks over time. e.g. super computing, grid computing, cloud computing big data computing, web serving, J2EE / enterprise server systems and so on.

MS have exchange, IIS, Active directory and that's about it. MS on servers are essentially occupying a niche on servers that caters for administering desktops. Even there, Samba 4 on Linux is a viable solution.

MS do make a lot from server-side licence fees. CALs went up 15% last year and other licences up between 8 and 400%. MS are now squeezing enterprise customers to make up for lost profits on desktop, mobile and office systems.

Re: VBA question

@AC 07:50 "Do the Libre/Free Office versions emulate VBA?"

LibreOffice has VBA macro support. In fact a friend of mine ported over scripts from Access to LibreOffice Base without much difficulty. Now his organisation is free from having to buy Access.

Re: If Microsoft was a person...

@escapee

MS would also have to be placed in solitary confinement - for their own - and others' - safety.

Re: So if the PC dies

"mug you for more dosh"

- That's the Microsoft way. People are catching on. You don't have to get screwed - open source is professional, even best-of-class quality now. MS are milking their cash cow now for all it is worth, because it's about to keel over and they know it. But there are a few tens of billions in that ugly old ribbon-ised cow yet....

Re: They'll survive...

@AC 23:27 "their sheer size will ensure that"

Size ensured survival for the sauropods too... (Mind you, Sauropods did survive for a couple of epochs, to prove my analogy to be limited). The issue with running a mega-corporation is that you have huge operating costs. So you have to drum up a lot of business. Size helps in the sense you can go after mega-contracts in software services, but you can also lose a lot of money playing at the top. It's the same game but with higher stakes. EDS failed, mainly due to poor leadership.

Re: Rasberry Pi servers!

@AC - 17:08 - I never said Linux was blindingly fast on it. But I'd like to see you even try getting Windows to even install and boot on a Pi. That Linux runs on such lowly hardware to the point it can act as a functional server is a virtue of Linux.

Unix was replaced by Linux, Windows is next to be replaced by Linux.

But Linux is also taking share away from Windows. The future is Linux, there is no doubt about that. When IBM standardised on Linux for its server OS and ploughed a billion dollars a year investment into this strategy, Linux got the credibility it needed for serious enterprise work.

Linux is the work horse of Google, of Amazon, of FB and Twitter and all those big data companies. It also numbercrunched the Petabytes of data from the LHC on grids.

Windows has the advantage of lock-in. Outlook / Exchange / Active directory and to a lesser extent unusable junk like Sharepoint. But for real server work, Linux is needed. That is why Linux is dominating on Supercomputers, on Blades, on Big Data and indeed on Web Servers due to its superior performance and security. (As shown by IIS losing market share over the years)

Re: German Employment Agency

"Microsoft Server - 5,835 jobs"

- It's a well known fact that a Linux admin can administer more servers than a Windows admin, and that a Linux server handles more load (is more scalable) than a Windows server.

This means that if a company standardises on Windows then they will have to employ more people to administer them. That might sound good for employees but it's a nightmare for the employer as his costs shoot up and this makes him less competitive.

Re: Linux is a richer OS

@AC 16:55 - most people that use Linux tend to use the bash shell these days, so there's not really a problem in deciding what shell to use.

But other shells do exist for connoisseurs and hardcore power users of these things :)

As for OO: OO is not a great fit for the command line. If you want OO then use an OO language and use the command line to interact with it. I think that there are some nice python tools for the CLI too. The UNIX way is wise. See the Art Of Unix Programming for a nice reference.

PS Why are you ranting inanely about who is smart and who isn't? You make me feel smart though, because am smarter than you, obviously ;-)

Re: Linux is a richer OS

@1Rafayal "next week I will be upgrading to Windows 8."

Your forgiving opinion of MS might be strained by that forthcoming experience :)

Yes Linux and Windows are just tools, but Linux is the better tool for most tasks. I won't go further than that, as I have explained why Linux is superior elsewhere on the Reg. But the discussion was the CLI and Linux benefits there.

Re: Linux is a richer OS

@Boris the Cockroach - If you're a sys admin, then often you need to do the same tasks over and over again. That is where the command line is most useful, you can write scripts to do the repetitive stuff. It takes longer the first time but in future times it saves time.

If you're only doing things once, and the UI is more intuitive then go for it. I do't think anyone is saying never use the GUI. I use it a lot myself :) The discussion here, though is about sys-admin work, which, as I say, CLI can automate to great effect. Even single liners, re-accessed via "history" - are a god send.

Re: Vacuum state of the universe

@HolyFreakinGhost - thanks for some cracking insights.

Re: Linux is a richer OS

@1Rafayal "if Linux were the super-operating system you claim it to be, then how come Microsoft are still in business?"

- The answer is this: send me a memo when the best tech wins in business. MS have one competency - if one can call that - they know how to rip off governments and corporations. They shovel their crap on desktops and servers and - amazingly - people pay good money for it. Mind you, it hasn't worked for them in mobile.

Having said that, Linux is now highly accepted in business as an enterprise strength system, in fact, the best in class. So MS's ability to sell crap into the data centre is diminishing.

On the desktop they have lock-in such as Outlook and excel macros but again this lock-in is weakening. They used to have a lockin on IE6 active X apps but now Corps and even govts are wising up and opting to finance open systems.

Re: Linux is a richer OS

@AC 12:23 - sometimes GUI is better, sometimes CLI is better blah blah blah. FYI, you can use gui's with Linux systems, AC, if you had ever used Linux you would know that.

Regarding the CLI - two things. Firstly the Linux CLI is vastly superior to the mickey mouse windows DOS and Powershell toy CLIs.

Secondly you can small tasks quickly with mouse clicks, but for large, repeatable tasks, you want CLI capability. A Linux guri will write a command line script to do something. Then in the future he can re-run the script. A Windows "guru" will keep clicking on the buttons, waiting for the next screen to come up as Windows slowly thrashes some crap file system to death.

Real men administer Linux. Boys like Windows for the pretty UI - what is it on Windows 2013 Server? Metro? - mmmmmmmmmmmmkay. And to repeat, Linux has Window managers, you have a choice it's not CLI only unless you want it to be.

P.S. CLI is much more convenient for remote administration of machines. And CLI-only servers need less resources, Windows tends to be pretty resource-heavy.

To sum up, the Linux CLI allows the admin to maximise his productivity.

Re: Of course Samsung innovates...

@Longrod_von_Hugendong

ChromeOS is aimed not at tablets but at the newly vacated netbook niche. It's not too late, it's timing is actually rather good, since MS artificially assassinated the netbook market. Now we will can wait and see how MS will react to this threat to its desktop monopoly.

Re: Ah....oh dear....

@mmeier Android isn't windows. It has different use cases. If you are locked into Windows then you either reduce your lock-in or stay with Windows. Conversely, Android does a ton of stuff that windows cannot do, which is a point you do not make. :)

Re: Ah....oh dear....

@Mark - "Windows 8 has it built it (and if it's like Security Essentials, it never bothers you anyway - it was only the stuff like AVG that constantly pesters you"

BUT this AV stuff (that only Windows needs) is unreliable, virus writers write viruses to evade these flakey defences. And those defences can sometimes turn on the host system and attack it, locking quarantining system files and the like. Also they thrash your hardware and burn resources.

I disagree with your other points but zooming to:

"- it made no sense when they cost more than a similarly specced laptop even with the Windows licence fee"

Windows needs more resources and runs hotter than other operating systems. So you need more powerful specs to run windows at the same speed as other operating systems. That's without the Windows Licence fee overhead, which comes at a high price relative to the cost of the hardware.

Re: Netbook market

@1Rafayal Ironically, I just made exactly the same point to another poster:) You are correct, mea culpa, I should have said, Linux Distro such as Mint.

Re: Netbook market

@Larry Crapbeans

"Google will never ship them with a Linux OS or make reference to Linux because they know it confuses and scares people which is why they've been smart and played the long game" -

- Google *already* have shipped ChromeBooks with Linux. ChromeOS is Linux - the kernel is Linux.

What you probably mean is, Google will never use the "Linux" brand. Which is a fair guess. They didn't with Android.

BTW - when netbooks first appeared, they came with Linux and they were cheap, fast and all the rage. MS had to intervene and fast.

Re: Azure lost data for more than a week

@AC - FYI - the Reg reported on this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/15/microsoft_azure_sql_reporting_cleanup/

Re: Vacuum state of the universe

HolyFreakinGhost - many thanks for debating. It's unusual to have a deep intellectual discussion on El Reg :)

When I said, FYI - I was teasing ya, I knew you knew that the Q stood for Quantum, obviously. In general I think we agree more than we disagree.

Funding bodies - yes indeedy. My understanding is that these guys are often making poor decisions based on politics and risk-aversion, not science.

I can't resist just one trifle of a quibble. To my mind, there's not much of a qualitative difference between 40 and 120 orders of mag in this context (although a massive quantitative difference, obviously!). Both of those numbers point to exactly the same conclusion. We don't understand cosmology. Whether we don't understand it by 10^40 or 10^120 makes no odds to the binary conclusion :)

Cheers.

Re: Take the red pill

@madra "LibreOffice looks like some java app from the wrong end of the 1990s." - pure FUD that makes you seem out of touch.

To take LibreOffice 4 it's got a perfectly stylish UI. Give me a tasteful menu and customisable toolbars over the wretched Ribbon or something that is "shiny" any day. I am there to get stuff done, not faff about with some style-over-substance UI that gets annoying fast. What's wrong with LibreOffice 4 in terms of the UI? Nothing! It's perfectly fine, it's not distracting, it gets out of your way, it does what you need.

Re: Mail

"VBA and macros embedded in more Excel spreadsheets and Word templates than I would care to count, analyse, debug and re-implement"

LibreOffice is getting better at running these. And you have to go through that exercise when updating MS Office anyway, as "upgrades" break stuff. So you may as well port to LibreOffice, which supports the same VBA code.

Yes macros lock people in, but not most people. Only a minority of office users use or need extensive macros.

Re: Mail

@Admiral Grace Hopper

You are so then years ago. The world has gone mobile. We are living in a post-PC epoch, didn't you get the memo?

Corporation wide email does not need exchange - exchange is expensive and you end up with a far-from-secure email system with Windows/exchange.

These days cross-portability between different platforms is what matters and Exchange is bad at that, and the world is moving away from MS-only solutions. I'd argue that googe's systems are far more integrated than Exchange will ever be. Exchange is only integrated with Windows systems, it interoperates poorly with non-exchange systems.

Re: Mail

@bill gould you are locked into the MS world and cannot see that the world is moving away from the MS world now - e.g. Android syncs with google's calendar and other systems too - which is far more convenient than any expensive Exchange server / outlook bloat on a desktop can give me.

Re: In other words, $20 isn't going to sway anyone - WRONG

@AC 50:56 "@Eadon Don't be so literal."

I know what Testman means and I was not being literal. Reread my post more carefully, especially the bit where I say,

"where x is much greater than 0"

Note the "MUCH".

"In fact, the price rise will earn more than they lose from the few people unwilling to pay the small incremental increase"

- That is what MS is gambling on, but, you know, it is a gamble. The is usually a non-linear relationship between the price someone is willing to pay and the number of people willing to pay that price. A relatively small difference percentage wise can lead to a really big difference in the number of customers. That can happen for a number of reasons, it's basic economics.

So both you and Testman are wrong.

Re: Vacuum state of the universe

@HolyFreakingGhost - "sufficiently different from both the boiling and the freezing of water that neither is particularly close an analogy"

The freezing is the MORE apt analogy as the universe goes from a higher to a lower energy state, giving off energy as latent heat. Boiling requires an energy supply to keep it going, it requires latent heat or it fizzles out (at the familiar temperature environment).

"[vacuum energy] No, inflation doesn't have too much to do with that"

Reducing vacuum energy is a huge motivation for the inflation hack. You say yourself that inflation "solves" the horizon problem, but that is directly connected to the vacuum energy. Also FYI, the standard model does not predict monopoles - but they do show up in various extensions of it.

"by which I assume you mean QFT"

FYI QFT - the Q in QFT stands for quantum. Just a clue :) QFT is quantum mechanics when applied to fields such as, and not limited, to those of the Standard Model.

"I think, which is still pretty horrific." - There's no "thinking" about it. It IS horrific when your sums are more than 1 order of mag out, let alone 40+.

That quantum gravity has much to say about inflation - assuming it happened - is not controversial. Is there some funding-related group-think that says that the inflaton is not related to gravity?